How a Little Too Much Copper Means a Ban for the Camaro SS and ZL1 in California and Washington

Sometimes, a little too much of a good thing can mean disaster. In this case, it’s the amount of copper found in the Brembo-sourced brake pads used in the current Chevrolet Camaro SS and ZL1, as well as 1LE-equipped models.

Starting in January of 2021, any car with brake pads that contain “more than 5% of copper” will not be allowed to be sold in both California and Washington. The measure is an extension of a law signed into effect in 2014 that banned pads that contain any amount of heavy metals and asbestos known as the “California Motor Vehicle Brake Friction Material Law.”

The ban came about after studies concluded that dust from brake use (as well as a certain chemical found in many tires) can be especially harmful to aquatic wildlife.

News of the ban appeared over at musclecarandtrucks.com, who pointed out that although dealers in both states are legally required to stop stocking their showrooms with the SS and ZL1, they are still allowed to sell the examples that they currently have in stock.

Speaking to enthusiast website GM Authority, Chevrolet spokesperson Kevin Kelly explained that the company is actively working to revise its SS, ZL1 and 1LE braking systems to be compliant with the state measures for 2022.

However, the website also points out that Ford and Dodge have already adjusted the recipes to comply with the ban.

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Comments
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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/9/20 1:08 p.m.

That's a fun one. IIRC there's a Jeep model that can't be sold in Connecticut because it has too many forward-facing lights from the factory.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/9/20 1:14 p.m.

Anyone know if this is going to impact aftermarket pads?

 

jimbbski
jimbbski SuperDork
12/9/20 1:21 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I would bet money on that happening if it isn't already written into the rule/law.

nocones
nocones UltraDork
12/9/20 1:26 p.m.

I kinda hope the entire industry responds by removing the copper and other bad heavy metals.  I mean if the consequence is slightly reduced breaking or increased pad wear that's an ok trade off for reduce impacts to wildlife.  

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Reader
12/9/20 1:29 p.m.

Aren't the stock pads on the 1LE Camaros basically a full-blown track pad?  It always seemed like one of their selling points that the car is basically track-ready off the dealer lot.  Seems like a regular street pad would be challenged to stop a car with that much power/weight on the track.

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed UltraDork
12/9/20 1:31 p.m.
nocones said:

I kinda hope the entire industry responds by removing the copper and other bad heavy metals.  I mean if the consequence is slightly reduced breaking or increased pad wear that's an ok trade off for reduce impacts to wildlife.  

Agreed.  

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/9/20 1:31 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

That's a fun one. IIRC there's a Jeep model that can't be sold in Connecticut because it has too many forward-facing lights from the factory.

That's silly. No factory Jeep lighting throws more than 50 feet anyway. 
 

Javelin (Forum Supporter)
Javelin (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 1:33 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Anyone know if this is going to impact aftermarket pads?

 

It has been since 2014. If you look at the side of the brake pad box there is a leaf diagram with 0, 1, 2, or 3 leaves filled in to show the pads compliance with the various parts of the law.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
12/9/20 1:35 p.m.

OK, I get it. And I applaud the intentions and all that.

 

But has nobody done an impact assessments of Humans on the planet and come to any similar conclusions? "Hello Elephant in the Room!"

 

Feeling Grumpy..off to club some cute unborn baby whales or something....

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
12/9/20 1:39 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

In related news.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/9/20 2:23 p.m.
Duke said:
Keith Tanner said:

That's a fun one. IIRC there's a Jeep model that can't be sold in Connecticut because it has too many forward-facing lights from the factory.

That's silly. No factory Jeep lighting throws more than 50 feet anyway. 
 

Yet at that 50' they are all focused directly on your eyes. Every. Single. One.

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 3:01 p.m.

So, they'll change the pads. Somehow other high-performance cars seem to be able to stop with "Cali-legal" pads (or so I assume, unless a bunch of other cars are banned too). Seems like a lot of non-story here. 

GCrites80s
GCrites80s HalfDork
12/9/20 3:09 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

That's a fun one. IIRC there's a Jeep model that can't be sold in Connecticut because it has too many forward-facing lights from the factory.

In Ohio, it used to be that a motorcycle couldn't have more that two headlights or it wasn't a motorcycle any more. I don't know if that's still true.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/9/20 3:13 p.m.
GCrites80s said:
Keith Tanner said:

That's a fun one. IIRC there's a Jeep model that can't be sold in Connecticut because it has too many forward-facing lights from the factory.

In Ohio, it used to be that a motorcycle couldn't have more that two headlights or it wasn't a motorcycle any more. I don't know if that's still true.

I would have concentrated more on counting the wheels, but that's just me...

BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter)
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 3:18 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
GCrites80s said:
Keith Tanner said:

That's a fun one. IIRC there's a Jeep model that can't be sold in Connecticut because it has too many forward-facing lights from the factory.

In Ohio, it used to be that a motorcycle couldn't have more that two headlights or it wasn't a motorcycle any more. I don't know if that's still true.

I would have concentrated more on counting the wheels, but that's just me...

That just seems a tad too, well, obvious?

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 3:33 p.m.
nocones said:

I kinda hope the entire industry responds by removing the copper and other bad heavy metals.  I mean if the consequence is slightly reduced breaking or increased pad wear that's an ok trade off for reduce impacts to wildlife.  
 

and our lungs

 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
12/9/20 3:34 p.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Remember this Headline a while back?

 

 

Spiders could theoretically eat every human on Earth in one year

Error404
Error404 Reader
12/9/20 3:35 p.m.
Appleseed said:
Duke said:
Keith Tanner said:

That's a fun one. IIRC there's a Jeep model that can't be sold in Connecticut because it has too many forward-facing lights from the factory.

That's silly. No factory Jeep lighting throws more than 50 feet anyway. 
 

Yet at that 50' they are all focused directly on your eyes. Every. Single. One.

Them along with every pickup and Lexus sold in recent memory. No sense having a taller hood if you can't get the lights higher and more "aggressive" while you're doing it. 

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 3:40 p.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

So, they'll change the pads. Somehow other high-performance cars seem to be able to stop with "Cali-legal" pads (or so I assume, unless a bunch of other cars are banned too). Seems like a lot of non-story here. 

Yup, a TSB and some time spent swapping pads and they are back on the lots.   The collector nerds will snap up the old pads to resell on eBay, etc. to those that want that "exclusivity" and if someone respected in that world comes out and states that the "old" pads were somehow better?  Practically printing money (as far as selling old brake pads goes).

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
12/9/20 3:44 p.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

So, they'll change the pads. Somehow other high-performance cars seem to be able to stop with "Cali-legal" pads (or so I assume, unless a bunch of other cars are banned too). Seems like a lot of non-story here. 

Do those other cars also have warranties that cover track work?  I suspect that's probably what makes the change a bit trickier.  

It can be done, for sure, but it may not be as simple as just changing the formula.  Might need more rotor mass/diameter, cooling, etc?  I'm no expert at pad composition, just speculating.

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/9/20 3:59 p.m.

Is this really the best way to make an environmental impact?  How about they look at carbon credits...or maybe get cops to switch off their ignitions instead of letting their patrol cars idle 16 hours a day? 

This is left coast political theater.

Javelin (Forum Supporter)
Javelin (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 4:13 p.m.
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:

Is this really the best way to make an environmental impact?  How about they look at carbon credits...or maybe get cops to switch off their ignitions instead of letting their patrol cars idle 16 hours a day? 

This is left coast political theater.

There's nothing political about it. Research found toxic levels of copper in San Francisco Bay and other bodies of water, ultimately concluding that runoff from brake dust was responsible for 60% of it. Copper is relatively "cheap" as an ingredient in brake pads and most high-end brakes have been copper-free for years. The law was from 2010 and every other supplier managed to get it figured out by now, including the aftermarket. Note that Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, Shelby, etc can all still sell there cars as normal. GM got caught with their supplier's pants down (again) being cheap.

https://www.hella-pagid.com/hellapagid/assets/media/Copper-free_Brake_Pads_4.2017.pdf

 

 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 4:14 p.m.
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:

Is this really the best way to make an environmental impact?  How about they look at carbon credits...or maybe get cops to switch off their ignitions instead of letting their patrol cars idle 16 hours a day? 

This is left coast political theater.

How would carbon credits help copper poisoning?  

Rons
Rons Reader
12/9/20 4:22 p.m.
kb58
kb58 SuperDork
12/9/20 5:22 p.m.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Aren't the stock pads on the 1LE Camaros basically a full-blown track pad?  It always seemed like one of their selling points that the car is basically track-ready off the dealer lot.  Seems like a regular street pad would be challenged to stop a car with that much power/weight on the track.

This wouldn't surprise me. I mean, the way some car makers create "sports" cars these days is, instead of cutting weight, they put on really sticky tires and huge brakes, because that's what it takes to slow down these modern-day behemoths.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
12/9/20 6:14 p.m.
NOHOME said:

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Remember this Headline a while back?

 

 

Spiders could theoretically eat every human on Earth in one year

I wish they would get to it then.

pkingham (Forum Supporter)
pkingham (Forum Supporter) Reader
12/9/20 6:41 p.m.

What's bothered me most about this bit of 'news' is how it has been portrayed by much of the media, especially that targeting the automotive enthusiast crowd.  Many headlines make it seem like a new action from these states is targeting these vehicles to ban them.   The reality is that it is a several years old law which has another step in limits coming at the beginning of next year.  None of that is new.  It appears that GM missed it for these low volume vehicles and will have to source and qualify a different brake pad.  But the headlines all scream that these states are targeting these particularly high performance vehicles.  The original post here doesn't have that hyperbole in the headline, but the lead photo still says "BANNED".  I see no value in riling up the car enthusiasts to believe that these states are actively targeting these cars.  Sure, there are a lot of folks who are actively anti-car, and there will be other laws we may object to, but winding up an uninformed and unaimed mass is counterproductive.

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
12/9/20 8:44 p.m.

Here's an example of some politicians trying to win some votes for the next election cycle by going after small things that make it look like they are "caring for the environment." Instead of focusing on bigger issues like industrial polution. 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia SuperDork
12/9/20 8:52 p.m.

this happened a few years ago in Australia , 

There was an asbestos ban put in about 10 years before but never really pushed ,

But someone found this law and  decided to hit the import car market , 

So you needed to prove you did not have asbestos in the car you were importing.....

So pull the brakes , exhaust manifold gaskets etc ,  undercoating  etc

That is what this  copper ban seems to be , ignore it to the very end and then moan !

 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 9:00 p.m.
pkingham (Forum Supporter) said:

  Many headlines make it seem like a new action from these states is targeting these vehicles to ban them.   

"How a Little Too Much Copper Means a Ban for the Camaro SS and ZL1 in California and Washington?" Because when I read this thread title, I assumed the actual cars were going to be banned over some actual structural thing involving copper. Not over easily-replaced brake pads.....

If a place like GRM is making sensational/misleading headlines like this, not surprising non-car publications would as well.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
12/9/20 9:01 p.m.

GM is gigantic, and cars like the Camaro are bound to have a host of aftermarket pad options. How hard would it really have been for Chevy to have a set of "Cali Compliant" parts for that market? Getting to the point where GM is barred from selling certain cars in the #1 US market over a brake pad sounds like someone in the Camaro management chain needs to be sacked.

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 9:07 p.m.
DirtyBird222 said:

Here's an example of some politicians trying to win some votes for the next election cycle by going after small things that make it look like they are "caring for the environment." Instead of focusing on bigger issues like industrial polution. 

More likely, here's an example of a mundane environmental regulation being enforced by some bureaucratic agency (which is their job), probably not expecting the general public would even notice, and then the automotive media (I'd bet SEMA is on the frontline of this hype machine) whips it up to make it sound like a big deal.

It isn't a big deal. It's a sensible regulation that can EASILY be mitigated by GM by simply changing to different pads. Environmental stewardship isn't mutually exclusive to performance automobiles. This is low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick.

I mean, that's like saying "getting rid of Asbestos brake pads was just a political ploy." 

In reality, GM *should* have been out front of this with marketing saying "we are changing our brakes to a more environmentally-conscious material, because we care about your health when you're driving our cars." But of course, GM isn't very good at getting out ahead of things. 

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise UltraDork
12/9/20 9:35 p.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

If a place like GRM is making sensational/misleading headlines like this

well said!!!! 

fasted58
fasted58 MegaDork
12/9/20 9:38 p.m.

These cars were marketed and built as 'track ready' cars, hence those brake pads.

Easy way around this is that state affected cars get compliant pads/ include a set of boxed race pads in the trunk or order from Chevy performance parts. 

No need for all this berkeleying drama.

Geezoi

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/9/20 10:09 p.m.
fasted58 said:

These cars were marketed and built as 'track ready' cars, hence those brake pads.

Easy way around this is that state affected cars get compliant pads/ include a set of boxed race pads in the trunk or order from Chevy performance parts. 

No need for all this berkeleying drama.

Geezoi

Yep, there are other "track-ready" cars sold in California (Porsche GT3 comes to mind). They don't seem to be affected by this law. All in all, I'm sure there are other pad options for GM, they just botched it by not doing their due diligence. As you say, no need for all the drama. This should be a simple correction - especially considering these are low-volume cars and the great majority of them will never see a track anyhow. 

Side note: The stock (Pagid) pads on a GT3 are $510 PER AXLE SET. Insane. 

procainestart
procainestart Dork
12/9/20 10:45 p.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:
DirtyBird222 said:

Here's an example of some politicians trying to win some votes for the next election cycle by going after small things that make it look like they are "caring for the environment." Instead of focusing on bigger issues like industrial polution. 

More likely, here's an example of a mundane environmental regulation being enforced by some bureaucratic agency (which is their job), probably not expecting the general public would even notice, and then the automotive media (I'd bet SEMA is on the frontline of this hype machine) whips it up to make it sound like a big deal.

It isn't a big deal. It's a sensible regulation that can EASILY be mitigated by GM by simply changing to different pads. Environmental stewardship isn't mutually exclusive to performance automobiles. This is low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick.

I mean, that's like saying "getting rid of Asbestos brake pads was just a political ploy." 

In reality, GM *should* have been out front of this with marketing saying "we are changing our brakes to a more environmentally-conscious material, because we care about your health when you're driving our cars." But of course, GM isn't very good at getting out ahead of things. 

It's not just politicians trying to get re-elected. Salmon fisheries in Washington state are a huge deal, economically and culturally. In addition, Chinook salmon (and to a much lesser extent, coho, the ones most affected by the chemical recently ID'd in tires) are the main diet of the state's dwindling orcas, which are on the endangered species list and also a large tourist draw for the state. People who care about the state's natural resources and people who are more concerned with the economic impacts of toxic metals in brakes both support the ban; there was broad bipartisan support for it (incidentally, the law was passed in 2010). In 2016, a stakeholder group of nearly 30 people was convened by the state to determine how to phase out copper-containing brakes; roughly half were automotive industry representatives, including, as it happens, one from GM.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
12/10/20 12:12 a.m.

In reply to californiamilleghia :

A guy in the Ducati Bevel forums got nailed with that trying to bring a bike into Oz.

He must have done something to upset the inspector because he was trying to prove contents of gaskets, exhaust packings, brakes, etc.

It's madness.

Yes, new cars, absolutely, legislate away but I doubt that a vintage motorcycle, used to blat around backroads on weekends is going to cause any extinctions.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
12/10/20 5:47 a.m.
NOHOME said:

OK, I get it. And I applaud the intentions and all that.

 

But has nobody done an impact assessments of Humans on the planet and come to any similar conclusions? "Hello Elephant in the Room!"

Yes.  For instance, they found that the brake pads that humans use in their motor vehicles are detrimental to aquatic wildlife if they contain too many of certain compounds...

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
12/10/20 5:53 a.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:Side note: The stock (Pagid) pads on a GT3 are $510 PER AXLE SET. Insane. 

That's about what the stock pads for a RAM Promaster cost, too.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 6:13 a.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:
DirtyBird222 said:

Here's an example of some politicians trying to win some votes for the next election cycle by going after small things that make it look like they are "caring for the environment." Instead of focusing on bigger issues like industrial polution. 

More likely, here's an example of a mundane environmental regulation being enforced by some bureaucratic agency (which is their job), probably not expecting the general public would even notice, and then the automotive media (I'd bet SEMA is on the frontline of this hype machine) whips it up to make it sound like a big deal.

It isn't a big deal. It's a sensible regulation that can EASILY be mitigated by GM by simply changing to different pads. Environmental stewardship isn't mutually exclusive to performance automobiles. This is low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick.

I mean, that's like saying "getting rid of Asbestos brake pads was just a political ploy." 

In reality, GM *should* have been out front of this with marketing saying "we are changing our brakes to a more environmentally-conscious material, because we care about your health when you're driving our cars." But of course, GM isn't very good at getting out ahead of things. 

The laws that made this particular law allowed passed many years ago.  Nobody needs to be re-elected based on this, even if anyone tries to use it to get re-elected (which does happen).  This is a group of scientists who look at an environmental problem, identify what caused it, and then make rules to prevent it from happening again.

Pretty much every tightening of the emissions laws for what I do dates back to congressional approval signed by Nixon.  There have been some additions- to include new constituents, but the base law that supports the change passed almost 50 years ago.  (or longer if you live in CA)

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 6:46 a.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

 

This is low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick.

Ask someone in the brake friction material industry how high they had to climb to get this low-hanging fruit. Over the course of 7 years, it took many hundreds of thousands of engineering man-hours, thousands of dynamometer tests, pressing and curing process modifications, etc.

to the end customer, it's low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick. you're welcome.

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 9:33 a.m.
gearheadmb said:
NOHOME said:

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Remember this Headline a while back?

 

 

Spiders could theoretically eat every human on Earth in one year

I wish they would get to it then.

Truth. They have 21-days left, get to work already. 

aw614
aw614 Reader
12/10/20 10:00 a.m.
Stefan (Forum Supporter) said:
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

So, they'll change the pads. Somehow other high-performance cars seem to be able to stop with "Cali-legal" pads (or so I assume, unless a bunch of other cars are banned too). Seems like a lot of non-story here. 

Yup, a TSB and some time spent swapping pads and they are back on the lots.   The collector nerds will snap up the old pads to resell on eBay, etc. to those that want that "exclusivity" and if someone respected in that world comes out and states that the "old" pads were somehow better?  Practically printing money (as far as selling old brake pads goes).

Like the craziness of people selling an old unopened bottle of ATE Superblue on ebay.

(I kept a bottle of Super Blue that was half full to collect ;) )

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 10:04 a.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

 

This is low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick.

Ask someone in the brake friction material industry how high they had to climb to get this low-hanging fruit. Over the course of 7 years, it took many hundreds of thousands of engineering man-hours, thousands of dynamometer tests, pressing and curing process modifications, etc.

to the end customer, it's low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick. you're welcome.

The "low-hanging fruit" comment was a reference to the the fact that brake pads can be easily physically changed  (as compared with, for instance, having to redesign an internal engine casting and replace THAT on every car). 
 

However, cry me a river for engineers who spent all that time and effort but for some reason weren't aware of already-existing regulations in one of the car's large markets. Apparently they either didn't do their professional due diligence, or they intentionally tried to "get away with it." Either way, it's on GM alone, and no sympathy is needed for these "hard-working" friction industry employees. This is what they get paid for and they botched it. 

 Nobody is lamenting the time and testing spent by hard-working Tachikara airbag inflator engineers, lol. 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 10:05 a.m.
aw614 said:
Stefan (Forum Supporter) said:
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

So, they'll change the pads. Somehow other high-performance cars seem to be able to stop with "Cali-legal" pads (or so I assume, unless a bunch of other cars are banned too). Seems like a lot of non-story here. 

Yup, a TSB and some time spent swapping pads and they are back on the lots.   The collector nerds will snap up the old pads to resell on eBay, etc. to those that want that "exclusivity" and if someone respected in that world comes out and states that the "old" pads were somehow better?  Practically printing money (as far as selling old brake pads goes).

Like the craziness of people selling an old unopened bottle of ATE Superblue on ebay.

(I kept a bottle of Super Blue that was half full to collect ;) )

I still have three unopened ones sealed in bags in my shop cabinet. But, I'll actually use them. 

Javelin (Forum Supporter)
Javelin (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 10:07 a.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

 

This is low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick.

Ask someone in the brake friction material industry how high they had to climb to get this low-hanging fruit. Over the course of 7 years, it took many hundreds of thousands of engineering man-hours, thousands of dynamometer tests, pressing and curing process modifications, etc.

to the end customer, it's low-hanging fruit that is super-simple to pick. you're welcome.

Patently false. I was working in the industry at the time and when the law passed something like 75% of the pads already on the market met the first tier for compliance with no changes. This was a super easy low hanging fruit that the friction companies were all for as they fought each other to be the first full line in compliance for the marketing. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 4:22 p.m.

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

Patently false? Go berkeley your mother. Where were you "in the industry" at the time? Counter jockey at AdvanPepZone? You know where I was? I was working at one of the largest friction material suppliers in the world, working on new formulations, crunching through mountains of data to determine what worked and what didn't, etc.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter):

or maybe GM said "we are not going to compromise performance in 48 states to appease two, we'll sell them as long as we can and then we won't." Swapping pads is easy. Developing, validating, and manufacturing a pad is not. Not asking for a River of tears, simply stating that there were no low-hanging fruit that were simply missed because of a lack of due diligence. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
12/10/20 4:45 p.m.

Don't the cars in question use cookie-cutter Brembo calipers?  I can't imagine that the solution doesn't exist already for another application.

 

Probably noisy/squealy when cold, but then again, the engine is also loud and gets poor fuel economy, why should the brakes be expected to be the same as a rental Malibu?

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 4:56 p.m.
Javelin (Forum Supporter)
Javelin (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 5:10 p.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Wow, Berk my mother?!? Seriously? And no I wasn't a counter jockey, I was the regional outside sales rep for a NAPA franchise with 17 stores. We had friction companies tripping over each other to get in. You're wrong on this and you know it. GM screwed the pooch and GM only. 

Javelin (Forum Supporter)
Javelin (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 5:10 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

Patently false? Go berkeley your mother. Where were you "in the industry" at the time? Counter jockey at AdvanPepZone? You know where I was? I was working at one of the largest friction material suppliers in the world, working on new formulations, crunching through mountains of data to determine what worked and what didn't, etc.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter):

or maybe GM said "we are not going to compromise performance in 48 states to appease two, we'll sell them as long as we can and then we won't." Swapping pads is easy. Developing, validating, and manufacturing a pad is not. Not asking for a River of tears, simply stating that there were no low-hanging fruit that were simply missed because of a lack of due diligence. 

FYI Mods

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 6:07 p.m.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Wow, Berk my mother?!? Seriously? And no I wasn't a counter jockey, I was the regional outside sales rep for a NAPA franchise with 17 stores. We had friction companies tripping over each other to get in. You're wrong on this and you know it. GM screwed the pooch and GM only. 

1. I'm not wrong. 2. I don't know that I'm wrong, because I'm not wrong. Consider who was closer to the work being done. Me. Now consider which one of us knows for sure what led GM to the decisions they made. Neither of us.

3. You stated 75% were clean on first pass. I posted a link to the National Science Foundation's database of brake friction materials showing over fifteen thousand entries. For the sake of discussion I will allow that percentage although without data I highly doubt it's accuracy. That means we the brake friction material developers had to address over three thousand seven hundred fifty of those entries to:

identify their applications;

propose / validate substitutions from the list of clean candidates;

develop and validate revisions to those formulations;

or develop and validate new formulations for those applications.

Every manufacturer selling vehicles in the USA worked directly with the friction material suppliers to develop, validate, and approve compliant formulations for their applications. Deciding to forego a small part of a small sales volume is far from lack of due diligence and / or screwing the pooch.

if you'd care to link sources that prove otherwise, I'm sure we'd all like to read them.

Jay_W
Jay_W SuperDork
12/10/20 6:12 p.m.

CA and WA must haaaaate the SpaceX Starship then, for burning up all that copper before almost sticking the landing...

Javelin (Forum Supporter)
Javelin (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 6:18 p.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

And they had 10 flipping years to do so. Porsche got it done. Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Lotus, Tesla, Ford, Toyota, Mitsubishi, everyone but GM got it done. I'm sure it took a lot of work to get the whole lines into compliance over the last decade, but your attitude about it is crap. I hope your mother is well.

Peabody
Peabody UltimaDork
12/10/20 6:24 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

Patently false? Go berkeley your mother. 

That right there is why 90% of the time I think AngryCorvair is a berkeleying douchebag

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
12/10/20 6:34 p.m.
Jay_W said:

CA and WA must haaaaate the SpaceX Starship then, for burning up all that copper before almost sticking the landing...

I am assuming that it is a certain copper compound that is the issue, and that is how they traced its source to brake linings.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 6:58 p.m.
Peabody said:
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

Patently false? Go berkeley your mother. 

That right there is why 90% of the time I think AngryCorvair is a berkeleying douchebag

Ah, revenge, thy taste is oh so sweet!  I had superlulz at that!

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/10/20 7:35 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

 

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter):

or maybe GM said "we are not going to compromise performance in 48 states to appease two, we'll sell them as long as we can and then we won't." Swapping pads is easy. Developing, validating, and manufacturing a pad is not. Not asking for a River of tears, simply stating that there were no low-hanging fruit that were simply missed because of a lack of due diligence. 

Well considering GM is now scrambling to find a solution to this so they can sell the cars in the 2 states, it would seem that either Big-GM either didn't know about the law, didn't know their pads had copper in them, or simply thought they could get away with it. If their plan was "we are not going to compromise for the sake of 2 states," why are they now scrambling to do exactly that?

And lol about the "for the sake of 48 states" part. California probably buys more high-end cars than half of those 48 other state states combined. No auto maker would purposely make a product they could not sell in the state that is by far the largest consumer of cars in the country. SOmeone somewhere in the decision/design/engineering chain berkeleyed up. Who it was, don't know and don't care. But let's not act like this was GM's intent, to not sell its cars in Cali. 

 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia SuperDork
12/10/20 7:48 p.m.

we wish you a Merry Christmas

we wish you a Merry Christmas

we wish you a Merry Christmas

we wish you a Merry Christmas

and a Happy New Year.........

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
12/10/20 8:35 p.m.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

I can see a Pointy-Haired Boss somewhere along the way deciding to intervene and save $20 per car (manufacturer net) by switching to a noncompliant specification, figuring that nobody would notice.  I wouldn't necessarily believe that it's a deliberate engineering decision.  After all, they DO make cars specifically for the California market emissions-wise.

 

And, really, when you think of it, all consumables are emissions, since they don't simply evaporate into nothingness. They just stop being car parts and start being the environment.  Even the plastics in the interior and paint on the sheetmetal are tallied up as evaporative emissions...

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
12/10/20 9:36 p.m.

Do I need to turn this car around? 

MotorsportsGordon
MotorsportsGordon HalfDork
12/10/20 11:49 p.m.

Yet they love ev vehicles which are full of copperhttps://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/A6192_ElectricVehicles-Infographic.pdf

Copper is a major component in EVs used in electric motors, batteries, inverters, wiring and in charging stations. A pure electric vehicle can contain more than a mile of copper wiring in its stator windings. The increasing demand will significantly impact the copper market.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
12/11/20 5:46 a.m.

In reply to MotorsportsGordon :

That's... disingenuous.  Copper wiring is not a consumable with the express purpose of being abraded to fine dust and left in the environment.

For that matter, a lot of aluminum alloys contain copper as part of the composition.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Reader
12/11/20 6:42 a.m.

Wow, California must really hate computers. And houses that have electricity. And pennies- what nerve they have to hate US currency!  And... (thinking of more things that have copper in them)

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
12/11/20 6:56 a.m.
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) said:
Keith Tanner said:
GCrites80s said:
Keith Tanner said:

That's a fun one. IIRC there's a Jeep model that can't be sold in Connecticut because it has too many forward-facing lights from the factory.

In Ohio, it used to be that a motorcycle couldn't have more that two headlights or it wasn't a motorcycle any more. I don't know if that's still true.

I would have concentrated more on counting the wheels, but that's just me...

That just seems a tad too, well, obvious?

I mean, it is Ohio so......

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/11/20 7:49 a.m.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Wow, California must really hate computers. And houses that have electricity. And pennies- what nerve they have to hate US currency!  And... (thinking of more things that have copper in them)

As Pete just posted, if all of those wore down and then deposited in a way that it harmed stuff, yea, they would.  But all of those products do not shed copper- they keep it.  If they were shedding the copper, they would not be working.  Including currency.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/11/20 8:11 a.m.

Everyone one of you who got riled up in this thread should really step away from the computer for a few days and go do something else.

Nick Comstock
Nick Comstock MegaDork
12/11/20 8:28 a.m.
Peabody said:
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

Patently false? Go berkeley your mother. 

That right there is why 90% of the time I think AngryCorvair is a berkeleying douchebag

Man,  that brings back some memories.  Thanks for the lols yes

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
12/11/20 8:30 a.m.
David S. Wallens said:

Do I need to turn this car around? 

Well, I mean you guys made the click bait/sensationalist title. I knew exactly how this thread was going to go before I opened it. 

"Man sticks fork in outlet, is shocked."

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
12/11/20 8:37 a.m.
z31maniac said:

Everyone one of you who got riled up in this thread should really head over here

fixed

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/11/20 8:46 a.m.
z31maniac said:

Everyone one of you who got riled up in this thread should really step away from the computer for a few days and go do something else.

everyone is stuck at home social distancing, and have already finished up 10x more car projects this year than expected :D

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/11/20 8:58 a.m.

So, here's a thought.

GM knew they could keep using the copper pads until the end of 2020. So maybe the plan all along was to equip the cars with copper pads until partway through the 2021 model year, then switch.

End result: dealers with 2021s in stock at the end of December can continue to sell what they have, but the 2022 models will be fully compliant. It fits with the headline but comes across as fully planned with only a 6 month (ish) period where no new cars of this type can be shipped to CA. Or maybe the new pads were planned to come online next month.

It's not as much fun to get outraged about it, but it's possible. The OEs are as stupid as internet outsiders seem to think they are.

mad_machine (Forum Supporter)
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/11/20 9:55 a.m.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:

Is this really the best way to make an environmental impact?  How about they look at carbon credits...or maybe get cops to switch off their ignitions instead of letting their patrol cars idle 16 hours a day? 

This is left coast political theater.

There's nothing political about it. Research found toxic levels of copper in San Francisco Bay and other bodies of water, ultimately concluding that runoff from brake dust was responsible for 60% of it. Copper is relatively "cheap" as an ingredient in brake pads and most high-end brakes have been copper-free for years. The law was from 2010 and every other supplier managed to get it figured out by now, including the aftermarket. Note that Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, Shelby, etc can all still sell there cars as normal. GM got caught with their supplier's pants down (again) being cheap.

https://www.hella-pagid.com/hellapagid/assets/media/Copper-free_Brake_Pads_4.2017.pdf

 

 

never mind all the boats, ships, and navel vessels with copper bottom paint?  Btw, full on copper bottom paint has been off the market for years, but the Navy still has access to it.  

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/11/20 10:28 a.m.

How odd. I literally noticed this thread within minutes of learning about the copper issue from a training video put out by Wagner.  I had no idea about the issue (the laws are from 2010) and now have seen it twice in ~30 minutes. 

In general it seems like this is pretty ideal. We got smart people solving problems, governments implementing solutions that the vast majority of everyone never even notice let alone dislike.. the fact that this is so mundanely scientific and bureaucratic is friggin excellent. If enough more of this stuff happened, we wouldn't be rapidly approaching the point where the main issue in national politics will be which candidate wants to wreck the world slower

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
12/11/20 11:29 a.m.

In reply to Vigo (Forum Supporter) :

Say you think of a plate of shrimp...

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/11/20 1:25 p.m.
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) said:
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:

Is this really the best way to make an environmental impact?  How about they look at carbon credits...or maybe get cops to switch off their ignitions instead of letting their patrol cars idle 16 hours a day? 

This is left coast political theater.

There's nothing political about it. Research found toxic levels of copper in San Francisco Bay and other bodies of water, ultimately concluding that runoff from brake dust was responsible for 60% of it. Copper is relatively "cheap" as an ingredient in brake pads and most high-end brakes have been copper-free for years. The law was from 2010 and every other supplier managed to get it figured out by now, including the aftermarket. Note that Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, Shelby, etc can all still sell there cars as normal. GM got caught with their supplier's pants down (again) being cheap.

https://www.hella-pagid.com/hellapagid/assets/media/Copper-free_Brake_Pads_4.2017.pdf

 

 

never mind all the boats, ships, and navel vessels with copper bottom paint?  Btw, full on copper bottom paint has been off the market for years, but the Navy still has access to it.  

 

The Navy is planning to stop using Type II hull paints (the ones with copper) soon, at least they were as of 2017 or 2018 when I read the article. I can't say I've followed up on the topic (it's not an interesting topic to me), so nut sure if they have made the switchover to non-copper paints yet. But USN is aware of the harm of copper paints. Just takes the government 10x longer than the commercial shipping industry to do anything lol...

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Reader
12/11/20 1:50 p.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Wow, California must really hate computers. And houses that have electricity. And pennies- what nerve they have to hate US currency!  And... (thinking of more things that have copper in them)

As Pete just posted, if all of those wore down and then deposited in a way that it harmed stuff, yea, they would.  But all of those products do not shed copper- they keep it.  If they were shedding the copper, they would not be working.  Including currency.

Apparently the sarcasm in my post wasn't as obvious as I had hoped.

Toebra
Toebra Dork
12/11/20 8:02 p.m.

What a silly story, non-story really.  

 

It seems more likely the copper in the bay is coming from agricultural or industrial sources than from passenger vehicles, far, far more likely.

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia SuperDork
12/11/20 8:28 p.m.

Do clutch discs have copper in the lining ?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
12/11/20 8:38 p.m.
californiamilleghia said:

Do clutch discs have copper in the lining ?

That's an interesting thought, one that I had as I considered the copper puck clutch in my RX-7.

However, the number of manual transmission vehicles on the road is vanishingly small, and clutch dust largely stays inside the bellhousing.  Many vehicles (Toyota trucks, at least) have the bellhousing sealed to atmosphere, to prevent water from getting in.

 

The nail in that coffin as far as weighted risks is concerned is that clutch disks just don't throw off all that much friction material.  The difference in thickness between new and worn out is remarkably small, whereas brake pads start out at 9-10mm thickness, or more in some cases, and will wear down to the backing plate in 40-50,000mi.

 

Simply put, clutches spend 99.999% of their per-mile lives not slipping, whereas brake pads spend ALL of their lives slipping, be it during actual braking, or just casually grazing the rotor while the brakes aren't applied.

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/11/20 11:59 p.m.

We exist in an interesting moment where it wasn't too many generations ago that life expectancy was 20 years shorter, yet tons of people in 2020 believe that a lot of the pollution problems we slowly chip away at are no big deal anyway. Kinda like a bunch of our grandmas were married to men who came back from WWII in a time before there was word for PTSD, in the same way we are heirs to a bunch of people who suffered and sometimes died from things we assume deserve no special attentioon because there wasn't strong enough science to draw the connections back then. Our ideas of what is normal and acceptable are partially based on the scientific ignorance of the past, because the past is what we learned was normal. Turns out tons of bad E36 M3 WAS normal, but it doesn't have to stay that way, and when normal is BAD it's important to acknowledge that so you don't become the obstacle to improving it. 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/12/20 6:57 a.m.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

LOL, no it didn't.  Sometimed the blurry eyes of the reader misses the obvious sometimes.

benzbaronDaryn
benzbaronDaryn SuperDork
12/12/20 12:44 p.m.

Kind of weird, I know the HH sintered pads I have on my motorcycle have a copper hue to them, I must be part of the problem.  Heavy metal runoff is some nasty stuff Cu, Ni, Ca, Pb, etc are all things we don't want in the environment, toxic and persistent.  The metals get converted to bioavailable type, next thing you are eating mud shark getting high on your own supply.  

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/12/20 6:03 p.m.
Vigo (Forum Supporter) said:

We exist in an interesting moment where it wasn't too many generations ago that life expectancy was 20 years shorter, yet tons of people in 2020 believe that a lot of the pollution problems we slowly chip away at are no big deal anyway. Kinda like a bunch of our grandmas were married to men who came back from WWII in a time before there was word for PTSD, in the same way we are heirs to a bunch of people who suffered and sometimes died from things we assume deserve no special attentioon because there wasn't strong enough science to draw the connections back then. Our ideas of what is normal and acceptable are partially based on the scientific ignorance of the past, because the past is what we learned was normal. Turns out tons of bad E36 M3 WAS normal, but it doesn't have to stay that way, and when normal is BAD it's important to acknowledge that so you don't become the obstacle to improving it. 

True but it has been a number of decades now since asbestos was verified as a hazardous material and eliminated from building insulation and brake pads and such. But we are still seeing ads for the lawyers doing asbestos suits lol

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