Do women in motorsports always get the credit they deserve?

Tim
By Tim Suddard
Sep 15, 2023 | Motorsports, Column, Women in Motorsports, Barbie | Posted in Columns | From the Nov. 2023 issue | Never miss an article

Photography Credit: Perry Bennett

Like most of the rest of the world, I recently saw the new “Barbie” movie. If I’m being honest, my wife very much wanted to see the movie, and I figured spending a couple of hours with Margot Robbie, the beautiful Australian actress who plays the lead role, couldn’t be all bad.

The movie does not deal at all with the …

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Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
9/15/23 8:49 a.m.

I am determined to continue learning throughout every day of my life. It certainly is one area of that process.

The family business aspect of GRM is one of my favorite things about it, and one of the things that I talk about when I make a recommendation.

singleslammer
singleslammer GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/15/23 9:22 a.m.

Terrific post Tim. Good on you for recognizing your preconceptions and being willing to address them. 

Thank you for posting this! 

Everyone, please take a read. 

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter)
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/15/23 9:33 a.m.

The new counter person at our local auto parts store is young woman fresh out of school. I always go to her because I appreciate the fact that she's there learning an automotive trade and I know she is feeling kind of out of her league. Most of the customers are men and most of them will do their best to avoid dealing with her which can be kind of handy because there is never a lineup at her counter. Those are do are sometimes very condescending and it irritates me. There are things she doesn't know yet but for the most part she's very competent and gets me my parts without any drama. 

NY Nick
NY Nick GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/15/23 9:39 a.m.

Nice post. I can say Mrs. NYN doesn't really enjoy the car hobby like I do but she is the leader, the one that keeps my entire family going in the right direction and without her running the show I would never have had the successes in life that I have so far. 

Oh and the movie was great, really makes you think about how people are pre-judged

zordak
zordak Reader
9/15/23 10:01 a.m.

My oldest daughter has been doing her own car repairs for years. Not just oil and tune ups but going as far as transmission replacements. Very proud of her.

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/15/23 10:45 a.m.

I've found that women are better long range planners and ensure execution of everything along the process and steps of the plan. How they manage to do it without a whiteboard in the garage with items written down months ago, that haven't been crossed off, or even started, yet dare not be erased, is beyond me. Guys, well, we'll laser focus on completing a task, possibly a complex or difficult one then bang out chest over the sense of accomplishment, as opposed to realizing that it's merely an single step of the greater process. 

 

I just hope that when more women start taking on larger project vehicles, then when it's time to load them on the trailer they still allow us to strap them down with a half turn in the strap, ratchet tight, give it a good shove and proclaim that it's not going anywhere. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
9/15/23 11:23 a.m.

This is a classic case of "don't judge a book by it's cover".

Motorsports and the car hobby are great because they are results orientated. We respect the accomplishments of people regardless of whether or not they are man or woman................period.

One doesn't need a Barbie movie or bias training...................all you need is "don't judge a book by it's cover".

If you do you're likely going to feel very silly later..........

 

Nicole Suddard
Nicole Suddard GRM+ Memberand Marketing Coordinator
9/15/23 11:26 a.m.
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

I just hope that when more women start taking on larger project vehicles, then when it's time to load them on the trailer they still allow us to strap them down with a half turn in the strap, ratchet tight, give it a good shove and proclaim that it's not going anywhere. 

The Mandalorian - This is the Way - YouTube

ConiglioRampante
ConiglioRampante Reader
9/15/23 11:39 a.m.

Nice write-up.
 

I don't think it's an overstatement to say VIR wouldn't even exist today if it wasn't for Connie Nyholm among others.

And my wife, who isn't a "car person," does notice when a F1 broadcast features Bernie Collins' expert commentary, or a camera shows a female engineer or mechanic toiling away on the pit wall or in the garage, right there among the men.  Or when I stream the ADAC Nurburgring 24 and they show the all-female Giti Tires team, or the WEC's Iron Dames.  

She also perked up during an interview with racer/owner Samantha Tan and Aurora Straus, both of whom (along with Katherine Legge, Christina Nielsen, Taylor Hagler, and too many more) could show this aging duffer the fast way around any track on any day ending in "Y."

That's a lot of words to say ignore the talent at your own risk.  The stopwatch doesn't lie.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/15/23 1:01 p.m.

Drag racing is way ahead for some reason. Since Shirley, women have routinely done extremely well, up to the Angelle, who basically dominated bikes and now Erica Enders, who is looking more and more like she'll have the most Pro Stock championships in history by the time she retires, and Britney Force, along with a bunch of others.

Clatta
Clatta GRM+ Memberand New Reader
9/15/23 1:25 p.m.

Apologizing for behavior I absolutely agree with - but apologizing for thoughts?  Nope

rhenry01
rhenry01 New Reader
9/15/23 1:48 p.m.

In these modern times even having a women's division in any sport is sexist. Motorsport is a team effort but we don't report on the crews that put a car across the line first, we always heap the accolades on the driver. So what difference does the driver's plumbing have to do with any of this? My crew chief Matthew keeps me running, in the place I need to be ... when I need to be there, tire temp checks, tire pressures, But how do the result sheets read ... car, maybe sponsor, and driver.

If the driver of the car is a female (girl or woman) then her name is on the sheet. Making a special effort to recognize an effort, by a female, equal to a male, is sexist. My wife would much rather be in her craft room quilting than in the shop with me getting greasy. Should I think better about a different female that would rather be in the shop than quilting? Are you saying my wife is less a woman because she doesn't like to go to the track with me?

We should recognize the efforts of everyone on a race team .... regardless of ther reproductive organs. [/rant]

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/15/23 2:22 p.m.

My ex- is very much a car person, although she has almost zero interest in motor sports (maybe mild interest in vintage racing).  Has her own tools and can use them when she has time to work on one of her 6 cars.   She is way better at planning to seeing a project to completion in a timely manner than I am.  Ages ago she tried autocross, but despite her better than average driving skills didn't want to deal with the learning curve of competition.

 

drtalon123
drtalon123 GRM+ Memberand New Reader
9/15/23 2:29 p.m.

In reply to rhenry01 :

I tried to give you an upvote for this, but clicking thumbs up showed a -1 on my end? I have no idea what the hell happened!

iansane
iansane GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/15/23 2:30 p.m.

In reply to rhenry01 :

I don't think it's about seeing specific females as better, more about not seeing them as any less than a male doing the same thing. (ala the parts counterperson example)

Nicole Suddard
Nicole Suddard GRM+ Memberand Marketing Coordinator
9/15/23 2:35 p.m.

In reply to drtalon123 :

That means the post had two downvotes and your upvote canceled one of them out, leaving it at -1.

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
9/15/23 3:17 p.m.

On a personal note:

I am married to a woman of color and if you hired her or treated her preferentially simple because she is a woman and or the fact that she's black she'd be pissed at you.

 I despise anything that remotely resembles implicit bias training. Why?

Because my Great Grandfather was a black man from Cuba (Google Claytonia Dorticus); while outwardly I look like the 89% white guy I am, I'm also aware of all my mother went through. She grew up in an Irish neighborhood (her father was Irish) and suffered all sorts of racial taunts. So when some patronizing putz tries to tell me I don't understand they get an earful. 

I feel the same way about racing; the person who coached me to become a competent off road rider just happens to be a former AMA Women's National MX Champ.......I sought out her advice because I knew she was best qualified to help.

Do note I appreciate Tim's honesty....................... 

 

dbmoore
dbmoore GRM+ Member
9/15/23 3:45 p.m.

A long time ago there was a young woman in my high school class (Class of 1961).  Not only was she very attractive and an honor student, she was easily the best mechanic in the class.  She had her own car (back then they were hot rods) which she tended to with great skill.  I was very fortunate to know her as she instilled a respect for women's ability in all fields.

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
9/15/23 4:37 p.m.

In reply to dbmoore :

There was a really petite young lady in my high school who was an avid cyclist.

So these guys, based on her size thought they'd go on a ride with her as how fast could she possibly be................she wiped the floor with them...............I laughed so hard as they retold the story. I find any sort of macho nonsense tiresome. The poor guys treated her so much different after that. 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/15/23 6:12 p.m.

Treat everyone like a person.  I just approach whoever, say hello, and then talk to them like people.  I even do this with toddlers.  I refuse to do the baby talk thing.  You never know what a person is interested in and what they know until you talk to them.  The young lady that works at my local parts store is incredible.  The fact she wants to be there and likes cars really shows.  She drives an old OBS too.  One of my colleagues at work his girlfriend (I predict they get married soon) is big into cars.  She keeps me informed of all the local car shows.  She has an RX-8 that was a cheap buy with a blown engine (go figure).  She probably has enough parts to build a 4 rotor if she wanted.  She and he also have an old MB 380 SL Vert they take to Euro shows.  It's gorgeous.  He is also the only person I know with a new 400Z. 

I have car friends, cheeseburger friends, wine friends, and cycling friends.  Some are men, some are women.  Some are from all over different parts of the world.   Some of my friends cross categories. They are all people.  We all have far more in common than anyone ever thinks.  The continued focus on our differences creates more problems than it solves. 

 

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Dork
9/15/23 6:23 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

We all have far more in common than anyone ever thinks.  The continued focus on our differences creates more problems than it solves. 

well worth repeating

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/15/23 7:21 p.m.

Katie and I were talking about this at the RallyCross Challenge held earlier this week in WV.  Specifically the different attitudes in rallycross vs autocross.  Maybe autocross garners more dorky engineer nerd type "omg I am talking to a girl wat do" people?  But rallycross was always my cone smashing home so I never really experienced autocross enough to see it.

Rallycross has always, IME, had husband and wife teams, or boyfriend and girlfriend, or now lately parent and daughter (Hi Bill and Becca!) and it has always seemed to be on equal footing.  Unless you have Brianne Corn in your class, in which case nobody is on equal footing with her smiley.  It has always seemed to be, like, okay, what tire pressure are you running, how are you taking that corner, when is the lunch truck going to show up?  One local, Valerie, is a true car person in the GRM sense and she is always going on about sorting out the carb on her latest acquisition or finding a diamond in the rough unicorn or what have you. 

I specifically told Katie during this conversation that when she inevitably beat me, it wasn't because I wasn't trying or anything smiley

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/15/23 7:32 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Well said.

A few years back, the shop where I was working was expanding and hiring.  One of the applicants happened to be female.  The manager brought it up and asked us how we would react to that. my only thought was as with anyone else - how are their skills, are they able to grow and learn, the usual things that make for a good technician.

 

Watch WRC service parks sometime, you'll see a nonzero number of women mechanics.  If they were not skilled and able to hustle, they would not be there.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/15/23 11:49 p.m.
L5wolvesf said:
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

We all have far more in common than anyone ever thinks.  The continued focus on our differences creates more problems than it solves. 

well worth repeating

Yes days could be spent on this topic alone. 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/15/23 11:52 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

In TX there are two people you don't want in your class, Brianne C. and Blanton P.  :).  Blanton is still the only person to drive my car faster than I ever did.  Of course Brianne never drove it :).  

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
9/16/23 12:17 a.m.

Shirley Muldowney doesn't get talked about nearly enough.  She beat everyone in 77, 80, and 82. I can't think of another women who's not just won races, but whole championships.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/16/23 1:22 a.m.

In reply to Appleseed :

Michele Mouton nearly won the driver's title were it not for her car failing her at a single event.  Audis were pretty crap that way.

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
9/16/23 7:35 a.m.

While I was instructing, females tended to be my best students. They would LISTEN. One of the highlights of those days was being the first track day instructor for Christina Lam. She got so much faster I actually thought it was my instructing instead of her talent. laugh

Some of the best body shop estimators I deal with at work are women.

Meanwhile, SCCA still segregates autocross with the Ladies Class. no

preach
preach GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/16/23 8:49 a.m.

I have followed Iron Dames since this last 24Hr Le Mans. I think they are great.

Gearhead49
Gearhead49 New Reader
9/18/23 12:49 p.m.
Tim Suddard said:

Like most of the rest of the world, I recently saw the new “Barbie” movie. If I’m being honest, my wife very much wanted to see the movie, and I figured spending a couple of hours with Margot Robbie, the beautiful Australian actress who plays the lead role, couldn’t be all bad.

The movie does not deal at all with …

Read the rest of the story

When I first started out in the 70s there was a husband/wife team who I competed against.  The wife elected to compete in the men's class because she said it prepared her better for the national competition.  I first had to get good enough to beat her and then set my sights on him beating him once in the last season I was able to compete against them.  When I did my first HPDE with COM at the old Bryar Motorsports Park we were instructed by a husband/wife team who both raced in SCCA events.  My daughter started doing HPDE events from the time she was 16 years old and became an advanced driver in the hobby.  While generalizations are usually to be avoided I can tell you in my years of HPDE instructing I prefer women students because their approach is they are open to learning the new experience while every male thinks they already know how to "drive".  Saying all this and despite all the advances made there is still a bias that continues and we all need to be encouraging and supporting of all who want to enjoy our hobby.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/18/23 1:03 p.m.

In reply to ddavidv :

Absolutley. Well said.

My dad was a semi-pro motorcycle racer. All his friends were similarly fast, and as it happens, some of their girlfriends were as well. My approach was to go faster until I crashed. Rinse, lather, repeat. What the fast women riders understood that my testoserone-addled brain couldn't was that it's folly to try and muscle around a machine that's 50 times stronger than oneself. Unfortunately, sexism is alive and well in a general sense. But I think that most people, when presented with clear evidence that some women can "run with the big boys"  will give them their just due. I certainly do.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/18/23 1:42 p.m.
Appleseed said:

Shirley Muldowney doesn't get talked about nearly enough.  She beat everyone in 77, 80, and 82. I can't think of another women who's not just won races, but whole championships.

Did you read my post? Angelle won three and Erica Enders won five. There were others. The NHRA is seemingly a great home for women.

wspohn
wspohn SuperDork
9/18/23 3:46 p.m.

Sex should have nothing to do with it.  Whoever does a better job gets credit, and if it isn't that way, that lays at the door of the chauvinists who downplay the performance of the female drivers.

In many cases, the women have an advantage over the men - they more often drive with their brains instead of their glands.  I knew a couple who both ran the same car in the races I was running. If anything, she was smoother and did a better job of driving than he did - he had a tendency to get caught up in the race an take chances as the red cloud came down and clouded his better judgment. She was a tad faster than he was despite all that and was much cooler under pressure.

And she did get the credit due to her for doing a good job.  So unless you ask the idiots that think a woman can never be as good/fast as a man (and there is no shortage of such out there) I think they do get credit due.

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
9/18/23 4:02 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Appleseed :

Michele Mouton nearly won the driver's title were it not for her car failing her at a single event.  Audis were pretty crap that way.

And that Audi was not the easiest thing to drive, anyone who could tame a Group B rally car deserve all the respect.  

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
9/18/23 4:56 p.m.

If an unknown man and unknown woman show up at an autox, which of them will more of the other drivers assume is the driver vs spectator? If it turns out they're co-driving the car, and one is running as a 'novice' while the other is running as a 'pro', which will more of the other racers assume is which? And when the car simultaneously takes FTD and FTDI, which would more of the other drivers be more surprised to find out was driving the car at the time? Oh sure, they can heap their 'enlightened' accolades on how fast she was after the fact, but she would still have had her equality inherently doubted more than his right from the very start.

Whether or not women in motorsports (or any male dominated field) get the credit they deserve is as much about the due consideration given to them at the beginning of the day, as it is at the end of the day.

All of these anecdotes that give 'credit' to the capabilities of women in motorsports serve a very important purpose, but also actually underscores the lack of credit women in general have gotten and continue to get. Otherwise these stories would cease to be anecdotes, because they would no longer have a point to make.

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