2020 Toyota GR Supra new car reviews

The new 2020 Toyota Supra is finally here, and we’ve got the scoop on how we think this car will perform as your next track toy. We got the chance to drive the all-new 2020 Supra at Toyota’s North American media launch at Summit Point Motorsports Park, and came away feeling that it was a good track car off the showroom floor, and just a few key mods away from greatness.

The chassis is extremely driver-friendly—almost too driver friendly at times, as you have to remind yourself to keep a light grip on the steering wheel as it doesn’t respond well to clumsy inputs. But that light touch is rewarded with true nimbleness, and good grip. The grip is especially excellent under complex dynamic situations, like exiting a bumpy turn under power, or braking over a crest in the road. It’s a car that does multiple things at the same time with nary a complaint.

The nits we can pick on track are mostly things that will be upgraded anyway. The factory Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires are an amazing all-around tire, but a set of more dedicated track tires like BFG Rival Ss or Bridgestone RE71Rs would sharpen that little bit of dullness on corner entry. It would reduce that momentary soft spot between action and reaction that is typical of even the best street tires. Likewise the brake pads could be swapped for a bit more aggressive compound and that little bit of high-temperature softness that occurs with the stock pads will likely disappear.

Much has been said about Toyota’s decision to use an 8-speed automatic transmission connected to the 335hp inline-6 instead of a true manual or dual-clutch trans. Probably the best thing we can say about that is don’t panic. It’s fine. Shifts are crisp, positive, and well-timed to the paddles in manual mode. And there’s little noticeable torque converter lag between the throttle and the drive wheels. The connection feels very direct, and makes it easy to adjust the cornering attitude of the car with the go-pedal.

Here's our compete video review of the new Supra:

 

For a lengthy discussion of technical details from the media launch, we devoted an entire live show to the new car. It’s got tons of content right from the designers and engineers for the new Supra, as well as speculation and commentary from our viewers and host. Check it out here:

 

If you just want the exciting sights and sounds, here’s a couple laps of the Shenandoah Circuit at Summit Point Motorsports Park with no annoying commentary or music: 

 

If you're just here for the photos, check out our full gallery below:

 

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HapDL
HapDL New Reader
5/12/19 5:06 p.m.

Possibly the ugliest car ever designed.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
5/12/19 5:25 p.m.
HapDL said:

Possibly the ugliest car ever designed.

I was gonna say in that color it reminds me of a large RF.

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
5/12/19 5:28 p.m.

I kind of dig the overall look, but the front end below the headlights is way too busy. 

That said, I do appreciate that the look of the lights and rear end are a nice throwback to teh previous Supra (though I never liked how those looked either, in truth). 

But looks are irrelevant at this point for me. If it's not offered with a traditional manual, it's not on my list of things to look at buying for my next car, no matter how good the automatic is or what other features the car might have. 

TJL
TJL Reader
5/12/19 5:31 p.m.
HapDL said:

Possibly the ugliest car ever designed.

It looks kinda ug to me. Gap tooth, google eye, high rear end. That thing is all over the place. 

It looks nice from the side. I think the Z4 looks much better, at least less visually offensive to me. The 90’s supra looked very good to me. Probably the last toyota that i thought looked good. 

This is like the weird mashup of a viper gts(roof bumps) and a alfa romeo giulia. 

I’d never be a potential customer for one in general, but yeah, without a real manual transmission, definitely a no-go. 

jr02518
jr02518 Reader
5/12/19 6:09 p.m.

Having spent some time with a 1999 Z3 M Coupe, both on the track and long drives at speed, I am looking for some time in this car. Yes, the dork has a stick and it is also sporting a supercharger, but the rear suspension is at best a compromise

I for one have given into the "8" speed, I did a SCCA time trials at Buttonwillow in a Camaro SS 1LE and I now know it's better than I am.

I would second getting it on a set of RE-71's, those I have no issue with. They work in the damp as well as dry.  Can you turn off the Nannies?

 

  

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
5/12/19 6:20 p.m.

Not a pretty car... like most cars these days, it looks like it was designed by committee.

And that console...  looks like it was designed for the RHD version??

It does sound nice, though...  smiley

 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/12/19 6:56 p.m.
jr02518 said:

Having spent some time with a 1999 Z3 M Coupe, both on the track and long drives at speed, I am looking for some time in this car. Yes, the dork has a stick and it is also sporting a supercharger, but the rear suspension is at best a compromise

I for one have given into the "8" speed, I did a SCCA time trials at Buttonwillow in a Camaro SS 1LE and I now know it's better than I am.

I would second getting it on a set of RE-71's, those I have no issue with. They work in the damp as well as dry.  Can you turn off the Nannies?

 

  

All the nannies turn off fairly easily, actually. It's very track-friendly in that regard.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
5/12/19 7:08 p.m.

It’s growing on me.  I’m starting to like it.

MichaelYount
MichaelYount HalfDork
5/12/19 7:35 p.m.

Sorry - can't get past the fact that it's just a (barely) re-bodied BMW.  And what's with a "track test" with no detailed performance numbers?

Karacticus
Karacticus Dork
5/12/19 7:42 p.m.

Is that a harness bar I see behind the seats?

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
5/12/19 8:02 p.m.

 

Well played

former520
former520 HalfDork
5/12/19 8:18 p.m.

I want to be the first to call the faux harness bar the 'birth control bar'.  Named due to the fact it keeps the seat from being reclined all the way back!

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/12/19 8:37 p.m.
MichaelYount said:

Sorry - can't get past the fact that it's just a (barely) re-bodied BMW.  

82 242-6.2L Volvo; '17 Mazda3; '16 X-Trek

Serious question: Why is this a bad thing?

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/12/19 8:56 p.m.

I like it. I'll take one in black or white, please! 

jr02518
jr02518 Reader
5/12/19 9:12 p.m.

JG,

Can the screen in the middle of the dash, the one that obstructs your vision be made to disappear?

Or at least turn it off?

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
5/12/19 9:17 p.m.

While it has a pretty side profile, things drastically change when moving either direction. When I see the nose, I see this:

And when we move the the back, I see:

and if you think that means I like the ass end of this car, no. No way.  It looks like the flat pancake I’ve pictured above, with a thong sticking out, awkwardly. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
5/12/19 9:22 p.m.

In a break from all the hate...

Do you have a close up/higher res shot that includes the top of the strut tower?  Usually this is a stamped area... I'm curious how they are building the strengthening ribs into it.  

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS HalfDork
5/12/19 9:37 p.m.

Love it.  No manual, no PDK, only auto....  really dislike that.

parker
parker Reader
5/12/19 9:59 p.m.

In reply to HapDL :

Have you seen the Civic Type R?

 

As for the new Supra.  I agree with most of the sentiments here.  It's ugly and no manual.  No thank you.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/12/19 10:01 p.m.
jr02518 said:

JG,

Can the screen in the middle of the dash, the one that obstructs your vision be made to disappear?

Or at least turn it off?

I think you can turn it off, but it's not really in the eyeline. From where you sit the top of the screen is below the end of the dash. Never bugged me at all.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/12/19 10:04 p.m.
AnthonyGS said:

Love it.  No manual, no PDK, only auto....  really dislike that.

But, it works just fine. If you got in the car and I told you it was a dual clutch I bet you wouldn't know the difference. It goes up when you press up, down when you press down, and there's no converter lag noticeable. Everyone is getting way too hung up on details and not paying enough attention to how the thing actually works.

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UltimaDork
5/12/19 10:20 p.m.

I like it.

But...

For the price they are asking, I'll imagine driving a much better car that I also can't afford. $55k, $250k or $1,000,000, it's all the same past a certain point for me.

jr02518
jr02518 Reader
5/12/19 10:26 p.m.

JG,

Cal Club is having an event the weekend of June 8-9th at Buttonwillow that includes a Time Trial, the event is going to be run counter clockwise.  I volunteer to focus on how it works.

I might have the M Coupe to do a comparison, if that helps.

David 

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
5/12/19 10:33 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
MichaelYount said:

Sorry - can't get past the fact that it's just a (barely) re-bodied BMW.  

82 242-6.2L Volvo; '17 Mazda3; '16 X-Trek

Serious question: Why is this a bad thing?

There are differences between a Toyota and a BMW beyond just the badge. How it’s built and serviced, how reliable it is, and how it “feels.” Does this feel like a bmw or a Toyota? Why buy this over the z4? 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/12/19 10:44 p.m.
dculberson said:
Why buy this over the z4? 

See, this is a better question.

And the answer is: I'm not sure yet.

Honestly I need to sit down and compare spec for spec and dollar for dollar with both configurators at some point. At this point, as cars, I feel they're close, but the Supra felt... sharper? More urgent? than the Z4 we had recently. Part of that could have been the conditions. I mostly drive the Supra on teh track while I drove the Z4 entirely on the street. But if both were lined up in the paddock and I had to take some laps, I'd grab the Supra key first.

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS HalfDork
5/12/19 11:56 p.m.

I am focusing on how it works.  An 8 spd auto is fine for a daily driver or even drag racer.  Having driven PDK and manual cars in a hurry, I haven’t found a torque converter equipped trans their equal yet.  We all know manuals are a dying thing, but returning to torque converters in celebration isn’t enticing when auto shift dual clutch transmissions are common tech.  

This just feels like toyota accounting made this decision and the engineers made the best of an e36 m3 sandwich.  Color me sad.  

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
5/13/19 12:10 a.m.

Serious question: Why is this a bad thing?

Because modern BMWs are a pain in the ass to own? I have a bunch of acquaintances working at the bmw dealer here in San Antonio which is now the biggest in north america and they have a comical amount of work. 

But, I also think it's inadequately differentiated as far as the interior and inelegant on the exterior. I just don't think you should put a halo nameplate on somebody else's mid-range with anything less than a stunning rework, especially when the bmw and toyota reputations for reliability are polar opposites. It may be a good car in its own right, but it's still sort of analogous to a Chrysler Crossfire in the context of trying to halo-ize somebody else's midrange car and analogous to a Crossfire is something I just wish a Supra wasn't. 

MichaelYount
MichaelYount HalfDork
5/13/19 6:10 a.m.

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

1) For my taste and car enjoyment, BMW have lost their way big time starting a good decade ago; 2) I was hoping Toyota would actually build/engineer a new car -- so, it's not a "Supra" - it's a BMW.  Nothing new to see here.

Carbon
Carbon UltraDork
5/13/19 6:13 a.m.

If the new corvette came out and was a rebodied mustang maybe you’d understand. To us it’s an insult. 

MichaelYount
MichaelYount HalfDork
5/13/19 6:14 a.m.

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

"Everyone is getting way too hung up on details...."

Seriously?  LOL.....

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
5/13/19 6:31 a.m.

Pinanafarina as a styling company is cool. Toyota as a styling company is not cool. 

None of that takes away from it being a good car which it appears to be. I hope it finds the buyers that Toyota is looking for.

gunner
gunner HalfDork
5/13/19 7:04 a.m.

From what I understand the Supra is meant to be a direct competitor to the Cayman and the Z4 to the Boxter. they are aping certain details such as the wheelbase at 97.4 inches, and at a lower price point especially optioned out. I think that if enough of these sell, there will be a manual transmission in its future, in the mean time people will definitely gripe about it, then when it comes out 15 to 20% of Supra buyers will opt for the manual.

maj75
maj75 HalfDork
5/13/19 7:06 a.m.

I could have gotten one of the first batch of these new Supras to hit the dealers.  I’ve been waiting for this car for a long time, but I wasn’t obsessing over the interminable wait and rumors.  I thought Toyota would get it right.

I was wrong.  The FRS should have warned me.  I bought two of them new.  Tracked them.  But the Subaru collaboration should have been the tip-off.  Toyota is SO risk adverse, despite their vast R&D budget, they won’t risk a clean sheet design.

I’d have been happy with the ISF/RCF motor stuffed into a FRS.  I’d have been happy with a lightweight “Supra” version of the RCF as long as it had a manual transmission.  But a 2 seater with a BMW turbo drivetrain?  No thanks, I’d rather have a root canal.  BMW lost me when they dropped the V8 from the M3 (and F**ked with the BMW model designations since time immemorial). The latest crop of turbo BMWs are maintenance nightmares.  The BMW fanboys will continue to line up for whatever Munich churns out, M2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.

Supra fans will just be sad.

pinchvalve
pinchvalve MegaDork
5/13/19 7:54 a.m.

Great coverage. I can't help wonder how Toyota (and other press departments) view GRM. Years ago, GRM probably didn't even get an invite; too little, too specialized, not part of some giant conglomerate. Now, they have the highest page count, the most loyal readers, a large circulation, and a massive web presence, so they definitely get an invite.  But while they must worry about other hack journalists stuffing their press fleet into the tire wall, they probably wait for GRM to see what their cars can really do on track. Regardless of my feelings about the car being covered, the coverage was top-notch. 

BigD
BigD Reader
5/13/19 8:43 a.m.
JG Pasterjak said:

Serious question: Why is this a bad thing?

Why is it a good thing? I mean for us, not for Toyota. I get it for them, the domestics have done it forever, esp Chrysler. It looks fine, I'm sure it works fine. So yeah, it's fine... is that really a good thing? With the rabid popularity of the Supra namesake (whatever the reason and regardless if you feel it's valid or not), they could have resurrected the name to give the fans of the name something really cool. Instead, they gave us something that's fine. Yes, it's easy and cheap for them and they'll sell a bunch of them by calling it a Supra.

The looks have somewhat grown on me, I no longer think it's repulsive, I think it's fine (I actually dig the rear quarter angle). I'm sure the transmission is fine, the performance is fine. It's a perfectly adequate sports car for a reasonable price. I will consider picking up a used one in a few years if the values don't hold up, as my wife outgrows the BRZ on track.

But why call it a Supra? It's like when Dodge brought back the Charger name for a 4 door derp sedan. It's just a way to capitalize on the credit from the name while burning the minimum amount of dollar calories.

And they clearly know it. That's why they arranged this whole youtuber apology session (who I think got screwed because now we get flooded with a dozen of these videos at once), trying to convince us that it's not a BMW, that they have their own engine tune, transmission tune, suspension and chassis. If you don't look behind the curtain, that sounds like it's really a totally different car since they hit on most of the major components. But the reality is that any one of us muppets can change out the dampers and springs to whatever, put on a carbon hood and hatch, flash a tune... and what, we can claim that we just built our own car from scratch? Nope, just a modded BMW. Hell, my car has nothing left from the factory besides some of the unibody sheet metal and the windshield. I still call it an E30. 

It's not a bad thing. It's just not good, it's fine. And they could have done much better than fine. What if Honda or Ford rebadged a Cayman and called it an NSX or GT, with some new bodywork, suspension bits and tune, would it be a good thing? 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/13/19 8:46 a.m.

Really can't get over the looks of this thing at any angle.  That, plus no manual (and a torque converter!), and a BMW underneath, kinda kills any desire for them.  Cayman is a better car, for me, on almost every dimension (better looking, manual, lighter, etc.)

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/13/19 8:48 a.m.

In reply to BigD :

Well said.  

Also, seems quite a few of us here have/had twins.  

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/13/19 10:30 a.m.

In reply to maj75 :

Made me think how awesome the IS F v8 being stuffed in this new Supra. Goodness! 

thatsnowinnebago
thatsnowinnebago SuperDork
5/13/19 11:22 a.m.

It's weird seeing iDrive and almost the same shifter as a new 3-series in a Toyota. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 11:28 a.m.

I'M MAD ABOUT A CAR I WAS NEVER GOING TO BUY!!!!!!

 

So much hate, it's hysterical. From watching the videos, that 8spd seems to shift even faster than the DCT in my 135. Who cares what the actual tech is as long as it performs well?

I'm trying to understand the hate about "derp it's a BMW engine derp derp" it would take HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars for Toyota to design a brand new engine, for a sports car that is going not going to sell very much. Roll that engine development into the price of the car? It just went from $50k to $90k. 

But please, keep complaining about a car you never intended to buy regardless. 

 

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
5/13/19 11:47 a.m.
dculberson said:

Why buy this over the z4? 

I'm trying to find specific numbers, but I believe that the Supra is a couple hundred lbs lighter than the Z4.

For those of you up in arms about Torque Converter! I ask whether you've ever driven a car with one of these modern ZF paddle shift automatics. They've set the standard for sports cars and sports sedans for more than a decade and are really, really good.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
5/13/19 11:57 a.m.

I think it's a pretty good-looking car, and I don't care that it has BMW parts, and I don't have a big problem with the manually shiftable auto trans. If I had the money for one of these, I might consider buying one. The trouble is that it starts well above the base price of a Giulia and is getting close to the price of a Corvette or Cayman. The Supra has some advantages, it should be cheaper to run than the others and is much smaller than the Corvette. But then it's not nearly as fast as a Corvette, and it also doesn't have an H-pattern manual option which is a negative for a mixed street/track car IMO, mainly because an H-pattern is more enjoyable to drive but also because it's more reliable and cheaper to maintain.

If they knocked 10 grand off of the price of this car it would both give it a sizable price advantage over the competition and put it closer to the reach of Gen. Y'ers who are more likely to want a car called a Supra. At this price point it has to compete not only with more prestigious and sometimes much faster new cars, but also with compelling used/aftermarket options like a modded Toyobaru, a used Elise, or a used Viper. It might end up being the Han Solo movie of cars: pretty good in itself, but not good enough to draw customers away from the competition it gave itself.

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
5/13/19 11:58 a.m.

The only reason they're using a BMW engine is because they're using a BMW car. They put 300+hp 2GR toyota 6cyls in $100k Lexus cars and 400+hp variants in Lotii. It's not that they couldn't use an engine they already had or that it wouldn't be good enough, it's that it wouldn't be worth the money to engineer a toyota engine into a bmw car. So, the fundamental problem of the toyota halo car isn't that it has a bmw engine, it's that it's not a toyota car

I'm so totally onboard with Mr. Toyoda's drive to make Toyota make sporty cars again, but a 'decent badge engineering job on a pretty good bmw' is not really what anyone wanted to see. No, im not paying Toyota to make what i want, but neither is Toyota paying me to NOT express my opinion about it. For the record, my silence is certainly for sale. PM/DM for pricing options. 

ShinnyGroove
ShinnyGroove New Reader
5/13/19 12:00 p.m.

I think it looks great. If it really does offer Cayman S performance under a Toyota badge at $50k, I could see myself owning one of these. 

MTechnically
MTechnically Reader
5/13/19 12:15 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I don't think it's a fair write off opinions on a car based on whether or not people holding those opinions can afford the car in question or not.

As others have pointed out, there are a few avenues of criticism that warrant at least some discussion. It really does seem like Toyota missed the mark by not leveraging the performance platforms from the rest of their portfolio (IS/RC/LC) in order to give the Supra a truly Toyota lineage.

I'm sure the MKV Supra will be a good car to drive, but will it actually live up to the Supra name? It's hard to say definitively. But it does feel like they played it too conservative in sharing so much of the platform with another company.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
5/13/19 12:19 p.m.
MichaelYount said:

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

1) For my taste and car enjoyment, BMW have lost their way big time starting a good decade ago; 2) I was hoping Toyota would actually build/engineer a new car -- so, it's not a "Supra" - it's a BMW.  Nothing new to see here.

Toyota lost their way long before BMW imo.  I mean they killed the Supra in 98,  then the next sports car  they come out with is Subaru powered 15 years later?  I can get more excited about a BMW drivetrain in it than another Subaru.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
5/13/19 12:23 p.m.
Vigo said:

For the record, my silence is certainly for sale. PM/DM for pricing options. 

Quoteworthy!

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
5/13/19 12:25 p.m.

It's their "flagship model" that they spent so many years teasing. And it's not really a collaboration, let's be honest here. It's a Z4 coupe with a body designed by Toyota, built by Magna Steyr in Austria. 

I could be in the target market and can absolutely afford the car, but it's just such a bummer to see every little thing you touch and see and hear inside the car be pulled directly from BMW. Toyota's flagship sports car has a BMW key, a BMW drivetrain, BMW iDrive, and goes blungggg when you open the door. They have succeeded at making a Z4 coupe, but it is disappointing because of so much buildup that lead to what quacks and walks like a BMW.

It's great that it's so good to drive, because I always saw the older Mk3/4 Supras as big GT cars. So yay, it's a sports car and it can exist in the 2019+ market of bland crossovers. That is fantastic and should not be discounted.

But really, the door chime? That's just some quick programming that was lazily ignored.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 12:42 p.m.
MTechnically said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I don't think it's a fair write off opinions on a car based on whether or not people holding those opinions can afford the car in question or not.

As others have pointed out, there are a few avenues of criticism that warrant at least some discussion. It really does seem like Toyota missed the mark by not leveraging the performance platforms from the rest of their portfolio (IS/RC/LC) in order to give the Supra a truly Toyota lineage.

I'm sure the MKV Supra will be a good car to drive, but will it actually live up to the Supra name? It's hard to say definitively. But it does feel like they played it too conservative in sharing so much of the platform with another company.

Where did I say anything about "afford" I said "never intended to buy."

As the post above me shows, there are plenty of people on this forum that can afford a $50-60k vehicle. We knew this was a BMW/Toyota collaboration for years now, so I'm confused about the OUTRAGE that seems to have popped up. 

It has a slick new auto that shifts just as fast, if not faster, than the DCT in my car. Makes plenty of power, has lots of tire, runs a 4 sec 0-60. 

I'm sure the B58 reponds well to tuning and mods (the N55 in my car picks up 70hp and 100lb-ft with just a tune, still on 91).

"It's not Toyota enough" if it was, it wouldn't exist. Just like the Twins, of which I owned one. 

Sorry I get tired of the constant hate for cars that aren't 100% perfect (which they will never be for anyone), let's be happy they exist, and use our dollars to go out and buy them so they keep exisiting. 

I fully intend to put my money where my mouth is and trade my 135 in on one next year. 

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UltimaDork
5/13/19 12:43 p.m.
z31maniac said:

I'M MAD ABOUT A CAR I WAS NEVER GOING TO BUY!!!!!!

 

it would take HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars for Toyota to design a brand new engine, for a sports car that is going not going to sell very much. Roll that engine development into the price of the car?


Toyota has engines they could use now. Granted, it wouldn't be an inline six, but you know what? A modern Supra wasn't required to have an inline six. 

 

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/13/19 12:58 p.m.

I just looked at the 2020 Z4, that front end is yuck! The Cayman S manual starting at $69k Gah! I wonder how much the 2014/2015 S's are going for

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 1:00 p.m.
Brett_Murphy said:
z31maniac said:

I'M MAD ABOUT A CAR I WAS NEVER GOING TO BUY!!!!!!

 

it would take HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars for Toyota to design a brand new engine, for a sports car that is going not going to sell very much. Roll that engine development into the price of the car?


Toyota has engines they could use now. Granted, it wouldn't be an inline six, but you know what? A modern Supra wasn't required to have an inline six. 

 

And? They decided having a straight six was a requirement, so instead of spending a huge chunk developing a new one, they went to best in the biz. If so many are pissed about a BMW I6, imagine the hate if it was a hybrid turbo I4?

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
5/13/19 1:02 p.m.
Cotton said:
MichaelYount said:

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

1) For my taste and car enjoyment, BMW have lost their way big time starting a good decade ago; 2) I was hoping Toyota would actually build/engineer a new car -- so, it's not a "Supra" - it's a BMW.  Nothing new to see here.

Toyota lost their way long before BMW imo.  I mean they killed the Supra in 98,  then the next sports car  they come out with is Subaru powered 15 years later?  I can get more excited about a BMW drivetrain in it than another Subaru.

MR2 Spyder? That's most definitely a sports car, and was around until 2005.

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
5/13/19 1:05 p.m.

It appears to be a pretty awesome car!


I agree that the negativity in this thread is rather high. The car has a lot going for it! It's not perfect, but nothing is. It's not like the release of an all new, non-exotic, smaller 2-seater sports car is a common thing. Thinking back over the last say 15 years, you have this, the twins and umm... Do the Alpine A110 and Alpha 4C count as non-exotic? Cars like this are key to keeping our shared hobbies and interests alive.

Also, who cares if it doesn't have "Toyota DNA." Why does that matter? Brands and names are for marketing purposes. It's one thing to turn an Eclipse into a crossover, it's another complain about a great new sports car in the same vein as the originals, same engine type/layout, etc.

MTechnically
MTechnically Reader
5/13/19 1:07 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

So you're outraged over people's outrage? Poking a bit of fun, but it does seem like a bit of a pot and kettle situation. It's simply a fact of life that you can't please everyone, but my point was to simply say that not all the criticism is illegitimate. Obviously you like the car and none of the controversial decisions have swayed you from that position, but just because you aren't bothered doesn't mean other people don't have the right to be.

I think you're right when it comes to the point about just appreciating the cool stuff that is out there, but this is a car forum after all and arguing is a big part of any enthusiast community...

mad_machine
mad_machine MegaDork
5/13/19 1:14 p.m.
HapDL said:

Possibly the ugliest car ever designed.

I was going comment that there is not a good angle to shoot that car from.

This is the Z4 in drag? I think I would rather have the Z4M

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/13/19 1:18 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

1) Not true.  Probably not safe to assume people's financial situations on an internet forum.  Just because it says Grassroots on top left doesn't mean everyone here can't afford a nice new car. 

2) Even if it's someone who will not buy it new, these cars will become used cars, and at some point it becomes accessible to a much wider audience.  

3) Is it a better strategy to have a potentially mediocre car that has mediocre sales vs. one with a more expensive car that might have better sales?  PLus, how much of the profit margin is going to BMW vs. Toyota?  I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I don't think it's as clear as you seem to think.  

 

Edit: scratch out #1 and #2.  I read it one way, and apparently that was not the intent.  Got it, apologies.  If the meaning was about not having intent to buy, I'd argue you're wrong for a diff reason.  Supras were the reason why i got into modding cars period.  I rode in one that was a BPU and the driver was racing Vipers on highways on that particular saturday night, and I was hooked.  No doubt plenty of people got interested in the car due to F&F.  So I think plenty of people would be interested in the car if it was what they wanted.  Do you really think that people complaining about the car not having a manual is an outrageous reaction from a dedicated car forum?  What about folks who do not want to deal with BMW service costs and reliability issues?  You may disagree with them as they might not be issues you care about, but they're hardly controversial perspectives.  

BigD
BigD Reader
5/13/19 1:41 p.m.

It's also a little odd defending an automobile manufacturer (esp the biggest one) choosing not to manufacture an automobile. There may be good business reasons for it but that doesn't make it any less lame.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 1:43 p.m.
Snrub said:

It appears to be a pretty awesome car!


I agree that the negativity in this thread is rather high. The car has a lot going for it! It's not perfect, but nothing is. It's not like the release of an all new, non-exotic, smaller 2-seater sports car is a common thing. Thinking back over the last say 15 years, you have this, the twins and umm... Do the Alpine A110 and Alpha 4C count as non-exotic? Cars like this are key to keeping our shared hobbies and interests alive.

Also, who cares if it doesn't have "Toyota DNA." Why does that matter? Brands and names are for marketing purposes. It's one thing to turn an Eclipse into a crossover, it's another complain about a great new sports car in the same vein as the originals, same engine type/layout, etc.

This guy, he gets it. 

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
5/13/19 1:53 p.m.
dculberson said:
Cotton said:
MichaelYount said:

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

1) For my taste and car enjoyment, BMW have lost their way big time starting a good decade ago; 2) I was hoping Toyota would actually build/engineer a new car -- so, it's not a "Supra" - it's a BMW.  Nothing new to see here.

Toyota lost their way long before BMW imo.  I mean they killed the Supra in 98,  then the next sports car  they come out with is Subaru powered 15 years later?  I can get more excited about a BMW drivetrain in it than another Subaru.

MR2 Spyder? That's most definitely a sports car, and was around until 2005.

True,  I forgot about that one.  

docwyte
docwyte UltraDork
5/13/19 2:02 p.m.

This car is a solid "Meh" for me.  I like the way it looks but let's get real, it's a BMW Z4.  Engine, transmission, interior = Z4.  It doesn't even make the 380hp you can get in the Z4. 

Ok, so Toyota tuned the suspension.  Yawn.  So we've got a nice looking car that's going to have BMW reliability, getting worked on at the Toyota dealer/techs who have no experience working on it. 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/13/19 2:06 p.m.
Brett_Murphy said:

Toyota has engines they could use now. Granted, it wouldn't be an inline six, but you know what? A modern Supra wasn't required to have an inline six. 

 

On the alternate timeline where Toyota used a turbo 4 in the Supra, this thread is equally as bitchy if not moreso than it currently is.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/13/19 2:09 p.m.
mad_machine said:
HapDL said:

Possibly the ugliest car ever designed.

I was going comment that there is not a good angle to shoot that car from.

This is the Z4 in drag? I think I would rather have the Z4M

Orbiting around the car, you find that there are a few angles where the thing is just drop-dead gorgeous. Then you move 1-degree away from that and it gets weird again. Any angle that evokes Viper-ness is solid. Dead profile and rear 3/4 are absolutely beautiful.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 2:09 p.m.
docwyte said:

This car is a solid "Meh" for me.  I like the way it looks but let's get real, it's a BMW Z4.  Engine, transmission, interior = Z4.  It doesn't even make the 380hp you can get in the Z4. 

Ok, so Toyota tuned the suspension.  Yawn.  So we've got a nice looking car that's going to have BMW reliability, getting worked on at the Toyota dealer/techs who have no experience working on it. 

Let's not act like changing a leaking oil pan or valve cover.....or water pump.....is significantly different between the marques of well any car. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 2:13 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
Brett_Murphy said:

Toyota has engines they could use now. Granted, it wouldn't be an inline six, but you know what? A modern Supra wasn't required to have an inline six. 

 

On the alternate timeline where Toyota used a turbo 4 in the Supra, this thread is equally as bitchy if not moreso than it currently is.

It's almost like I said that further up the page. :)

 

Look I get that not everyone likes, loves, etc, the car. I'm with JG that side, 3/4 view is achingly gorgeous, the front is still a bit weird for me. But it's growing on me. Even if it takes collaboration, I'm glad cars like this are still being built. 

Look at the twins, the only difference they had was the headlights and taillights, and some are complaining that the Zupra is just a rebodied Z4. So what? It's a much better looking car.

And I'll bet you a beer and a onion burner from Robert's in Enid, OK (the best there is in the world), that the only reason Toyota downtuned the engine was to make it sweeter for the tuners and keep that alive. 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/13/19 2:14 p.m.

In reply to Snrub :

I think the context is important.  As a self proclaimed japanese car fan boy I've been incredibly impressed by what GM has done with Camaro over the past few years.  Track spec options + warranty on track?  For $30k new car and the same weight as the Supra?!  So while it's not a bad car on an absolute basis the competition has improved quite a bit (not suggesting Camaro is the direct competitor, just an example).  

BigD
BigD Reader
5/13/19 2:22 p.m.
z31maniac said:

Look I get that not everyone likes, loves, etc, the car. I'm with JG that side, 3/4 view is achingly gorgeous, the front is still a bit weird for me. But it's growing on me. Even if it takes collaboration, I'm glad cars like this are still being built. 

Look at the twins, the only difference they had was the headlights and taillights, and some are complaining that the Zupra is just a rebodied Z4. So what? It's a much better looking car.

At the risk of putting words in people's mouths, I don't think anyone HATES this car. I doubt anyone seriously thinks it will be a bad car. I like the new Z4 and I'd never get a convertible, so effectively a Z4 coupe is a good option to consider. I think the so what is the name. Called anything else (edit: Celica?) it would be much better received. But the fact that it's just a decent sports car made by an unrelated manufacturer (and not even their top of the line like an M4), carrying the name is rubbing people the wrong way. Every other manufacturer put in the big bucks to engineer and tool up to produce a modern follow up to their halo cars (GTR, NSX, Ford GT...). Maybe the bar was set high but I think people expected something closer to a front-engined LFA. Or maybe only I did.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
5/13/19 2:35 p.m.
BigD said:

Maybe the bar was set high but I think people expected something closer to a front-engined LFA. 

Isn't a front-engined LFA just a... LFA?

BigD
BigD Reader
5/13/19 2:36 p.m.
Javelin said:
BigD said:

Maybe the bar was set high but I think people expected something closer to a front-engined LFA. 

Isn't a front-engined LFA just a... LFA?

D'OH... I seriously thought they're mid engined this whole time. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 2:50 p.m.
BigD said:
z31maniac said:

Look I get that not everyone likes, loves, etc, the car. I'm with JG that side, 3/4 view is achingly gorgeous, the front is still a bit weird for me. But it's growing on me. Even if it takes collaboration, I'm glad cars like this are still being built. 

Look at the twins, the only difference they had was the headlights and taillights, and some are complaining that the Zupra is just a rebodied Z4. So what? It's a much better looking car.

At the risk of putting words in people's mouths, I don't think anyone HATES this car. I doubt anyone seriously thinks it will be a bad car. I like the new Z4 and I'd never get a convertible, so effectively a Z4 coupe is a good option to consider. I think the so what is the name. Called anything else (edit: Celica?) it would be much better received. But the fact that it's just a decent sports car made by an unrelated manufacturer (and not even their top of the line like an M4), carrying the name is rubbing people the wrong way. Every other manufacturer put in the big bucks to engineer and tool up to produce a modern follow up to their halo cars (GTR, NSX, Ford GT...). Maybe the bar was set high but I think people expected something closer to a front-engined LFA. Or maybe only I did.

I'm not sure it's fair to compare a $50k car, to ones that cost more than double. Even when you adjust for inflation the current Zupra is markedly cheaper than if you tried to buy a TT Supra in 1997.

A GTR starts at $100k. 

An NSX starts at $158k.

And the Ford GT was around $500k, if you were able to buy one new. 

An M4 starts at $70k. An M5 starts at $103k!

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
5/13/19 2:54 p.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to Snrub :

I think the context is important.  As a self proclaimed japanese car fan boy I've been incredibly impressed by what GM has done with Camaro over the past few years.  Track spec options + warranty on track?  For $30k new car and the same weight as the Supra?!  So while it's not a bad car on an absolute basis the competition has improved quite a bit (not suggesting Camaro is the direct competitor, just an example).  

FWIW, a short wheelbase, two seat Camaro at a current Camaro price point would be awesome.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/13/19 3:24 p.m.
nderwater said:

FWIW, a short wheelbase, two seat Camaro at a current Camaro price point would be awesome.

I assume 2+2 isn't a deal breaker to most people (it only adds to flexibility), so is the short wheel base that desirable when other factors like track ready brakes and reasonable weight are checked off (serious question)?  

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
5/13/19 3:33 p.m.
bcp2011 said:
nderwater said:

FWIW, a short wheelbase, two seat Camaro at a current Camaro price point would be awesome.

I assume 2+2 isn't a deal breaker to most people (it only adds to flexibility), so is the short wheel base that desirable when other factors like track ready brakes and reasonable weight are checked off (serious question)?  

I think the Camaro is a serious performance value.  IMO a 4 door at current prices (ish) would be amazing, or 7/8 scale at current prices would be amazing (but not for me... currently).

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/13/19 3:40 p.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

But the existing product isn't amazing?  Don't get me wrong, I have a twin, so I appreciate the car for what it is, but that's more in regard to the weight, rather than the wheelbase.  Is the Camaro's wheelbase that big of a hinderance performance wise (I would think maybe it's not great for autox but better for tracks?)?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 3:56 p.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

But the existing product isn't amazing?  Don't get me wrong, I have a twin, so I appreciate the car for what it is, but that's more in regard to the weight, rather than the wheelbase.  Is the Camaro's wheelbase that big of a hinderance performance wise (I would think maybe it's not great for autox but better for tracks?)?

That's a good question. I used to own a twin (on Ground Controls, 18x9.5 RPFs and 255/35 Direzza Star Specs) I test drove a new Camaro SS 1LE back at the end of 2017.

It was an amazing car just in a short test drive (outside of the visibility). But being short, I found the ergonomics perfect for me, everything about it was perfect except me trying to justify to myself a $45k+ track that would rarely see the track. 

Long story short, the newer, heavier cars........they have really learned how to hide it with modern engineering. 

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UltimaDork
5/13/19 3:57 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
On the alternate timeline where Toyota used a turbo 4 in the Supra, this thread is equally as bitchy if not moreso than it currently is.

I was thinking of one of their V8s, actually.  That would make the Supra pretty super!

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/13/19 4:04 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I'm seriously contemplating a new turbo w/ 1LE for $30k in about a year or so.  It's just so much car for the money, and hopefully without chopping the car up I can lose a couple hundred pounds in the process.  In some ways the Camaro has become the standard in which I judge other cars (including the Supra) this side of a $50k sticker, which I would have never thought would be possible... 

Without the Camaro I think my opinion on the Supra actually would be more favorable, except its looks.

 

NOT A TA
NOT A TA Dork
5/13/19 4:20 p.m.

No thanks. I wouldn't want to have to look at it every day even if it was free. And, I'll add that I was given a (arguably better looking) free new car once and gave it back so it's not something I wouldn't do.

 

BigD
BigD Reader
5/13/19 4:25 p.m.
z31maniac said:

I'm not sure it's fair to compare a $50k car, to ones that cost more than double. Even when you adjust for inflation the current Zupra is markedly cheaper than if you tried to buy a TT Supra in 1997.

A GTR starts at $100k. 

An NSX starts at $158k.

And the Ford GT was around $500k, if you were able to buy one new. 

An M4 starts at $70k. An M5 starts at $103k!

But that's just it, the fact that it's not comparable is my problem. It's awesome that it's a 50k hardtop Z4 and I'm glad they're making it - the more options for us the better! But calling it a Supra carries baggage. The fact that it's not even in the class of an M3 (aka M4), let alone the GTR, which it was historically pitted against (and to a lesser extent, the NSX) is the source of the letdown in my opinion (compounded by the fact that it's a halo JDM car that's not Japanese). In a similar fashion, I'm personally annoyed that the forthcoming mid-engined car from GM will be called a Corvette. I'm sure it will be better than any other Corvette in every measurable way. But why must you call it a Corvette? Is it so hard to come up with a name for a new, awesome car? Or is cashing in on the brand more important... In the case of the Supra, I can't help but feel like it might hurt them more than had they either made it proportionally up-market to be on par with the GTR, or called it something else. But hey, opinions are like bootypipes, it will be interesting to see what happens regardless.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 4:57 p.m.
BigD said:
z31maniac said:

I'm not sure it's fair to compare a $50k car, to ones that cost more than double. Even when you adjust for inflation the current Zupra is markedly cheaper than if you tried to buy a TT Supra in 1997.

A GTR starts at $100k. 

An NSX starts at $158k.

And the Ford GT was around $500k, if you were able to buy one new. 

An M4 starts at $70k. An M5 starts at $103k!

But that's just it, the fact that it's not comparable is my problem. It's awesome that it's a 50k hardtop Z4 and I'm glad they're making it - the more options for us the better! But calling it a Supra carries baggage. The fact that it's not even in the class of an M3 (aka M4), let alone the GTR, which it was historically pitted against (and to a lesser extent, the NSX) is the source of the letdown in my opinion (compounded by the fact that it's a halo JDM car that's not Japanese). In a similar fashion, I'm personally annoyed that the forthcoming mid-engined car from GM will be called a Corvette. I'm sure it will be better than any other Corvette in every measurable way. But why must you call it a Corvette? Is it so hard to come up with a name for a new, awesome car? Or is cashing in on the brand more important... In the case of the Supra, I can't help but feel like it might hurt them more than had they either made it proportionally up-market to be on par with the GTR, or called it something else. But hey, opinions are like bootypipes, it will be interesting to see what happens regardless.

We just have different opinions. I don't care about the name, or some heritage, that stuff doesn't matter to me. And I realize I may be in the minority on this one.

Build a cool car with great performance...........I'm in. I like BMWs simple, minimal interiors. I also like an engine that makes peak torque from below 2k RPMs to nearly 6k RPMs. 

But I admit, I'm likely biased since I'm on my 4th BMW. They are a pain in the ass to own, expensive to maintain, but anytime a company releases a new coupe/sedan, at this price point, it's called "The M3/4 fighter." And for a good reason. The 3/M series cars have been the standard of relatively affordable coupes, that are drivers cars, for nearly 3 decades. 

BigD
BigD Reader
5/13/19 5:28 p.m.
z31maniac said:

We just have different opinions. I don't care about the name, or some heritage, that stuff doesn't matter to me. And I realize I may be in the minority on this one.

Build a cool car with great performance...........I'm in. I like BMWs simple, minimal interiors. I also like an engine that makes peak torque from below 2k RPMs to nearly 6k RPMs. 

But I admit, I'm likely biased since I'm on my 4th BMW. They are a pain in the ass to own, expensive to maintain, but anytime a company releases a new coupe/sedan, at this price point, it's called "The M3/4 fighter." And for a good reason. The 3/M series cars have been the standard of relatively affordable coupes, that are drivers cars, for nearly 3 decades. 

Not as different as you think, I agree with you but I was also hoping for more to be delivered under the Supra moniker. Like the analogy I gave before, the Cayman is an awesome car but if we were teased about the new NSX coming back for years, and then ending up with a flavor of Cayman, I'd be just as disappointed but it would in no way mean that I think it will be a bad car, or even that I wouldn't buy one.

And it's not even like I even like the JZA80 *ducks*. I always found them homely looking, especially from the front, and performance to be nothing special. But for this car, they didn't pick the name "Supra" just because they wanted to save money on printing badges or trademark costs. They picked it and teased it all this time because of what the name and the heritage means. So to put a finer point on it, my gripe isn't with the car but with Toyota.

I'm with you on BMWs, I'm an instructor with CCA, my first car was one and I've owned one since, including an E34 M5. This is what the engine bay of my E30 currently looks like and there's a NASCAR 4 speed behind all that, so purist I am not. But I do think certain car models evoke a formula that you as the manufacturer, betray at your own peril.

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/13/19 5:38 p.m.

We are closer than I thought! I like what you are doing with the S5x in the E30. 

One of my favorite cars ever was my S52, OBD-I swapped '88 325i. It put down 235whp, which in that tiny car is a blast. I can't imagine what you're looking at with that big hair dryer.

 

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
5/13/19 6:39 p.m.
BigD said:
But for this car, they didn't pick the name "Supra" just because they wanted to save money on printing badges or trademark costs. They picked it and teased it all this time because of what the name and the heritage means. 

This. 

The Supra is arguably Toyota's halo car, and 'deserves' more than just a rebadge on a BMW.  If Toyota had built a chassis around the BMW drivetrain, I'm guessing a lot of the critics here would have had much less of a problem with it, as it would have its own identity.  Body panels, suspension tuning and a few emblems doesn't show much effort on Toyota's part.

The Twins, IMHO, are an apples/oranges comparison.  That was a brand new platform, intended from the start to be a collaboration.  No history to live up to there.  Now, if they had called it a "Supra", I'm guessing it would have generated the same kind of ire as the current car, but at least the Twins are good looking cars. wink

maj75
maj75 HalfDork
5/13/19 7:07 p.m.
z31maniac said:

I'M MAD ABOUT A CAR I WAS NEVER GOING TO BUY!!!!!!

 

So much hate, it's hysterical. From watching the videos, that 8spd seems to shift even faster than the DCT in my 135. Who cares what the actual tech is as long as it performs well?

I'm trying to understand the hate about "derp it's a BMW engine derp derp" it would take HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars for Toyota to design a brand new engine, for a sports car that is going not going to sell very much. Roll that engine development into the price of the car? It just went from $50k to $90k. 

But please, keep complaining about a car you never intended to buy regardless. 

 

See Exhibit A: BMW fanboy.

They already have a perfectly great V8.  No one was asking for a BMW turbo motor.  And since you can’t read, I was intending to buy a new Supra.  If I wanted a BMW, I’d buy one.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
5/13/19 7:07 p.m.

In reply to Rodan :

Everyone's favorite YouTube car reviewer has a similar opionion.  (although I disagree on your history point - there was a great deal of hype around the twins being the second coming of the AE86).

Doug also disagrees somewhat with JG about the lack of manual gearbox.

I see the gearbox choice as a necessary evil in order to meet the desired pricepoint. Especially since the Z4 is also an automatic only car, so developing a manual version would have added substantially to the cost.

Beyond that, I neither love it nor hate it. It's a nice looking car and I'll like seeing them on the road, but I don't really have a desire for one. I'm not sure a manual transmission version would change that.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/13/19 7:07 p.m.
pinchvalve said:

Great coverage. I can't help wonder how Toyota (and other press departments) view GRM. Years ago, GRM probably didn't even get an invite; too little, too specialized, not part of some giant conglomerate. Now, they have the highest page count, the most loyal readers, a large circulation, and a massive web presence, so they definitely get an invite.  But while they must worry about other hack journalists stuffing their press fleet into the tire wall, they probably wait for GRM to see what their cars can really do on track. Regardless of my feelings about the car being covered, the coverage was top-notch. 

Thanks for this, by the way.

While we stil get overlooked by some of the larger companies, simply because our reach is less than some other outlets, there are more than a few companies that have recognized the value of such an engaged fan base as this. They know that one of our people is worth 3-4 of what a reader of some of the "big" magazines are worth, because our people are super engaged, super knowledgeable and tend to be influence leaders in their peer groups. 

So if you enjoy what we're doing it's merely because we're doing it as a reflection of our fanbase, and trying to use our resources to help you make the decisions you want to make.

PS: Toyota has always been fairly savvy, if not always on a corporate level, then at least at other levels where we had "fans" on the inside that recognized our value to the market and advocated for us to be included in their functions. I remember going to the press drive of the Mk4 Supra in 1991. Pretty amazing to think we were driving around South Florida in a bunch of future $150,000 sports coupes.

maj75
maj75 HalfDork
5/13/19 7:11 p.m.

I’m not the only person that has passed on the Supra after a long wait.  Friend just bought the LC500 because he would rather drive and mod that than the Supra.  And he has an E30 M3 with an S54 as his track car.

The group of guys I know who are all into performance and have the connections to get the first ones at dealer cost have passed.  None on them are putting their money down.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/13/19 7:14 p.m.
Brett_Murphy said:
JG Pasterjak said:
On the alternate timeline where Toyota used a turbo 4 in the Supra, this thread is equally as bitchy if not moreso than it currently is.

I was thinking of one of their V8s, actually.  That would make the Supra pretty super!

But Lexus already has the RC F. Do you just slap some Toyota badges on that and call it a Supra? Do you try and come up with something between the $70,000 base RC F and the $100,000 Track Edition? Even if you decontent it a bit, you still have a $70,000+ car that directly competes with something you already build. 

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
5/13/19 7:17 p.m.

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

The original Supra started out as a hopped up Celica.

Another path Toyota could have taken would have been to build a new car based on the GT86. Maybe with their own engine. Honestly, I think that's what most of us were expecting. At least I was...

crankwalk
crankwalk SuperDork
5/13/19 7:38 p.m.
z31maniac said:

I'M MAD ABOUT A CAR I WAS NEVER GOING TO BUY!!!!!!

 

So much hate, it's hysterical. From watching the videos, that 8spd seems to shift even faster than the DCT in my 135. Who cares what the actual tech is as long as it performs well?

I'm trying to understand the hate about "derp it's a BMW engine derp derp" it would take HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars for Toyota to design a brand new engine, for a sports car that is going not going to sell very much. Roll that engine development into the price of the car? It just went from $50k to $90k. 

But please, keep complaining about a car you never intended to buy regardless. 

 

I've seen you post this "But you were never going to buy it anyway" thing several times over the years and while I'd say most wouldn't have bought it, some of us were legitimately hoping this car would fill a void in the garage.

 

Here's the thing with that sentiment though. If even the people that love the nameplate but weren't going to buy it anyway are disappointed then it brings down the brand value for those who ARE going to buy.

A car keeps it's premium nameplate and value because of it's reputation. If it's a good car but the masses aren't lusting after it like a 22 year old MKIV then they shouldn't have brought it back until they could build something that would.

If 5 years ago, somebody from Toyota came to track events, car shows, whatever around the world and straight up asked "If we slightly changed up a BMW z4 and sold it as the new Supra would you be excited about it?" The majority of people would have said no. When, your potential customer and the rest of the public are all varying degrees of disappointed, that's a pretty lame exercise.

crankwalk
crankwalk SuperDork
5/13/19 7:43 p.m.
Rodan said:
 

The Twins, IMHO, are an apples/oranges comparison.  That was a brand new platform, intended from the start to be a collaboration.  No history to live up to there.  Now, if they had called it a "Supra", I'm guessing it would have generated the same kind of ire as the current car, but at least the Twins are good looking cars. wink

 

I'd disagree slightly. You don't see any nod to history to live up with? It's a direct homage to an AE86 trying to play off of it's legacy for balance, low priced RWD fun. People just complained it doesn't have a amazing Toyota inline for or a turbocharged Subaru boxer. A let down in both regards. Not the best points of either Toyota or Subaru.

Compromise is a 4 letter word and that's what most Japanese sports cars have been for 20 + years.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
5/13/19 7:44 p.m.

In reply to crankwalk :

The MKIV was a tough sell during its run too.  I had a NA MKIV and it was a good car,  but I always wished it was the TT.  Unfortunately, I was pretty young at the time and the insurance on the TT was a killer.

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
5/13/19 8:02 p.m.

In reply to crankwalk :

OK, I'll concede on the tie in to the AE86, it was never that for me, but I'll aknowledge it was for many.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/13/19 8:03 p.m.

In reply to BigD :

The next Corvette being mid engine makes it not fit the Corvette name? Whaaaaaa

When they start making electric hybrid f150's will they no longer fit the f series name?  

deaconblue
deaconblue New Reader
5/13/19 8:04 p.m.

I wonder if an LS engine & T56 combo will fit in there?

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/13/19 8:31 p.m.
Cotton said:

In reply to crankwalk :

The MKIV was a tough sell during its run too.  I had a NA MKIV and it was a good car,  but I always wished it was the TT.  Unfortunately, I was pretty young at the time and the insurance on the TT was a killer.

HOT TAKE ALERT: The non-turbo Supra S was the best Mk4 Supra.

lnlogauge
lnlogauge Reader
5/13/19 8:36 p.m.

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

Why?

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/13/19 8:48 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:

But Lexus already has the RC F. Do you just slap some Toyota badges on that and call it a Supra? Do you try and come up with something between the $70,000 base RC F and the $100,000 Track Edition? Even if you decontent it a bit, you still have a $70,000+ car that directly competes with something you already build.  

Thats fair. But can’t they take out a decent portion of the expensive interior, etc and make it 55k?  I mean it’s an internal project with most of the development costs amortized so instead of sharing costs and profits with bmw they’d keep all of it. And if engine is a major cost they can do a v6 and v8 version like the NA and TT versions previously. I’m sure I’m simplifying but it’s not a crazy idea. 

Hopsonn
Hopsonn New Reader
5/13/19 8:50 p.m.

This car looks like Chris Bangle and Fuore Design got together to design a sports car. It is not good.

j_tso
j_tso New Reader
5/13/19 9:06 p.m.
Ian F said:

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

The original Supra started out as a hopped up Celica.

When I talk to people about the new Supra I have to mention the only legendary one was the 4th gen.  The 3rd was a bit of a pig and the first 2 were upgraded Celicas.  This new Supra is not a halo car, but Toyota's performance GT car like the first 2 gens.  I'd say the LC500 is the halo car.

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
5/13/19 9:12 p.m.
j_tso said:

When I talk to people about the new Supra I have to mention the only legendary one was the 4th gen.  The 3rd was a bit of a pig and the first 2 were upgraded Celicas.  This new Supra is not a halo car, but Toyota's performance GT car like the first 2 gens. 

Maybe not legendary, but ugraded Celica or not, I liked the 2nd Gen a lot...

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/13/19 9:17 p.m.
lnlogauge said:

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

Why?

Hardtop, cloth seats, and just enough options to make it not seem like a stripper, but also not bloated. It had stuff like cruise and a slightly better than base stereo, but didn't have all the fancy climate control and mega-power Bose stuff that the high-end cars did.

The turbo motor was stout, but it was still an early-90s turbo motor, which meant lag and an imprecise throttle once the boost came up. The S was enormously satisfying to drive. It felt like a 944 with more power, perfect ergonomics and somehow even more direct handling without being harsh.

We had one as a press car back in the day and I honestly don't know if I've ever seen another one since then. I can't really find any info on them online, either. I'll have to check some of our old Toyota press materials at the office. I *think* it was introduced as a "turbo-lite" option on that year that the Turbo wasn't available with a manual. 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/13/19 9:18 p.m.
Rodan said:
j_tso said:

When I talk to people about the new Supra I have to mention the only legendary one was the 4th gen.  The 3rd was a bit of a pig and the first 2 were upgraded Celicas.  This new Supra is not a halo car, but Toyota's performance GT car like the first 2 gens. 

Maybe not legendary, but ugraded Celica or not, I liked the 2nd Gen a lot...

That is extremely '80s in all the best possible ways.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
5/13/19 9:41 p.m.

The 2nd gen Supra is one of my favorite Japanese cars and a nice one would definitely have a spot in my lottery garage. 

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
5/13/19 9:55 p.m.

The 2nd gen Supra is my favorite, and I still prefer the looks of the Celica.

I'll mostly plead "I'm clearly not the target audience" on the new one, but I can't resist a dig at any full-bodied car whose nose pretends to reference an F1 car, with the high "nose" and vertical bits that look like they're supposed to be supporting the front wing below...

Don't worry, Toyota, Mercedes couldn't pull it off, either.

Reminds me of Humpty Hump, somehow...

j_tso
j_tso New Reader
5/13/19 10:40 p.m.

In reply to Ransom :

Nitpicking here, but Toyota was going for the LMP1 look which is just as awkward aesthetically.

I'm quite partial to the 3rd gen notchback Celica, definitely peak 80s:

crankwalk
crankwalk SuperDork
5/14/19 12:55 a.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
On the alternate timeline where Toyota used a turbo 4 in the Supra, this thread is equally as bitchy if not moreso than it currently is.

I mean probably the most famous Supra in the world had a turbo 4 cylinder. 

 

 

And really, can you say a NA MKIV is better than a factory TT with a straight face? The factory sequentials have almost no lag even by today’s standards, the 6 speed getrag was way better than the 5 speed. No point listing all the high points really since I don’t think there is anybody that would call an NA mkiv the better drivers car. Everybody was just dying to give those more power by going NA-T or swapping them, myself included.

Dootz
Dootz New Reader
5/14/19 2:47 a.m.
dculberson said:
JG Pasterjak said:
MichaelYount said:

Sorry - can't get past the fact that it's just a (barely) re-bodied BMW.  

82 242-6.2L Volvo; '17 Mazda3; '16 X-Trek

Serious question: Why is this a bad thing?

There are differences between a Toyota and a BMW beyond just the badge. How it’s built and serviced, how reliable it is, and how it “feels.” Does this feel like a bmw or a Toyota? Why buy this over the z4? 

I don't know, maybe because it costs over $10k less to buy and has a fixed roof instead of being a convertible?

 

 

 

Dootz
Dootz New Reader
5/14/19 2:53 a.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

But the existing product isn't amazing?  Don't get me wrong, I have a twin, so I appreciate the car for what it is, but that's more in regard to the weight, rather than the wheelbase.  Is the Camaro's wheelbase that big of a hinderance performance wise (I would think maybe it's not great for autox but better for tracks?)?

It's more that the backseat is absolutely useless, and that the space could be better utilized for either a bigger trunk or just gutted for a shorter wheelbase

 

 

 

Dootz
Dootz New Reader
5/14/19 2:57 a.m.
Ransom said:

The 2nd gen Supra is my favorite, and I still prefer the looks of the Celica.

I'll mostly plead "I'm clearly not the target audience" on the new one, but I can't resist a dig at any full-bodied car whose nose pretends to reference an F1 car, with the high "nose" and vertical bits that look like they're supposed to be supporting the front wing below...

Don't worry, Toyota, Mercedes couldn't pull it off, either.

Reminds me of Humpty Hump, somehow...

Questionable, but I'd say it'd look 1000x better if it had the normal MB hood ornament instead of that stupid oversized badging that they do on everything nowadays

 

 

 

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS HalfDork
5/14/19 5:51 a.m.
nderwater said:
dculberson said:

Why buy this over the z4? 

I'm trying to find specific numbers, but I believe that the Supra is a couple hundred lbs lighter than the Z4.

For those of you up in arms about Torque Converter! I ask whether you've ever driven a car with one of these modern ZF paddle shift automatics. They've set the standard for sports cars and sports sedans for more than a decade and are really, really good.

ZF builds the autos in Dodge RAM trucks; owned one and wouldn’t want it in a sports car.  ZF built the automatics for Porsche before the PDK.  Driven then, don’t want to own one.  Sure they set the standard based on numbers produced, but a lot of enthusiasts still don’t WANT one for their sports car.  

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
5/14/19 7:45 a.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS :

Have you driven an 8spd ZF?  The ones I've driven are very, very good.  With good programming, in a lot of driving it becomes easy to forget the trans exists.  And that's a pretty high compliment.  Plus, turbos and torque converters are very good friends for a lot of types of driving.  

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
5/14/19 7:55 a.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to Snrub :

I think the context is important.  As a self proclaimed japanese car fan boy I've been incredibly impressed by what GM has done with Camaro over the past few years.  Track spec options + warranty on track?  For $30k new car and the same weight as the Supra?!  So while it's not a bad car on an absolute basis the competition has improved quite a bit (not suggesting Camaro is the direct competitor, just an example).  

I made similar arguments in the past. ...But I took my own advice and now I'm the wrong guy to make the Camaro argument to. :) No exaggeration, easily one of the worst decisions of my life to pick up a Camaro. I haven't updated my horror show thread recently, but the pain continues and it has literally months of accrued time in service. Warranty support?  Let's be serious. :)

I utterly loath my Camaro, but trying to be objective - the more time I spend with it, the more I dislike the size. I'm impressed with the size of the Supra. A short wheelbase may not make a difference in lap times, but it does increase the fun.

chandler
chandler PowerDork
5/14/19 8:17 a.m.
yupididit said:

In reply to BigD :

The next Corvette being mid engine makes it not fit the Corvette name? Whaaaaaa

When they start making electric hybrid f150's will they no longer fit the f series name?  

Yeah, I agree with this. Throw “heritage” out the window; is the car good? It isn’t competing against someone’s memories of a 25 year old car. It’s competing against other cars in the showroom now.

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
5/14/19 8:29 a.m.
Dootz said:

I don't know, maybe because it costs over $10k less to buy and has a fixed roof instead of being a convertible?

See, that's good info that I didn't know. They sold a Z4 coupe previously, I didn't know the current generation will not have it. I also didn't know it was that much cheaper.

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
5/14/19 8:30 a.m.

In reply to Ransom :

That is a seriously hideous front end. I saw an SLK for a really good price recently and was tempted but just couldn't get over the front end.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/14/19 8:31 a.m.
Snrub said:

I made similar arguments in the past. ...But I took my own advice and now I'm the wrong guy to make the Camaro argument to. :) No exaggeration, easily one of the worst decisions of my life to pick up a Camaro. I haven't updated my horror show thread recently, but the pain continues and it has literally months of accrued time in service. Warranty support?  Let's be serious. :)

I utterly loath my Camaro, but trying to be objective - the more time I spend with it, the more I dislike the size. I'm impressed with the size of the Supra. A short wheelbase may not make a difference in lap times, but it does increase the fun.

Oh no!!  That's so disappointing to hear.  Link to your thread?  And an update to it?  Would love to hear what's been the issues... 

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
5/14/19 8:33 a.m.

In 1993 the base Supra had 35 more hp than a v6 Camry.  In 2020 the base Supra has... 34 more hp than a v6 Camry.  In 1993 the turbo supra had 135 more hp  than the v6 camry. Now the turbo supra has... 34 more hp than a v6 Camry.   It seems like even though we're getting a strong turbo engine, we're getting the base model. Maybe this is the one that in 20 years everyone will look back and throw the one guy that liked the base model better under the bus. Depends what the next level up looks like, i guess.

On the flip side, in 1993 a base supra was only a few tenths faster in the 1/4 mile than a v6 camry (both with a 5spd manual). Now it's a full second and 10mph faster (both with 8spd auto). So.. that's something. 

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
5/14/19 9:03 a.m.
Vigo said:

In 1993 the base Supra had 35 more hp than a v6 Camry.  In 2020 the base Supra has... 34 more hp than a v6 Camry.  In 1993 the turbo supra had 135 more hp  than the v6 camry. Now the turbo supra has... 34 more hp than a v6 Camry.   It seems like even though we're getting a strong turbo engine, we're getting the base model. Maybe this is the one that in 20 years everyone will look back and throw the one guy that liked the base model better under the bus. Depends what the next level up looks like, i guess.

On the flip side, in 1993 a base supra was only a few tenths faster in the 1/4 mile than a v6 camry (both with a 5spd manual). Now it's a full second and 10mph faster (both with 8spd auto). So.. that's something. 

I think the "next level", or direct comparison to the old Turbo Supra would be the BMW Z4M40i. This Supra is basically a decontented and detuned version of that car. The Z4 M40i comes with nearly 50 more hp, better interior materials/tech, a mechanical differential, and more drive modes in the software. It'll also probably be around $75-80k which matches the price of a Mk4 Supra Turbo after inflation is accounted for.

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UltimaDork
5/14/19 9:35 a.m.
JG Pasterjak said:

But Lexus already has the RC F. Do you just slap some Toyota badges on that and call it a Supra? Do you try and come up with something between the $70,000 base RC F and the $100,000 Track Edition? Even if you decontent it a bit, you still have a $70,000+ car that directly competes with something you already build. 

I know they have to sell cars and they want to make money, so I understand why they did things the way they did. I've really got no horse in the race- I'm not a Supra fanboy, and I've got no intention to buy a $55k two seat car. I also hope they sell a bunch of them. 

If they just delivered the RC-F as a Supra in the first place, I'm sure there would have been another discussion and another flavor of complaints- but nobody would've been able to complain that it wasn't a Toyota product. Lexus has become both a big revenue generator for Toyota and a strong brand marquee in its own right, and it seems like this is where their real Halo cars exist now. Times change. I think a lot of people forget that, for the JDM market, the 90s were a bit of the golden age- the manufacturers were flush with cash and the future appeared to have no bounds, so they were doing things for the sake of bragging rights. When the last Supra was in development,  the Toyota brand was well known and Lexus was just a fledgling brand. The move upmarket by Toyota wasn't just the lay of the land, like it is today, and the US market was still the largest auto buying segment in the world, back then.

If they somehow managed to use the economies of scale and deliver the RC-F as a Supra at a lower price, we'd also be hearing complaints that it isn't a special and unique product.

We're all just armchair quarterbacking and enjoying the debate- people will vote with their money.  If the Supra suddenly becomes the hot new car in China, our opinions won't matter for a hill of beans.


 

BigD
BigD Reader
5/14/19 11:12 a.m.

There will for sure be bitching no matter what, and most of the time its just people's personal preferences being reflected but in this case I think the sourness is due to the letdown. Being teased with a Supra coming back set certain expectations, with people interpolating what the car was then to what it should be now, and I don't think you can make a reasonable argument that they were met (not within some specific framework of parameters but the level of car most people expected vs got).

But yesterday in a dive down the youtube related video rabbit hole, I watched the Demuro review of the new NSX and he pointed out how it's an amazing car, precisely what I'm talking about above, an interpolated equivalent of the original (mid engined V6, almost as fast as all of the exotics of the day but not quite, while being extremely practical in terms of comfort and usability etc). And no one's buying them. I'm not sure how Nissan made it work, maybe because it was the original resurrection car, there weren't a ton of alternatives at the time, onto whose nuts for people to latch. Audi released a bunch of S cars at the same time as the R8 so they refreshed themselves as a cool car brand to go with the halo sports car. But Acura just has some meh SUVs and sedans, there isn't even an Acura TypeR anymore. So no one wants a $150k Acura, even though it seems to be REALLY freaking good.

So maybe Toyota beancounters just faced reality that they could build a really cool car that forums and youtubers would rave about and not sell any of them. Or build a really good affordable car based on a known quantity with some of their own input, eat some E36 M3 from the fans and sell a pile of them...

racerdave600
racerdave600 UltraDork
5/14/19 12:01 p.m.

I have a quite a bit of experience with the 4th gen cars, NA and Turbo, and it wasn't until the F&F movie that all the fan boi craze started.  Early on there was the usual bitching that it wasn't a RX7TT, it was too expensive, the interior sucked, I don't like the wing, etc., etc., etc..  The gen 4 cars were excellent cars however, built like a tank, fast, easy to drive and more affordable as time went on.  The SE car JG was referring to do exist, we had one, and I've seen others, but the loaded ones are far more common.

I personally like the new car.  Sure its not as fast as a supercar, nor look like a Ferrari, but I think it looks decent, is a nice size, and it exists.  It's a car I could actually buy, unlike the NSX, if I wanted one.  In terms of inflation dollars, its cheaper than the 370Z I bought several years back, at least for the base model.  As for not offering a manual, I'm getting over that pretty quickly.  Lately I've driven a few nice autos that are so much better than in years past, not having a manual seems like a no brainer.  

red_stapler
red_stapler SuperDork
5/14/19 1:00 p.m.

TULSA, Oklahoma – Local car enthusiast John Thompson took to Twitter like a fly to poop when it was revealed that the revived Toyota Supra may not include a manual transmission and boy is he hot about it.  “How can you not give it a manual? There’s nothing better than slamming through the gears on a curvy, country road!” said Thompson, “Man and machine.  Not like these sissy flappy paddles everyone wants today.  Not me though, give me that six speed H pattern and I’ll show you how a car should be driven.”

It was later pointed out to Mr. Thompson by “@jk479hotboi” that he currently owns and drives a 2012 Honda Civic LX with an automatic transmission while his wife daily drives a 2016 Chrysler Town and Country.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
5/14/19 2:06 p.m.
dculberson said:
Dootz said:

I don't know, maybe because it costs over $10k less to buy and has a fixed roof instead of being a convertible?

See, that's good info that I didn't know. They sold a Z4 coupe previously, I didn't know the current generation will not have it. I also didn't know it was that much cheaper.

The Z4 hasn't been available as a fixed roof coupe since the E85/E86 ended back in 2008. The current (G29) and previous (E89) versions have only been convertibles although the E89 had a retractable hardtop.

Petrolburner
Petrolburner Dork
5/14/19 3:37 p.m.

I'm going to go against the majority here and say that I really like it.  I think it looks great and the interior looks like a great place to be.  The pricing seems good and if future models bring a manual transmission so much the better.  However, watching the Smoking Tire's review, transmission sounds like it works really well.  Thank you Toyota for making a car for the enthusiast.  

MichaelYount
MichaelYount HalfDork
5/14/19 4:37 p.m.
Hopsonn said:

This car looks like Chris Bangle and Fuore Design got together to design a sports car. It is not good.

Pretty sure that both Honda and Toyota have 'designers', and I use the term loosely, that are aiming anything with remotely sporting aspirations squarely at a millennial market that seems to have the attention span of an un-attached electron.  A non-stop hodge-podge of scoops, scallops, slots and intersecting humps filled with black plastic bits that, taken as a whole, scream "Hey!  Look at me, look at me!"  I keep waiting for one of them (e.g. Honda Civic S-type, this new so-called Supra) to rear up at a stop light and turn into Mr. Roboto.

Yes, I'm old and not the target demographic.  They're still too busy to be anywhere close to attractive.

Nick Comstock
Nick Comstock MegaDork
5/14/19 7:31 p.m.

Instead of going through the myriad of things I don't particularly like I would like to call out the one thing that I really love about the styling. 

That little duck tail rear spoiler is outstanding. 

Grizz
Grizz UberDork
5/14/19 8:32 p.m.

I'll say it.

It's the perfect successor to the mk4. Blobby and ugly and most of them will sit around not getting driven for various reasons.

Mk2/3 is way better looking, fight me.

First and biggest mistake Toyota made was using the supra name for them sweet nostalgia bux. Nobody would have given two E36 M3s about its BMWness if they tossed some random name on it and sold it as a upmarket alternative to the twins. In fact, you likely would have had some of the same people complaining about it asking why they didn't call it the supra.

Basically what I'm saying is full red interiors of crushed velour needs to come back.

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
5/14/19 8:59 p.m.

In reply to Grizz :

I love that entire post. 

te72
te72 Reader
5/15/19 12:31 a.m.
Nick Comstock said:

Instead of going through the myriad of things I don't particularly like I would like to call out the one thing that I really love about the styling. 

That little duck tail rear spoiler is outstanding. 

If you follow the outside of the tail light curve, over the top of the duck tail, to the other tail light curve... it does a reasonable job simulating the wing of the Mk4... I just noticed that yesterday, and I like it. Some angles, yes. Others, quite... odd. That said, it's a modern car and it isn't completely a head scratcher in the looks department, so... progress?

te72
te72 Reader
5/15/19 12:37 a.m.
Grizz said:

I'll say it.

It's the perfect successor to the mk4. Blobby and ugly and most of them will sit around not getting driven for various reasons.

Mk2/3 is way better looking, fight me.

Basically what I'm saying is full red interiors of crushed velour needs to come back.

You know, I like your style Grizz. We have two Supras in our garage, my wife's Mk4 and my Mk3. I catch myself looking at both of them in rather inappropriate ways frequently. I've had them all over the years, and like them all for a variety of reasons.

 

However, you're absolutely wrong about the burgundy interiors. Look pretty good when new, but unless garaged or kept covered and out of sunlight, they age horribly. Blue was a much better choice. *ties on the gloves*  =P

te72
te72 Reader
5/15/19 12:50 a.m.

Ok, I've read through this whole thread now, and I can see a lot of your points. Mine is a simple one:

 

I'd love to drive a Mk5 Supra, but I wouldn't want to own one.

 

...brand new. Yeah, I'm one of "those guys" who only buys used cars. Not that I can't afford new, but a used R8 (or Viper, or Ferrari 360, or GT350, or... you get the point) makes a hell of an argument compared to a Mk5 Supra, and I'm more than likely the biggest Supra guy on this forum, if I had to take a stab at it, much as I dislike pissing contests. The chassis sounds (and appears to handle) brilliantly, so I'm all sorts of excited to see what these things are like, and if I can keep up in my car. They will likely make some fantastic cars to tinker with, assuming that it isn't a total and complete PITA to modify.

 

Oh yeah, modifying... that brings me to my main point. Modern BMW's... best left stock, or mildly modified. Supras, on the other hand... we tend to go a bit off the rails when it comes to "let's see how far we can push this thing." and surprisingly, those old Supras are SOLID. I really hope I'm wrong, but I sincerely doubt you are going to see many 500-600whp Mk5 Supras survive for terribly long, and it all comes down to the bottom line here, which is...

 

...the bottom end. BMW is notoriously good at engineering bearings to withstand incredible loads, far beyond what any sane person would ever throw at an engine. Oh wait... no, I've got that backwards. They have a rather amusing history of terrible bearing design. Let me know how that's gonna hold up once Supra guys and gals start their tinkering madness. These B58's are gonna have more rod knock issues than all the post-bhg fix 7m threads I've seen over the years. =(

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/15/19 2:10 a.m.

I'm just happy to see Toyota attempting to make sporty cars again.  I will say I lament the lack of having a manual as an option, I've tried the ZF 8-speed and ridden in one plenty of times and no matter how good it may or may not be it's still very much an automatic and I'd never own one or hardly consider it a suitable manual replacement.  Of course I'm the type that doesn't care if the automatic/automated manual is faster, it's not the same as doing it yourself.  I'm a strong independent woman and I don't need any self shifting transmission. laugh  In all seriousness though I hope it does well, and in today's market it probably will as only oddballs like me insist on a manual.  Hey maybe they'll pair up with Lotus to import the Elise as the new MR2 after Toyota does what's needed to get it through U.S. crash safety, one can hope anyway right?

I think if you want a new(ish) Supra with a manual just do what my brother did, buy an E92 with the N54 and call it real. wink

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/15/19 8:00 a.m.
te72 said:

Ok, I've read through this whole thread now, and I can see a lot of your points. Mine is a simple one:

 

I'd love to drive a Mk5 Supra, but I wouldn't want to own one.

 

...brand new. Yeah, I'm one of "those guys" who only buys used cars. Not that I can't afford new, but a used R8 (or Viper, or Ferrari 360, or GT350, or... you get the point) makes a hell of an argument compared to a Mk5 Supra, and I'm more than likely the biggest Supra guy on this forum, if I had to take a stab at it, much as I dislike pissing contests. The chassis sounds (and appears to handle) brilliantly, so I'm all sorts of excited to see what these things are like, and if I can keep up in my car. They will likely make some fantastic cars to tinker with, assuming that it isn't a total and complete PITA to modify.

 

Oh yeah, modifying... that brings me to my main point. Modern BMW's... best left stock, or mildly modified. Supras, on the other hand... we tend to go a bit off the rails when it comes to "let's see how far we can push this thing." and surprisingly, those old Supras are SOLID. I really hope I'm wrong, but I sincerely doubt you are going to see many 500-600whp Mk5 Supras survive for terribly long, and it all comes down to the bottom line here, which is...

 

...the bottom end. BMW is notoriously good at engineering bearings to withstand incredible loads, far beyond what any sane person would ever throw at an engine. Oh wait... no, I've got that backwards. They have a rather amusing history of terrible bearing design. Let me know how that's gonna hold up once Supra guys and gals start their tinkering madness. These B58's are gonna have more rod knock issues than all the post-bhg fix 7m threads I've seen over the years. =(

That was really only the S54/S65/S85 cars that had bearing issues and many have shown it was mainly down to abusing the engine before it was up to temp. And remember the S54 still shared the bore spacing as the old M20 engine.........hence using an S54 crank allows you to build a 3.1L M20 stroker.

The N54/N55 cars aren't having rod bearing issues. Both engines are easily making well north of 450whp on the stock bottom end. And the B58 is an evolution of the N55. 

I suspect a tune is going to put the car into the 3 sec 0-60 range........so unless you're a drag racer or do "pulls on the highway bro" how much more do you really need?

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/15/19 8:36 a.m.

Car and Driver just put instrumented numbers down: 3.8 secs 0-60 and 12.3 secs in the 1/4.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/15/19 8:46 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

There's a can of worms... What we "need" and what we want are often times divergent.  There's a thread a few links down about a fast moving "shed" for north of $150k.

I get your point, which is why I drive a lowly 2L, but most of the new cars on the road today have more than what 99% of drivers "need" and indeed are probably hazardous to safety.  

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon SuperDork
5/15/19 9:33 a.m.

I think I like the styling. My wife says it’s cool so it can’t be too bad.

As nice as it would have been to see a new Supra designed from the ground up by Toyota I’m going to guess that using the BMW was the only way this car was ever going to exist. In my opinion, the Supra name fits and I think the car does fill a nice slot in the market.

BigD
BigD Reader
5/15/19 10:06 a.m.
te72 said:

Oh yeah, modifying... that brings me to my main point. Modern BMW's... best left stock, or mildly modified. Supras, on the other hand... we tend to go a bit off the rails when it comes to "let's see how far we can push this thing." and surprisingly, those old Supras are SOLID. I really hope I'm wrong, but I sincerely doubt you are going to see many 500-600whp Mk5 Supras survive for terribly long, and it all comes down to the bottom line here, which is...

 

...the bottom end. BMW is notoriously good at engineering bearings to withstand incredible loads, far beyond what any sane person would ever throw at an engine. Oh wait... no, I've got that backwards. They have a rather amusing history of terrible bearing design. Let me know how that's gonna hold up once Supra guys and gals start their tinkering madness. These B58's are gonna have more rod knock issues than all the post-bhg fix 7m threads I've seen over the years. =(

Someone I know who was at the launch said that Toyota apparently ran the B58 to Toyota durability standards to 700hp, so it seems no worries there. With regards to bearings, this is also a misleading statement. It's only true for their high-revving NA S motors because they are really racing engines, not meant for longevity. They have really short decks and small bearings, which is great if you need a light engine that lasts a few races or maybe a season but it's not for a street car. I haven't looked at the specs for the B58 but the S55 shows that they're learning, these new turbo 6es are for real, with deck heights, journal diameters and rod ratios much more favorable for longevity and big jam.

turtl631
turtl631 HalfDork
5/15/19 11:25 a.m.

Yea, b58 and s55 have some differences, but stock s55s (m3/4 engine) get to 500 wheel horsepower plus with just a tune and breathing mods. With bigger aftermarket turbos I think the stock blocks do up to around 650 or so.  Not many pushing it beyond that, remember these are 60 to $80,000 cars that have only been around since 2015 so the pool of people willing to build a block and do a big turbo setup is fairly small.  Especially when you can get around 500whp with just a flash tune and a few cheap breathing mods.  Diminishing returns and all that...

BigD
BigD Reader
5/15/19 11:35 a.m.
turtl631 said:

Yea, b58 and s55 have some differences, but stock s55s (m3/4 engine) get to 500 wheel horsepower plus with just a tune and breathing mods. With bigger aftermarket turbos I think the stock blocks do up to around 650 or so.  Not many pushing it beyond that, remember these are 60 to $80,000 cars that have only been around since 2015 so the pool of people willing to build a block and do a big turbo setup is fairly small.  Especially when you can get around 500whp with just a flash tune and a few cheap breathing mods.  Diminishing returns and all that...

There are plenty of N54/N55s over 750whp, I think the highest I've seen recorded on E85 on an unopened longblock is about 840 wheel. I'm not sure if the S55 has been around long enough to be pushed that far yet but no reason why it can't. From what I hear about the differences of the B58 to the S55, it should handle even more. Again, when Toyota [allegedly] says that they had the motor tested to 700 flywheel reliably, that's pretty cool!

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
5/15/19 11:41 a.m.

^ Sounds terrible, why would anyone want to buy this car? ;)

tjbell
tjbell HalfDork
5/15/19 12:00 p.m.

I mean its cool they returned the Supra, but this does it no justice.  I'd take one, if it was free, and had a warranty.

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
5/15/19 12:39 p.m.

0-60 in 3.8 seconds is insane. I also don't understand how they get that performance out of 335hp, that's crazy good.

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/15/19 1:27 p.m.

The N54 is the German 2JZ for a reason, my brother's 335i is already at 500 hp just with bolt-ons and a tune.  Just some turbos away from 700-800 hp.  Apparently the N54 anyway is good for it on stock internals, so hardly anything to sneeze at.  So if the latest iterations of the BMW I6 aren't too watered down in strength(I know the N55 is supposed to be a bit weaker than the N54) then I can't think of a better engine out there currently for something that's to be a Supra. 

Also I can't fathom it being too difficult to do a manual conversion on the Supra, since all of the hard stuff with manual conversions is already there in factory parts off current or relatively current BMW models.  Maybe some of the first buyers will do just that.  Also in terms of styling I kind of like it.  I think it'll be like the ND Miata, people will warm up to it over time.

CyberEric
CyberEric HalfDork
5/15/19 6:31 p.m.

I was very ready to hate on this car for obvious reasons, but the reviews so far have been changing my tune.

The numbers are staggering. 1.09 g on Michelin super sports? That’s insane.

Acceleration? 3.8 to 60 in a 3300lb car. There’s NO way that engine is putting out 335 hp.

And the subjective measures have been good too. It’s ugly, but it sounds legit.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/15/19 7:56 p.m.
z31maniac said:

Car and Driver just put instrumented numbers down: 3.8 secs 0-60 and 12.3 secs in the 1/4.

 

Damn......hmmm that's pretty insane given the numbers. Performance without excess. 

CyberEric
CyberEric HalfDork
5/15/19 7:58 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

The numbers are similar to a GT350, both in acceleration and in corner grip. I know this is magazine racing, but that's really, really impressive.

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
5/15/19 8:37 p.m.

Is it possible the Supra and the Z4 have the same underrated power, but BMW asked Toyota to list a lower number to justify a the price difference?

The grip numbers are particularly impressive given the description of the ride quality.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
5/15/19 8:43 p.m.

Just checked out the colors on the website.  I really like the blue!

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
5/15/19 9:15 p.m.

That blue looks awesome!  If you run the 113mph trap speed and a 3550lb race weight through a horsepower calculator it comes up closer to 400 than 335. But, I would like to see it replicated a few times before putting much weight in it. I was recently looking up specs of 3.6L Panameras and one magazine claimed they did a 5.0 0-60 in it. Everyone else was 6ish. Things that make you go hmmmm.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/15/19 9:16 p.m.

In reply to Cotton :

Phantom Matte Gray looks great too. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/15/19 9:17 p.m.
Snrub said:

Is it possible the Supra and the Z4 have the same underrated power, but BMW asked Toyota to list a lower number to justify a the price difference?

The grip numbers are particularly impressive given the description of the ride quality.

There has been lots of speculation all the modern BMW turbo I6s are at least a little underrated.

Don't discount this car has 365lb-ft at 1600 RPM up through 5k (at least), it has a transmission that shift super quick, and most definitely have launch control starts. And they obviously know how to get the power down.

And those wheel wells look like they will easily handle another 20-30mm front and rear in section width 

 

I think my 135, 300/300 (again makes that torque from 1400-5200 rpms), using launch control is rated at 4.5 0-60 using launch with 245 rear tires and more weight.

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/15/19 11:15 p.m.
Cotton said:

Just checked out the colors on the website.  I really like the blue!

OOOOH, that is nice!  Not enough nice colours out there these days, so I approve.  That and I'm biased towards the blue, indigo, violet spectrum.

te72
te72 Reader
5/15/19 11:54 p.m.

Since we can't multi-reply on here, I'll just throw my replies out there. =)

-"Need" is a very subjective idea. Truthfully, 500whp is about perfect in my Supra, but it's 30 years old and built to suit that level. The Mk4 I suspect is downright tame at 500whp, so I can see why a lot of them seem to be at the 600-800whp level and still street driven. As for the drag racing and highway pulls, hang around the Supra crowd enough, that's a surprisingly important metric to them, those cars were always pretty great for that, if you could drive. Straight line has never really been my game, but it's still fun, and a major reason the Supra is still so iconic.

 

-I get that some folks are upset about it being called a Supra, but marinate on this a moment: What else has Toyota made in the last 50 years that has two doors, rwd, inline 6, and sporting intentions? From my rather extensive history and oddball knowledge of their lineup, I can confidently say that only the Crown Coupes, the Soarer, and the Supra fit the mold. Crown, most people have forgotten, Soarer, we didn't receive in the US under that name, so it's useless for the marketing department, which leaves us with Supra. Much as I understand the sour grapes, I could care less. Let the car prove itself and earn the name. Part of me wants this new car to spank some OG Supra ass just to show people how far technology has come. So, what ELSE would you call it?

 

-For the people baffled by the acceleration, ignore the horsepower, and instead focus on the torque. 365 ft-lbs at only 1600 rpm, plus an automatic that probably has well thought out gearing. Really isn't all that surprising. What would be surprising is if it carries that speed on the top end. I'm not as familiar, time wise, with what constitutes a good performance up top. My car pulls harder from 60-150 than it does from 0-60, and I've never bothered to actually instrument my car's performance other than against myself and friend at autocross tracks. Still... look at that TOP gear acceleration, THAT is what is most impressive to me. My car won't even spool at those speeds in top gear!

 

-I'll admit, I'm cautiously optimistic about BMW learning how to build a proper turbo engine (after all, look what they did with, what was it, the M10, in 80's F1?) for the modern era, but... I'm not going to bet $50k on it. Like I said before, these will make fantastic used cars, assuming they hold up. I'd love to revisit this in 5 years, see how many of these cars make it to 100k without any noteworthy issues. When I opened up my 1jz after putting five years of hard daily driving (between the racing, the clutches, and towing other cars home), we were all pretty amazed to find bearings that could have been put right back in, they looked new, no joke. In all that time, I only had to replace one rubber coolant line to the front turbo that I should have replaced when we put the engine in the car. That's what I call reliable. That's what I expect from a Toyota Supra.

 

-I'll also admit that I'm not as familiar with BMW's more modern turbo stuff. How durable are these 500+whp cars in the long run? I mean, you can make the power with anything just about, for a while... What sort of maintenance is required? So far my fairly highly strung 87 Supra has required oil changes and a sway bar end link end joint replacing. Still sorting it out, but the only things that have caused headaches have been of the "built in a garage" variety and are expected of a car like this. That said, it's been reliable, and puts down the power without fail.

 

-Manual swaps will be a thing, I'd be surprised if Grannas Racing doesn't have a Tremec setup for the Mk5 within a year or so. I've even seen a couple examples of Supras with BMW's 7-speed DCT, so it might just be a case of the grass being greener elsewhere. I still think the auto-only approach has as much to do with regulation as anything else.

 

All in, I'm excited to see what the new car can do, but I've never been in the "new car" market so I'm just gonna be over here on the fence until this car establishes itself for the long term. =)

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/16/19 1:23 a.m.

Well there's the 2000GT that's right at 49 years at the youngest. wink  They could call it the 3000GT!  No wait... cheeky  I don't have an issue with the name plate being used, and I can see where they tried to pay homage to the MKIV at least in the design.  I see MKIV in the headlights and the rear of the car with how it's shaped, but maybe that's just me.  Honestly my only "gripe" is not having an option of the manual when the Z4 does, or at least in Europe the Z4 does anyway from what I last read.  Otherwise I like it, if I had the money that one thing would keep it off my relatively short shopping list but I'm a manual snob(and just a snob in general with cars). laugh  I'm just happy it and the 86 even exist, at least they somewhat care enough to venture outside of the appliance market lately.

NickD
NickD PowerDork
5/16/19 6:28 a.m.

The Chief Engineer for the new Toyota Supra, Tetsuya Tada, has told DriveTribe that he hasn't ruled out a manual gearbox for the new sports car – and that one has been tested.

Speaking at the European launch for the Supra, he laid out his thoughts on the automatic-versus-manual debate.

"I’ve been asked this 100 million times across the world," he admits. "There is a website that polls what you want in new Supra, and manual transmission is always high on the list. I get a notification when people vote for it!"

But it sounds like Toyota is listening. "We’ve considered it and things have been tested," he admits.

"People should give the automatic gearbox a try," he continues. "But come to it with an open mind. If having driven it people still want a manual, then of course as with normal sports cars there’ll be yearly updates – and we could introduce it."

So there you have it. Toyota's tested a manual gearbox in the new Supra and if people are vocal enough they might just give it to us"


https://drivetribe.com/p/toyota-has-tested-a-manual-gearbox-ZJaq6eWtS-iRqVT-4SP96Q?iid=PIXYrnpwTSSHZ0DV7xMIHw&utm_source=organic&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=main+


Here's how I see this playing out:

>Toyota announces possibility of manual transmission

>People hold out for the manual transmission option

>Sales are below expectations

>Toyota kills the Zupr4 due to low sales and barely any autos and no manuals are built.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/16/19 7:02 a.m.

In reply to NickD :

I haven’t been following the whole development story so taking what you posted as face value here. I can totally see the scenario you described playing out. And the easy way around that would be for them to ask for a 5% deposit for manual buyers and if there’s enough demand they’ll make it. If not they return the money, obviously. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable ask and the true buyers are likely willing to pony up the deposit (look at what people did with the Tesla 3). 

Trying to convince the buyers that the auto is good enough isn’t the answer.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 7:07 a.m.
te72 said:

Since we can't multi-reply on here, I'll just throw my replies out there. =)

-"Need" is a very subjective idea. Truthfully, 500whp is about perfect in my Supra, but it's 30 years old and built to suit that level. The Mk4 I suspect is downright tame at 500whp, so I can see why a lot of them seem to be at the 600-800whp level and still street driven. As for the drag racing and highway pulls, hang around the Supra crowd enough, that's a surprisingly important metric to them, those cars were always pretty great for that, if you could drive. Straight line has never really been my game, but it's still fun, and a major reason the Supra is still so iconic.

 

-I get that some folks are upset about it being called a Supra, but marinate on this a moment: What else has Toyota made in the last 50 years that has two doors, rwd, inline 6, and sporting intentions? From my rather extensive history and oddball knowledge of their lineup, I can confidently say that only the Crown Coupes, the Soarer, and the Supra fit the mold. Crown, most people have forgotten, Soarer, we didn't receive in the US under that name, so it's useless for the marketing department, which leaves us with Supra. Much as I understand the sour grapes, I could care less. Let the car prove itself and earn the name. Part of me wants this new car to spank some OG Supra ass just to show people how far technology has come. So, what ELSE would you call it?

 

-For the people baffled by the acceleration, ignore the horsepower, and instead focus on the torque. 365 ft-lbs at only 1600 rpm, plus an automatic that probably has well thought out gearing. Really isn't all that surprising. What would be surprising is if it carries that speed on the top end. I'm not as familiar, time wise, with what constitutes a good performance up top. My car pulls harder from 60-150 than it does from 0-60, and I've never bothered to actually instrument my car's performance other than against myself and friend at autocross tracks. Still... look at that TOP gear acceleration, THAT is what is most impressive to me. My car won't even spool at those speeds in top gear!

 

-I'll admit, I'm cautiously optimistic about BMW learning how to build a proper turbo engine (after all, look what they did with, what was it, the M10, in 80's F1?) for the modern era, but... I'm not going to bet $50k on it. Like I said before, these will make fantastic used cars, assuming they hold up. I'd love to revisit this in 5 years, see how many of these cars make it to 100k without any noteworthy issues. When I opened up my 1jz after putting five years of hard daily driving (between the racing, the clutches, and towing other cars home), we were all pretty amazed to find bearings that could have been put right back in, they looked new, no joke. In all that time, I only had to replace one rubber coolant line to the front turbo that I should have replaced when we put the engine in the car. That's what I call reliable. That's what I expect from a Toyota Supra.

 

-I'll also admit that I'm not as familiar with BMW's more modern turbo stuff. How durable are these 500+whp cars in the long run? I mean, you can make the power with anything just about, for a while... What sort of maintenance is required? So far my fairly highly strung 87 Supra has required oil changes and a sway bar end link end joint replacing. Still sorting it out, but the only things that have caused headaches have been of the "built in a garage" variety and are expected of a car like this. That said, it's been reliable, and puts down the power without fail.

 

-Manual swaps will be a thing, I'd be surprised if Grannas Racing doesn't have a Tremec setup for the Mk5 within a year or so. I've even seen a couple examples of Supras with BMW's 7-speed DCT, so it might just be a case of the grass being greener elsewhere. I still think the auto-only approach has as much to do with regulation as anything else.

 

All in, I'm excited to see what the new car can do, but I've never been in the "new car" market so I'm just gonna be over here on the fence until this car establishes itself for the long term. =)

Highway pulls are simply about building a dyno queen, then being stupid enough to drive nearly 3x the legal limit on public highways. I don't find that stuff impressive. 

 

Already mentioned gearing, torque, launch control, etc.

 

As for the N54/N55/B58.....................the only issues I have seen/read about are, dumbasses with a poor tune popping their engines.....but that can happen on any car, even naturally aspirated. I've heard of exactly ONE case of an N55 eating the #6 rod bearing because the oil pump sensor failed and wasn't pumping enough. The N55 cars went to an electric oil pump instead of chain driven.

 

Just like anything, if you build an engine to more than twice what it came with and beat on mercilessly, eventually you'll break it. But plenty of guys with tens of thousands of miles, hard miles like HPDE (not 10 second blasts on the highway or down the strip).

 

I guess since I drive a DCT car, I don't really care about all the "It doesn't have a manual" stuff. Being able to leave the car in auto when commuting on city streets is nice vs being constantly on and off the clutch. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 7:10 a.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to NickD :

I haven’t been following the whole development story so taking what you posted as face value here. I can totally see the scenario you described playing out. And the easy way around that would be for them to ask for a 5% deposit for manual buyers and if there’s enough demand they’ll make it. If not they return the money, obviously. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable ask and the true buyers are likely willing to pony up the deposit (look at what people did with the Tesla 3). 

Trying to convince the buyers that the auto is good enough isn’t the answer.

A $3k deposit on a car that I might receive in a year? That's going to be pretty a hard sell. Even when I spoke to the Miata dealers, and they are already offer the model I want, if I want to custom build it with certain options and color combo, they said it could take as many as 4-5 months to get here.............for a car that is already built. Because of getting into the build schedule, taking a boat across the Pacific, etc.

Not one that hasn't even been built and tested yet. 

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
5/16/19 7:49 a.m.

I used to worship a Caribbean Blue Mk4TT at the local dealership when I was in high school.  I always loved the combination of refinement and speed.  I think I like the new body style, particularly in that blue above. If I was in the market to replace my Mustang, this would be a major contender. I wonder if I could talk my wife in to DDing one.....

I also think that this may be one of those cars that looks much better in person than in photos. Some cars pull that off but I've never understood how. I think it has to do with the fact that the human eye/brain combo has some dimensional aspects that flat images just don't duplicate.

Dave M
Dave M Reader
5/16/19 8:05 a.m.

Who is going to buy these? Who is the conquest buyer? People who want an automatic Cayman but want to save some cash or hate 4-bangers? Vette buyers who want something different and slower?

I just don't get the lack of the manual. It's not so fast that you need an automatic, and for this kind of car, manuals rule.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 8:20 a.m.
Dave M said:

I just don't get the lack of the manual. It's not so fast that you need an automatic, and for this kind of car, manuals rule.

This has been discussed ad nauseum over the years, more and more people are buying the auto version of performance cars. I just read an article on carbuzz, that even with the BMW M cars, the take rate for manuals is below 20% for 2017. It was 23% for the 2016 Corvette. 40% for the Mustang GT in 2015. 

People don't buy them, so the manufacturers slowly quit making them. 

 

EDIT: These were the best numbers I could find for "manual take rate." But these cars are in very different price points and types of buyer as well.

"Over half of the Mazda MX-5 Miatas sold in the U.S. are manuals, and 80 percent of Subaru BRZWRXs and STIs are sticks."

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/16/19 8:57 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

You have a preference and I get that. But the Tesla example still stands and people waited much longer. I’m just saying that they should offer that option and if there’s not enough buyers then so be it.  Those who wants a manual will wait (like me, but N of 1 is rarely a good sample size). 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 9:13 a.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to z31maniac :

You have a preference and I get that. But the Tesla example still stands and people waited much longer. I’m just saying that they should offer that option and if there’s not enough buyers then so be it.  Those who wants a manual will wait (like me, but N of 1 is rarely a good sample size). 

Depends on the car. My 350Z was manual. The '13 Mustang GT I ordered new, and the '15 BRZ I bought new were manuals. The NC Miata I had as a DD was a manual.  The 135i is while small in size and "sporty" still leans toward GT with sound deadening and comfort, so I wanted the fancy gearbox for it.

And unless I pony up nearly $60k for a new Supra in a year or two, whatever car I buy next will likely be a manual. I really want to see what Subaru is going to do with the next-gen BRZ and STi. But there is also something about an SS 1LE or a new Mustang GT PP2 car that is very appealing because of the V8 madness! 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/16/19 9:37 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I wasn’t questioning your desire or history for manual cars. I was saying you as a buyer may not want to wait, but others might for the right options, and that Toyota should at least open that as an option with really no downside. 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/16/19 12:45 p.m.
rezisehtnys said:
Cotton said:

Just checked out the colors on the website.  I really like the blue!

OOOOH, that is nice!  Not enough nice colours out there these days, so I approve.  That and I'm biased towards the blue, indigo, violet spectrum.

I really like blue cars, too, but the Supra blue isn't this nice in person. It's dark. REALLY dark. So dark I kept mixing it up with the black car when they'd pull into line. That flat grey is amazing, though.

ShinnyGroove
ShinnyGroove New Reader
5/16/19 1:33 p.m.

My thinking on the transmission.  If I have a car that's 100% toy, I want a manual.  This is the philosophy with my turbo NA Miata, which also doesn't have AC, power steering, etc.

But if I spend $50k on a new car, it's going to get daily driven or at least get 80%+ of my driving miles, with a cheap pickup on standby for bigger jobs.  And if I'm putting substantial commuter miles on it, I'm not driving a manual.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

I have to think that a lot of potential buyers share my logic.  Cayman S PDK would be pretty ideal for me, except for the price.  If this Supra performs similarly (including the transmission), I would definitely be a potential buyer.

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/16/19 4:27 p.m.

Well everyone is different, my brother that commutes through traffic every day uses a manual 335i.  Before that it was a manual Genesis 2.0T, and before that a manual Maxima(unicorn edition), and there was even a manual Audi A4 2.0 Quattro thrown in the mix with the Genesis.  I can understand where one would prefer an automatic, even if they can drive and like manuals, for their daily driver but he and I are stubborn. laugh  Especially if you're putting all of your eggs into one basket like us, as it were.  I think it also depends on the clutch weight, something light isn't an issue really even in traffic and that's with my fibromyalgia.  Of course I also adjust accordingly, I don't bother moving forward until there's a gap big enough I deem it worth the energy of going in and out of first.  Not like we're going anywhere and I'm not going to kill myself just to appease someone that wants to creep up every inch possible the entire time.  Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

Also that's a shame on the blue, looks really nice from that rendered image.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/16/19 8:24 p.m.
rezisehtnys said:

Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

 

That's news to me. But, why is it bad for the transmission? 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
5/16/19 8:32 p.m.
ShinnyGroove said:

if I spend $50k on a new car, it's going to get daily driven or at least get 80%+ of my driving miles, with a cheap pickup on standby for bigger jobs.  And if I'm putting substantial commuter miles on it, I'm not driving a manual.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

It always amazes me that in America this paragraph doesn't read:

if I am taking a job/choosing a place to life, Im going to make sure I have a low traffic commute, a short commute, or one that does not require a car.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy."

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/16/19 8:43 p.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not to derail the discussion but I read in a book a little while back that the trade off between home space vs commute time is one where people usually make the wrong decision. Shorter commute is almost directly correlated with happiness and an extra room for the visitor is rarely valued (if ever). 

ShinnyGroove
ShinnyGroove New Reader
5/16/19 9:56 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
ShinnyGroove said:

if I spend $50k on a new car, it's going to get daily driven or at least get 80%+ of my driving miles, with a cheap pickup on standby for bigger jobs.  And if I'm putting substantial commuter miles on it, I'm not driving a manual.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

It always amazes me that in America this paragraph doesn't read:

if I am taking a job/choosing a place to life, Im going to make sure I have a low traffic commute, a short commute, or one that does not require a car.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy."

FWIW, my office is 10 minutes from my house.  I do have to drive to the airport or out to customers or offsite meetings somewhat regularly, or just to run errands.  Atlanta is a great place to live, but the traffic is pretty much ever-present.  And I don’t want a manual tranny as my daily driver.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 10:25 p.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not to derail the discussion but I read in a book a little while back that the trade off between home space vs commute time is one where people usually make the wrong decision. Shorter commute is almost directly correlated with happiness and an extra room for the visitor is rarely valued (if ever). 

This is specifically why I bought a house just  more from than 5 miles from my office. I'm also able to go in early and leave early. Throw in I only go in 3 days per week, and I spend about 50 minutes commuting (all surface streets) and 35 miles commuting every week.

 

If I happen to leave late, my 10 minute commute in the morning can easily turn into 30+ in bumper to bumper 20 mph traffic. That sucks in a manual.

 

More than about 20 minutes I'm not interested in, that's why I don't move to some cities where I could make more. I'd spend it all on housing and increased commuting time.

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/16/19 10:35 p.m.
yupididit said:
rezisehtnys said:

Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

 

That's news to me. But, why is it bad for the transmission? 

It keeps the friction packs engaged which wears them and increases heat in the transmission, for short stops like stop lights keep it in drive but for parking lot traffic it'd be better going into park.  Plus then you don't have to worry about your foot slipping off the brake pedal for any reason and then rolling into the car in front of you.  "Inching" is even worse for something like a DSG versus a torque converter automatic.  Though all these new cars with stop start it wouldn't matter and you'd just be better off letting it do its thing.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/17/19 7:10 a.m.
z31maniac said:
bcp2011 said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not to derail the discussion but I read in a book a little while back that the trade off between home space vs commute time is one where people usually make the wrong decision. Shorter commute is almost directly correlated with happiness and an extra room for the visitor is rarely valued (if ever). 

This is specifically why I bought a house just  more from than 5 miles from my office. I'm also able to go in early and leave early. Throw in I only go in 3 days per week, and I spend about 50 minutes commuting (all surface streets) and 35 miles commuting every week.

 

If I happen to leave late, my 10 minute commute in the morning can easily turn into 30+ in bumper to bumper 20 mph traffic. That sucks in a manual.

 

More than about 20 minutes I'm not interested in, that's why I don't move to some cities where I could make more. I'd spend it all on housing and increased commuting time.

 

I live 3.9 miles from work. It takes 15-20 min to get to work or to get home. There's people I work with who live 15 miles away and can arrive in the same commute time as me.  Crazy

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/17/19 7:14 a.m.
rezisehtnys said:
yupididit said:
rezisehtnys said:

Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

 

That's news to me. But, why is it bad for the transmission? 

It keeps the friction packs engaged which wears them and increases heat in the transmission, for short stops like stop lights keep it in drive but for parking lot traffic it'd be better going into park.  Plus then you don't have to worry about your foot slipping off the brake pedal for any reason and then rolling into the car in front of you.  "Inching" is even worse for something like a DSG versus a torque converter automatic.  Though all these new cars with stop start it wouldn't matter and you'd just be better off letting it do its thing.

 

I'm gonna have to monitor my trans temps again next time I'm in parking lot traffic. I was in that kind of traffic towing about 7k pounds and basically inching for an hour in drive with my feet riding the brake. Think my trans temps stayed in the same range. And I always watch those when towing with a 4R100 lol

Matt B
Matt B UltraDork
5/17/19 8:04 a.m.
ShinnyGroove said:
ProDarwin said:
ShinnyGroove said:

if I spend $50k on a new car, it's going to get daily driven or at least get 80%+ of my driving miles, with a cheap pickup on standby for bigger jobs.  And if I'm putting substantial commuter miles on it, I'm not driving a manual.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

It always amazes me that in America this paragraph doesn't read:

if I am taking a job/choosing a place to life, Im going to make sure I have a low traffic commute, a short commute, or one that does not require a car.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy."

FWIW, my office is 10 minutes from my house.  I do have to drive to the airport or out to customers or offsite meetings somewhat regularly, or just to run errands.  Atlanta is a great place to live, but the traffic is pretty much ever-present.  And I don’t want a manual tranny as my daily driver.

That's fair, and I can't really blame anyone for not want to deal with traffic and a clutch.  I'll only throw in my preference as another data point.  I commute in a manual daily, ATL stop-n-go traffic, 30-40 min each way and I have zero problems with it.  If they ever offer the Supra in a manual it will probably go on the list of potentials for me, BMW-ness be damned.  That said, I'm also irked I can't get a Giulia or Charger with a manual to haul my kids around.  I know I'm an outlier that's probably not worth considering on the scale of overall product strategy, but I'll vote with my dollars anyway.

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
5/17/19 8:18 a.m.
rezisehtnys said: 

It keeps the friction packs engaged which wears them and increases heat in the transmission, for short stops like stop lights keep it in drive but for parking lot traffic it'd be better going into park.  Plus then you don't have to worry about your foot slipping off the brake pedal for any reason and then rolling into the car in front of you.  "Inching" is even worse for something like a DSG versus a torque converter automatic.  Though all these new cars with stop start it wouldn't matter and you'd just be better off letting it do its thing.

I'll agree with inching being awful for a DSG.  It's easy to forget that a DSG isn't an automatic.  It's a manual but the guy in the passenger seat has the shifter and clutch.  

For an auto, yes, staying in gear while stopped does make some heat due to torque converter slip.  But it's peanuts compared to the heat produced when accelerating hard and should be easily dealt with by the cooling system.  And the clutch packs don't slip and wear while constantly engaged.  If anything, disengaging them and reengaging them by shifting out of gear and back in would cause more wear, although the difference is likely so small it's not worth worrying about.  

red_stapler
red_stapler SuperDork
5/17/19 9:47 a.m.
rslifkin said:

I'll agree with inching being awful for a DSG.  It's easy to forget that a DSG isn't an automatic.  It's a manual but the guy in the passenger seat has the shifter and clutch.  

Now that I've owned one, I'm always amused when people pick the DSG for crawling in stop & go traffic.  I found that you still have to mentally manage the drivetrain in traffic much the same way you do with a conventional manual.

The Prius on the other hand, now that's a car designed to go 2mph.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
5/17/19 11:10 a.m.
rezisehtnys said:
yupididit said:
rezisehtnys said:

Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

 

That's news to me. But, why is it bad for the transmission? 

It keeps the friction packs engaged which wears them and increases heat in the transmission, for short stops like stop lights keep it in drive but for parking lot traffic it'd be better going into park.  

This is a bit wrong.  Yes it keeps the frictions engaged... which is good because if they are engaged, they aren't wearing.  When you are stopped, engine RPM is accomodated by the torque converter, which will be adding minimal heat because how much power is the engine putting out?

 

Modern transmissions actually wear out a whole lot less because drive by wire allows the PCM to cut power during a shift, so a smooth shift can be achieved without having to slip the trans a bunch.  Remember the bad old days when you'd see loads of friction material sediment after 30,000 miles?  Those days are LONG gone.

 

Shifting to Neutral when stopped would actually increase wear because of the momentary slippage happening when re-engaging first gear.  Very minimal of an issue, but if you want to split hairs then I have a very fine blade smiley

chandler
chandler PowerDork
5/17/19 11:48 a.m.

On top of that, during ONE of my forays into drivers re-education due to excessive speeding tickets I was told that (this was Iowa, 1997) that it is actually illegal to not be in gear at a stop light. Don’t see that anywhere with a quick google but that’s what they said.

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
5/17/19 12:01 p.m.

The book is big enough to throw at anything. I doubt that specific thing is true, but it doesn't matter because some other minutiae of the law would still be available to the asshat who would try to charge you with something like that. 

NickD
NickD PowerDork
5/17/19 1:40 p.m.
chandler said:

On top of that, during ONE of my forays into drivers re-education due to excessive speeding tickets I was told that (this was Iowa, 1997) that it is actually illegal to not be in gear at a stop light. Don’t see that anywhere with a quick google but that’s what they said.

New York it is technically illegal to put a car (automatic or manual) in Neutral and coast down a hill because "the driver is not in control of the vehicle"

chandler
chandler PowerDork
5/17/19 3:05 p.m.
NickD said:
chandler said:

On top of that, during ONE of my forays into drivers re-education due to excessive speeding tickets I was told that (this was Iowa, 1997) that it is actually illegal to not be in gear at a stop light. Don’t see that anywhere with a quick google but that’s what they said.

New York it is technically illegal to put a car (automatic or manual) in Neutral and coast down a hill because "the driver is not in control of the vehicle"

That’s the wording they used also! Twenty years ago so I was digging to remember how it was worded. 

 

back to your regularly scheduled program 

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
5/17/19 5:13 p.m.
NickD said:

New York it is technically illegal to put a car (automatic or manual) in Neutral and coast down a hill because "the driver is not in control of the vehicle"

We have a similar statute in AZ... I think that one is actually pretty common.

te72
te72 Reader
5/17/19 8:46 p.m.

I cannot believe I forgot about the 2000GT... D'oh! To be fair, I think of it in the same light as the LFA. It's a work of art, Yamaha was mostly deserving of the credit, it's far, far, far out of my price range, and yet... somehow has a Toyota / Lexus badge on it. Love both of them for very different reasons.

 

z31maniac - Glad to hear something positive about modern BMW turbo engines. Really hoping, genuinely, that they hold up as good as the Toyotas of old do. For what it's worth, stuffing power through a JZ is rarely what kills them. Some newer small - medium frame turbos (Precision 6466 seems to be the common one brought up) hit so hard that they have a habit of bending stock rods a high (600+) torque levels, and of course bad tunes kill anything they're trying to control, but other than that... Toyota created some legendary engines back in the day. That is the legacy that is carried along with this name, mostly for the worse in the court of enthusiast opinion, it would seem.

 

My newest car was a 2001, and while I've driven newer cars, I can't say I've driven a newer automatic. Closest thing I suppose would be whatever that 7-speed dual clutch is in the 458, that thing is fantastic, but, uh, durr. It's a modern Ferrari... So, perhaps autos have finally come to a point where they're acceptible for sporting driving. I can't imagine you'd need to slip a clutch, or clutch kick, or any of those sorts of techniques that help you drive slow, underpowered cars quickly, when you have the sort of torque you have on modern cars.

 

 

Ultracide - I think you're probably onto something about some cars looking better in person than on paper, absolutely. I think it's a matter of proportion. I've shown my wife pictures of kei trucks and vans, and while she thinks they look cute on paper, you should see the excitement on her face when their cute-factor is witnessed in person... I just hope that the Mk5 has even a smidgen of the "wow" factor that the FT-1 had in person at Supras in Vegas! I rarely ogle cars, but I must have stared at that thing for a solid hour.

 

JG - Toyota has a history, starting in the late 80's, of having dark colors with a lot of metal flake  in the paint. The Mk3 Supra had at least three colors that appear black at night, but when you see them in direct sunlight, it's something special. Almost like you're getting two colors of paint in the same car! Imperial Jade Mica, a color found on the Mk4 and LS400 (perhaps others) is the same way, at night it looks black, but it GLOWS green in sunlight, I love it. Looking forward to seeing this blue you speak of...

StuntmanMike
StuntmanMike New Reader
5/20/19 9:28 a.m.

Here for the pictures? That was way too many pictures of an overrated car. The performance maybe significant, but I think Toyota drops the ball when it comes to its appearance.

What I'm more excited about is Mazda's new straight six gas and diesel engines and the rendition of a car that it might contain said engine which looks more like what the Supra should have looked like:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a27420384/mazda-developing-straight-six/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_rdt&utm_medium=email&date=051019&src=nl&utm_campaign=16849101

MichaelYount
MichaelYount HalfDork
5/20/19 5:00 p.m.

Most of the online trap speed/ET/HP calculators use algorithms from 'back in the day' - when cars had 3 speed automatics or, maybe, a 4 speed manual.  And with longish rear gears, some vehicles weren't in top gear when they went through the lights.  With today's new 8, 9, dare I say it, yes - even 10 speed transmissions, the ability to keep the car in the heart of the torque/HP bands is MUCH better than it used to be.  So it doesn't surprise me that an online calculator says something closer to 400HP.  I don't think it's that the vehicle is under rated and actually has more HP/torque -- it's that with more shifts in the run, a higher level of 'average' torque/power can be applied through the tires to the pavement during the run - resulting in quicker ET's and higher traps than we saw back in the day.   In a perfect world, the algorithm would be updated and ask for info about gearing, number of gears, etc.

Wonder who the first manufacturer will be to offer the Spinal Tap automatic transmission option?   11 speed.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/21/19 3:18 p.m.

Looks like the Supra was quite a bit underrated. Official numbers of 335/365 at the crank.

339/427! @ the wheels. That's quite a bit of twist at the wheels. 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27543113/2020-toyota-supra-dyno-horsepower/

NickD
NickD PowerDork
5/21/19 3:33 p.m.
z31maniac said:

Looks like the Supra was quite a bit underrated. Official numbers of 335/365 at the crank.

339/427! @ the wheels. That's quite a bit of twist at the wheels. 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27543113/2020-toyota-supra-dyno-horsepower/

They do warn that their torque reading might be a bit on the high side due to the torque converter not being locked up, but still, to make 4hp more at the tires than its rated at the crank shows that this engine is making some steam

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/21/19 3:43 p.m.

Yep I saw that part too, still falls in with what we had been saying that the modern BMW engines are underrated to begin with.

te72
te72 Reader
5/21/19 9:07 p.m.
MichaelYount said:

Wonder who the first manufacturer will be to offer the Spinal Tap automatic transmission option?   11 speed.

Lexus seems to be ahead of the curve when it comes to how many speeds are in a transmission, with the LS. They had a 5 speed starting in 1998, if I recall that far back. A six speed followed in 2003 (?) with the LS430. Few years later when the LS460 came out, it had an eight speed... in 2007.I'm drawing a blank on what the LS500 has, likely either a nine or ten speed.

 

However, that said... does it come to a point where you have more gears than uses for them? Personally, I wish my Supra had a REALLY tall (like 0.50 or 0.40) fifth gear. The first four are great for acceleration with the 4.11 rear gear, but it keeps the rpm's up over 3k at highway speeds. Would likely be able to see respectable mpg if it had a longer fifth. Fourth will reach 150mph, so there aren't going to be many situations that I actually NEED fifth for anything other than cruising.

 

On the subject of the Mk5 here, that's a mighty impressive torque output. Bodes well for some breathing mods if the top end of the engine will allow any extra revs.

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
5/22/19 7:58 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

That 5 - 6 - more than 6 progression for gears is about right for what other high end cars did.  BMW went 5spd auto in the 7 series in 95 (93 for some 5 series models), 6spd in 02, not sure beyond that.  

And yes, unless you have an engine with a very narrow powerband, you can definitely hit a point where skipping gears will make more sense than using every one (especially if your trans doesn't shift super fast and it has to back the power off some on the shifts).  But having the extra gears means you'll never have a speed where there's no good gear for a WOT downshift and you can get a wider overall range like you're wanting.  

MichaelYount
MichaelYount HalfDork
5/22/19 8:04 a.m.

Today's 8, 9, 10 speed transmissions developed largely to optimize fuel mileage and meet increasingly stringent CAFE regs....decent overview here -- https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/need-10-speeds/ with Aisin, Ford/GM and ZF being the big players.

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
5/22/19 1:09 p.m.

So Car & Driver strapped their Supra to a dyno.... (Quoted from Jalopnik)

 

To recap, the Supra packs a twin-scroll turbo 3.0-liter inline-six BMW engine called the B58B30M1. It’s rated at 335 HP and 365 lb-ft of torque. But given that this sports cars weighs in at 3,397 pounds but can do zero to 60 mph in under four seconds, it certainly feels more powerful than that.

C&D’s dyno test, done at Livernois Motorsports and Engineering in Dearborn Heights, Michigan, appears to confirm this. Their Supra came in at 339 HP and 427 lb-ft of torque—at the wheels. It’s not uncommon for a car’s wheel horsepower to be less than what is claimed at the crank, but hot damn, is that torque figure a nice surprise.

ShinnyGroove
ShinnyGroove New Reader
5/22/19 1:25 p.m.

I'm dying to see what can be done to these with a simple intake/exhaust and tune.

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
5/22/19 1:51 p.m.

Here's some related stuff, regarding the transmission. For the record I'm a die hard manual transmission person, never owned an auto, but I think we need to be fair.

Andy Palmer, CEO of Aston Martin, who claims ZF’s 8HP is lighter, cheaper, and quicker than a dual-clutch transmission. “Ten years ago, [the dual-clutch] still looked like the transmission of the future. Now it is starting to look like the transmission of the past,” he tells us. But the DCT finds refuge in supercars. The added length of a torque converter can be prohibitive in a mid-engine architecture, and precise launch-control programs provide an advantage in acceleration. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23367341/automatic-transmission-best-zf-eight-speed/

I remember when Audi debuted the 8HP in the A4. More gears don't seem to be a bad thing. According to C&D: Last year, Audi switched from a six-speed automatic to an eight-speed auto, and it has had a transformative effect. Acceleration to 60 mph has gone from a lackluster 6.4 seconds to 5.6.  https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15121087/2012-bmw-328i-vs-2012-audi-a4-20t-2012-infiniti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-awd-comparison-tests/

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS HalfDork
5/23/19 8:14 a.m.

Funny Toyota....  your other sporty car sells lot of manuals

https://jalopnik.com/u-s-buyers-still-overwhelmingly-choose-a-manual-for-th-1834945061/amp

But keep telling how awesome that torque converter is.....  I’m sure F1 will be using torque converters soon and we’ll see them at LeMans soon.

Auto makers, making what they want instead of what the customer wants and then blaming the customer for it....  a recipe for success.

 

 

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
5/23/19 8:20 a.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS :

Dual clutch boxes and such work fine for racing.  IMO, they don't belong in a street car.  Either give me a manual where I've got full control of the clutch, etc. or just give me a well programmed torque converter auto.  

MTechnically
MTechnically Reader
5/23/19 8:36 a.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS :

While I would rather have the new Supra, or any performance car for that matter, with a manual. I totally understand Toyotas decision to debut the Supra with the ZF 8 speed. We all know that the take rate on manuals is dropping significantly, especially as you move up in price point. For a car that almost didn't get made it's no surprise that Toyota played it safe and went with the automatic. Reviews have been pretty positive about the Supra specific programming as well. Since the Z4 can be spec'd with a six speed, most  journalists are anticipating an additional version of the Supra with a manual option. I hope that Toyota does decide to offer it at some point because it would really be a compelling option for a modern enthusiast car.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
5/23/19 8:37 a.m.
AnthonyGS said:

Funny Toyota....  your other sporty car sells lot of manuals

https://jalopnik.com/u-s-buyers-still-overwhelmingly-choose-a-manual-for-th-1834945061/amp

But keep telling how awesome that torque converter is.....  I’m sure F1 will be using torque converters soon and we’ll see them at LeMans soon.

Auto makers, making what they want instead of what the customer wants and then blaming the customer for it....  a recipe for success.

 

 

And then Genesis offers the new G70 with a manual and a bunch of other goodies and sells maybe 100/quarter

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
5/23/19 10:21 a.m.

Yeah, I think the price point difference makes FRS sales a poor predictor of what Supra customers want.  Not the same target market. That's like saying supercar customers want a cheap rattly interior in the GT because it sells so well in the Mustang.... 

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise HalfDork
7/3/19 12:03 p.m.
ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
7/3/19 12:35 p.m.

Isn't that the one that blew up and burned spectacularly on it's first public outing?

NickD
NickD PowerDork
7/3/19 1:12 p.m.
ultraclyde said:

Isn't that the one that blew up and burned spectacularly on it's first public outing?

No, it's a different one. The first one was built by Daigo Saito's Fat Five Racing. And that one didn't really blow up the engine, or burn to the ground either. There was a small fire underneath.

Error404
Error404 New Reader
7/4/19 8:57 p.m.

It looks enough like a Z4 that I won't really be able to see it as anything else. Possibly because it basically is.

Push button start. Covers on everything. Lots of electronics to expensively fail.

Yea... I am not the target audience for this by a long shot but I also have no desire to be in that audience.

jj
jj HalfDork
8/16/19 10:31 a.m.

YouTube “Jackie Ding”. To see one of these at 10/10ths on a road course.  If I remember right it did a 1:19 at TMP on stock tires. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/16/19 10:42 a.m.
Error404 said:

Push button start.

Most cars have pushbutton start these days.

my '13 135, my '15 BRZ, my current '18 Mazda 3, my girlfriends '16 Honda Fit............all pushbutton start. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
8/16/19 10:52 a.m.
jj said:

YouTube “Jackie Ding”. To see one of these at 10/10ths on a road course.  If I remember right it did a 1:19 at TMP on stock tires. 

 

MotorsportsGordon
MotorsportsGordon HalfDork
8/16/19 12:08 p.m.
AnthonyGS said:

Funny Toyota....  your other sporty car sells lot of manuals

https://jalopnik.com/u-s-buyers-still-overwhelmingly-choose-a-manual-for-th-1834945061/amp

But keep telling how awesome that torque converter is.....  I’m sure F1 will be using torque converters soon and we’ll see them at LeMans soon.

Auto makers, making what they want instead of what the customer wants and then blaming the customer for it....  a recipe for success.

 

 

 

chaparral used torque converters successfully back in the day.

jj
jj HalfDork
8/16/19 2:28 p.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

That’s the one. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/16/19 2:53 p.m.
MotorsportsGordon said:
AnthonyGS said:

Funny Toyota....  your other sporty car sells lot of manuals

https://jalopnik.com/u-s-buyers-still-overwhelmingly-choose-a-manual-for-th-1834945061/amp

But keep telling how awesome that torque converter is.....  I’m sure F1 will be using torque converters soon and we’ll see them at LeMans soon.

Auto makers, making what they want instead of what the customer wants and then blaming the customer for it....  a recipe for success.

 

 

 

chaparral used torque converters successfully back in the day.

I don't understand the torque converter/DCT argument. If you can make the ZF 8spd, perform like a BMW/VAG DCT, who cares what the exact technology is? It could be 87 hamsters in there running a pulley system, if it's just as fast, predictable, and reliable............I don't see the problem. 

 

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