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Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/3/20 2:17 p.m.

Clean and flow test yourself! You just need the rail and the injectors and the pump, and 4 containers.

 

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress Reader
2/5/20 2:02 p.m.

In reply to Robbie :

Ha! I love how most advice for the challenge boils down to "Be a man and figure out how to do it yourself instead of paying somebody."

Is there a approved GRM method for this on the forums someplace? A quick google search didn't show me much.

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/5/20 2:16 p.m.

Calvin did a show and tell on this during his concour presentation a few years back, but the process is pretty simple (to flow test at least - I think the professional cleaning is a bit more thorough than what most diyers pull off).

But what I remember is you basically take the vehicle fuel system (pump, rail, injectors) and make it run outside the car. So then you can pump cleaner through them instead of gas, and if you have 4 individual containers, you can fire them all for a specified amount of time and see what volume they flow.

If I were doing this I might also consider dropping them in an ultrasonic cleaner for a few hours just to be extra clean.

Fladiver64
Fladiver64 GRM+ Memberand Reader
2/5/20 2:22 p.m.

9 volt battery works good to fire high impedance injectors for a short period of time. I have used that on individual injectors for a bit of simple DIY cleaning with a can of carb cleaner. 

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress Reader
2/21/20 5:03 p.m.

In reply to Robbie :

Looked around the interwebs for plans and just found a bunch of incomplete code and a couple of youtube vids of completed setups.  I could just run them wide open using the method @fladiver64 suggests, but i'd rather simulate the MS opening times at a few different idle points. IOW, I'm worried that they might flow differently at 20% duty cycle vs 80% duty cycle. Might be overkill for a challenge build but things go pearshaped more quickly under boost.

What is Calvin's handle on here?

Fladiver64
Fladiver64 GRM+ Memberand Reader
2/21/20 8:31 p.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

I think you might be over thinking this. To my knowledge, which can be quite incomplete, injectors are either open or closed. Since there is not an in between, and what you are looking for in a flow test is that they all flow the same rate, not that they necessarily flow a specific rate. Testing at 20% duty cycle, if there is a 10% difference in flow rate, then there is only going to be a 2% change in amount of fluid measured. Measuring flow rate at 100% duty cycle will highlight the differences in injectors, which I think should be more important than the particular flow rate.

Mis matched injectors is what plays hell on tune ups, as long as the injector can support the power levels at something less than 100% duty cycle.

If you already have the system wired for MS there is an injector test mode in tuner studio. This allows you to test pulse width and a specific amount of time, measure the amount of fluid coming out of the injector and then you can calculate flow rates.

MS Injector Test

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE HalfDork
2/22/20 8:50 a.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:

In reply to Robbie :

What is Calvin's handle on here?

"TheV8Kid". His dad is "Wheels444" or something like that.

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress Reader
2/24/20 10:58 a.m.

In reply to Fladiver64 :

You could be right! But what if an injector opens 15% slower than the other three, either due to getting gummed up, or an electronic issue? That symptom would be masked at 100% duty cycle (because it only has to open once, and stay open), less visible at a 80% duty cycle than a 15% duty cycle. If that logic fails, then the question remains-why do all the professional machines, as well as the MSII, test at different duty cycles? Agree with you 100% that it's the relative flow of an injector vs. the rest that is relevant, not the actual amount.

I pinged Calvin (Thanks GirthQuake!), if anybody "sees" him, send him my way!

Preparation for March:

I'm swinging for the fences in March. My "other car" will move to a relative's garage (thanks mom!) and I'll have crusty for a month. 

Paint:

I've freed up enough budget to fix some of the bondo body work and give Crusty a Rustoleum paint job. Relevant links below.

Best overview of materials and process I found: https://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?40341-My-quot-rustoleum-50-roll-on-paint-job-quot

Original blog about Rustoleum on a car: http://www.rickwrench.com/index79master.htm?http://www.rickwrench.com/50dollarpaint.html 

Best match for the original Rio Red: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Stops-Rust-1-Qt-Protective-Enamel-Gloss-Sunrise-Red-Interior-Exterior-Paint-7762502/100140482

Cooling and Injectors:  

Local machine shop will deck the block for $120, hopefully solving my cooling issues. This fits in the budget only if I can get the injectors checked out. May have to buy the MS system, we'll see.

Last year my teamate rushed to bondo and paint Crusty's rear right fender, which was still crumpled despite our frame pulling. Doing better in the concours is a goal for this year, and that means we can't just take the 12...and that meant fixing the fender and painting the rest of Crusty as well. Fender with last year's paint:

Fender after stripping all the old bondo. I bought a harbour freight stud welder and slide hammer to pull as much of the dent as possible.

Bondo going back on. If you've done body work you can see mistakes everywhere in this pic. I should have used a skim coat of bondo to completely cover the lumpy metal-it's easier to make that smooth than it is to feather in multiple areas of lumpy metal.

Pic of the hood to show how bad the paint was. Just shot all the way around the car and every panel had a ding of somesort that had to be filled with bondo. I came to the conclusion that the whole thing had to be painted, and that Rustoleum was my best option because I didn't have a paint booth, gun, compressor, or budget for a real paint job. 

So all the trim, bumpers, weatherstripping, etc came off and I've been laying down coat after coat of Rustoleum, with lots of sanding in between. There are gonna be lots of imperfections in the paint, but the Rustoleum will be more than enough for a race car. I'm thinking white wheels, but we'll see. 

I also scored some rods for $70. The rods are pistons are currently the weakest link in the drivetrain, and really the only thing that is preventing me from turning up the boost. Will post some pics after the trim/bumpers are back on-paint wont' be perfect, but it will be shiny!

 

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/28/20 7:41 a.m.

Paintwork is done-mainly because I'm sick of looking at red paint. Quick notes for those that want to try the "Rustoleum with a roller" paint method. 

 

-Don't do this unless it's for the challenge. In any other scenario I would have done the prep myself and taken it to a shop for the spraying. What I saved on paint I spent on sandpaper and labor.

-Don't worry about dust nibs and other crap that gets in the paint. You'll be doing so much wet-sanding that they don't matter

-Do worry about primer. I thought I could skip this step and paid for it later with extra labor and material. The Rustoleum is thinned out so much that getting enough coverage was my #1 problem

-Do worry about removing the trim, door handles, fenders, weaterstripping. Don't tape it off, don't try to go around it, just remove it. You'll thank me later.

Anyway, here's wonderwall. 

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/28/20 8:37 a.m.

That looks pretty good.  So how much boost are you going to run?

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/28/20 9:19 a.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Thanks! I was running 6 PSI (so maybe 160hp?) last year, and traction was a problem. The rest of the year looks like a time crunch for me so I think I'm going to keep the boost the same and focus on getting the head/block decked and a better wheel/tire package.

If some d16 75mm vitara pistons fell into my lap that could change. The rest of the engine should support between 250-300hp...which would probably make the traction problem a good bit worse =P

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
6/28/20 9:51 a.m.

Just ran through the entire thread from the beginning.  Cool project (it's been a while since I checked in on this).  Car looks awesome in the new paint.  For every day, I think the current wheels in their current color would be good, as the dark color would hide some brake dust and grime.  White wheels would look good in magazine shots, though, with the white adding more pop to the whole package.

Is there a cheap and easy available wheel available in a 6.5" or 7" width that bolts onto the car?  Seems like a 6" wide wheel would leave a lot of the contact patch un-square against the road surface. 

Hope the deck work on the motor fixes the cooling issues. 

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/28/20 1:04 p.m.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

Thanks! The paint photographed better than it is, but is way, way better than last year.

Agree about the magazine shots-white wheels on a red Honda always seemed classic to me. 

There are definitely some wider options available, but may not be in my budget. The original plan was to put some 14" A7s on the existing wheels but it looks like Hoosier quit making them in 14" last year. 

I may try to trade the wheels/tires that are on the car for a set of 15" wheels, or I may just run it again with what is on there. 

If anybody has some 15" 4x100s keep me in mind =)

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
6/28/20 1:36 p.m.

Makes sense to try and sell the wheels and tires you have to try and recoup enough to afford better wheels for the task at hand.

I've thought about going with white wheels on my red Suzuki SX4 which would be like what you're talking about.  The inspiration for that is the Peugeot 106 Rallye, which came with a couple of wheels from the factory like what you're describing;

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/6/20 8:56 a.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

Don't know if you saw this or could use it but here's the link anyway.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/parts-sale/a-few-nos-honda-items-from-decades-past/174477/page1/

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Stampie, has anybody told you that you're like the nicest MF'er on here? 

Crusty came with a good suspension setup, but those blue tokikos are the old-school-cool suspension setup for the CRX. If this was anything other than the challenge I'd jump on it.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/8/20 8:39 a.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) :

I'm sure I've been called a MF'er here but not sure the word nicest was in front of it.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/8/20 10:31 a.m.

that paint came out awesome. GREAT work. 

solfly
solfly HalfDork
7/9/20 6:46 p.m.

Check the routing of the small coolant hoses on the back of the engine for the overheating issue. When reassembling my shoe I had a non Honda helper and he routed them wrong and the car was overheating.

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
11/25/20 1:14 p.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks! It's better than it was but very much a 20' job.

In reply to solfly :

I'll take a look at it. Heater is gone and the hose is looped so there's not much going on behind the engine right now. The one shiny piston and weird AFR readings when warm make me think the block needs to be decked.

Wheels and Tires!

I picked up a set of 15x7 35et wheels for 50$ and ordered a set of used 225/45/15 Hoosier A7s from John Berget. They're mounted (heavier than the 14" HX rims!) and are in storage for now. There's gonna be some serious fender rolling to fit the rears and probably fender flares on the front to make these things fit. 

Also picked up some steel tubing to see if I can weld a waste gate fitting. The fitting and the downpipe are taking up $63 of budget and I'll need every penny if I want to get the engine rebuilt the way I hope to. 

Catch22
Catch22 New Reader
11/25/20 7:59 p.m.

In my experience with 15 x 8 +35 wheels and 245-45-15 BFG Rival 1.5's on a CRX, civic hatch and wagon, it will be closer to fitting than you think!  With the suspension at full droop, it looks like there is no way it will fit!  But with an appropriate amount of negative camber front and rear, you should be really close to fitting.  

The Rival 1.5's have a 8.9" section width and the A7's have a 9.3" section width.   So you will be a little under a quarter inch wider both inside edge and outside edges.  So by rolling plus maybe a slight pull to the front fenders plus cutting off the rear fender lips, you will be surprised how close to clear you will be.  Did you check the clearance of the rear tire to the trailing arm while they were installed?  That and the  inner wheel well in the front at full lock will be really close as well.

Thanks for the update.  I wish you continued success in your build.

Let me know if you are searching for any CRX parts!

Jason

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
11/25/20 9:28 p.m.

In reply to Catch22 :

Thanks for the info! I didn't really mount the wheels for that pic-they're mostly just sitting on the studs-so not sure about the trailing arms. The arms are also swapped, along with the disk brakes, from an integra of that generation. 

My budget is maxed out but I have lots of stuff to trade! HX wheels w/ good Falken Azenis, Neuspeed front sway bar, rear sway bar (possibly Innovative?), catalytic converter, HVAC box from dash, AC lines, compressor, passenger's turn signal and bumper lights (OE, Stanley), OE style aftermarket muffler in box, spare tire, intake manifold from the d15b6. If anything looks interesting shoot me a DM!

 The big parts that I'm looking for right now are vitara pistons with rings, driver's door sash, and a 4 bar map sensor. I really need to make a FS/FT post on the forum.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/25/20 9:38 p.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) :

Is there a junkyard map sensor I could grab?

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
11/30/20 8:19 a.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Good idea-possibly! I'll do some research and let you know (or just pull it myself).

New (Old) turbo setup.

I bought the current new so it's $569 in our budget, making it the most expensive item by far. Last weekend I drove across the #$%## state to pick up a pretty complete kit for $300. I'll need to buy/trade for some odds-n-ends, but it feels great to pull $200+ back out of the budget. Sweet!

Compression Ratios and Turbos

Need help with compression ratios. I have room in the budget for a piston/rod combination that will give me 7.3:1 CR (Stock is 9.1). Every thread I've read says that's too low and I'll never make power below 3-4k when the turbo kicks in. At the same time, everything I've read from technical articles and  manufacturers (JE Piston like below) says that you only lose 3-4% power for each full point of compression. It looks like I'd be losing 8% of my power before the turbo begins to spool...for a race car this just doesn't seem like a big deal. Any thoughts from the hivemind?

JE Pistons article citing 3-4% power loss for each full point of lower compression: https://www.jepistons.com/blog/compression-ratio-theory-and-how-to-calculate-in-powersports

Used Turbo Kit. Oil pan had impact damage, everything else looks good. 

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