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yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
4/16/19 9:43 a.m.
84FSP said:

I thought Yudipit had an XJR that was bought well enough to challenge it.  Not sure if he ever did or not.  I would go with SBC swapped older generation or modded XJR

 

I have a challenge eligible XJR but I'm taking a Mercedes S600 this year. 

Stampie
Stampie PowerDork
4/16/19 9:44 a.m.
Robbie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

... twin turbo e85 v12 ... I think the v12 might be the wrong direction 

How the berk could anything be wrong with a twin turbo e85 V12?

FuzzWuzzy
FuzzWuzzy Reader
4/16/19 9:46 a.m.

Are T3s even big enough to do anything to a V12?

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/16/19 9:47 a.m.
Stampie said:
Robbie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

... twin turbo e85 v12 ... I think the v12 might be the wrong direction 

How the berk could anything be wrong with a twin turbo e85 V12?

Two turbos that are not there?  That seems like a pretty serious oversight.

Robbie
Robbie UltimaDork
4/16/19 9:54 a.m.
FuzzWuzzy said:

Are T3s even big enough to do anything to a V12?

Sure, you just need 4 of them. One for each exhaust manifold.

Stampie
Stampie PowerDork
4/16/19 10:01 a.m.

In reply to Robbie :

Not twins but y'all build it I'll Stampie rule this turbo at $200 budget hit.  It should be big enough to feed anything.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
4/16/19 10:13 a.m.

In reply to Robbie :

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I’m never going to claim the XJS is near an XKE which it replaced. But it has grown on me and most Jaguar fans.  

To me really ugly cars are like the MK10 sedan or the full sized square cars that replaced the early XJ12 or 6 introduced in the 1970’s. 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
4/16/19 10:18 a.m.
FuzzWuzzy said:

Are T3s even big enough to do anything to a V12?

I made near to 500 hp on an early XJS with a pair of T2’s out of a junkyard Saabs. It still shows up every once in a while at the local drive in  doing burn outs. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
4/16/19 10:21 a.m.
Robbie said:
FuzzWuzzy said:

Are T3s even big enough to do anything to a V12?

Sure, you just need 4 of them. One for each exhaust manifold.

Depends on how much boost you want.  2 is less expensive than 4.  I’m content around 6-8 pounds because I don’t have enough experience with turbo’s to know what the upper limits are.  

The V12 starts at 242 - 318 net horsepower with only 7.8-1 pistons  and compression goes up to 11 & 1/2-1  with stops at 9.0-1,  10.0 - 1, 11.0 - 1  And those power figures are limited by pollution requirements and fuel availability.   Increase fuel delivery and use higher octane  fuel Those two changes alone should kick power up by a serious amount.  

 

 

The pieces are there to make serious power but at some point other parts start to fail. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
4/16/19 10:41 a.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Have you seen how fast Andrew's cars have been doing the drag race at the Challenge???  

It's not an opinion, it is fact- and has happened for at most of the Challenges since 2004.  

I challenge you to make a sub 11 second Jag on a challenge budget.  A sub 11 sec Chevy motor car has been done multiple times, which tells me they are making much more power than you think.

Not by me, but it's been there, done that.  

Let me clarify what I believe you are saying. Please correct me if I have it wrong.  

No Jaguar V12 can ever get to a sub 11 second quarter mile?  Yet somehow a Chevy V8 can make a 4600 pound Jaguar do it in less than 11 seconds on a Challenge budget.  

The U tube video showing a stock cheap thrashed XJS V12 beating new Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette etc. in a drag race with nothing more than a 150 hp shot of nitrous. 

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
4/16/19 10:48 a.m.

Why'd y'all get Frenchy going. Im tired of looking at Jag threads being filled with his redundancy. 

Stampie
Stampie PowerDork
4/16/19 10:51 a.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Sometimes it's fun to poke a bear and run. 

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy UberDork
4/16/19 11:02 a.m.

In reply to yupididit & Stampie :

I LOL'd so loud, the guy next to me asked what was so funny.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/16/19 11:06 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Build it.  

You claimed that there was a power limit in the GM engine, one that made the V12 a better choice.  I'm pointing out that your limit is false, as it's been well exceeded for 15 years of Challenges.

You also seem to assume that make a car lighter is not possible.  Not sure why,  And I'm seeing curb weights from 3800-4200lb, which should be capable of going down for a challenge car.  

Stll, you think it's that great- build it.  See where it comes out. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
4/16/19 11:16 a.m.
Robbie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I want to build a Jaguar challenge car with you. Seriously. Like I would absolutely love to build this twin turbo e85 v12.

But honestly I think the v12 might be the wrong direction (for challenge purposes) Putting that $1500 wrecked xjr into a stripped $500 xjs, however...

If only the xjs wasn't so darn ugly. It's like the only ugly jag too.

I’d like that too! Yet  I want to build a car that can be used for more than one event. 

I prefer wheel to wheel so if I build an XJS  I’d build it to conform to SCCA regulations which I’m sure would boost the cost well over Challenge money.  Maybe I could build it and haul it to Florida first. Then bring it into  compliance with SCCA  regs.? 

The other car I intend to build is my MGuar. MG TD  powered by a supercharged V12 with Jaguar suspension and XKE patterned frame . That would be more usable at a much lower cost.  Car event/shows, autocross,  maybe a little drag racing.

On the other hand I want to come screaming at my top speed into turn 5 at Elkhart Lake with the car completely  sideways a few more times in my life. 

In the past it’s taken me about 3500 hours to build a car to my standards. However I am slowing down. That work  I used to do all day long and well into the night, now has to done in 20 minute segments with rest between.   I have 90+% of what either will take material wise. But once I start I shouldn’t bother saving the other.  

 

Robbie
Robbie UltimaDork
4/16/19 11:26 a.m.

So let's talk about say a v12 in a 1985 xjs. For example. It should be between 10.1-12.5-1 compression according to Wikipedia and power was rated at 262 HP.

What smog stuff needs to be removed? Airpumps? High flow cats? Etc.

How would you increase the fuel most cheaply? Bigger injectors? Higher pressure regulator? E85?

Like, say you had $200 and you couldn't dissasemble the bottom end or add turbos but you could go as far as to take the heads off for example, what kinda power could be made and what would be the recipe?

Asking for "a friend"

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
4/16/19 12:18 p.m.
MRobbie said:

So let's talk about say a v12 in a 1985 xjs. For example. It should be between 10.1-12.5-1 compression according to Wikipedia and power was rated at 262 HP.

What smog stuff needs to be removed? Airpumps? High flow cats? Etc.

How would you increase the fuel most cheaply? Bigger injectors? Higher pressure regulator? E85?

Like, say you had $200 and you couldn't dissasemble the bottom end or add turbos but you could go as far as to take the heads off for example, what kinda power could be made and what would be the recipe?

Asking for "a friend"

i should respond with how far does he want to go?  All out racing or more would be nice?  

Removing  smog equipment and increasing the timing  to take advantage of better fuel will put about 50 net horsepower there. But fuel mileage will be terrible.  

All out race 650 horsepower is possible and has been done.  In fact the last Listers were over 750 horsepower. That was with French pump grade gasoline 

 

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
4/16/19 12:53 p.m.
frenchyd said:

Let me clarify what I believe you are saying. Please correct me if I have it wrong.  

No Jaguar V12 can ever get to a sub 11 second quarter mile?  Yet somehow a Chevy V8 can make a 4600 pound Jaguar do it in less than 11 seconds on a Challenge budget.  

The U tube video showing a stock cheap thrashed XJS V12 beating new Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette etc. in a drag race with nothing more than a 150 hp shot of nitrous. 

The question is not whether it can be done. It is whether it can be done on a challenge budget. The Nelsons have shown time and time again that they can. Where's the Jaguar powered $2000 sub-11 drag racer? I hear a lot of "chevy bad" from you but no proof, when proof has been provided that it's good, 14 times over.

The Chevy powered Jag posted earlier starts at $475. A few hundred more bucks and it would be putting out 300+hp. A few dozen hours with weight removal and it would be much lighter. Good formula.

You've been talking about your MGuar for going on 10 years now. A long dream, we all have those, but don't diss other people's dreams because you think yours is so great.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
4/16/19 1:16 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Wasn't you banned under the mguar name in this forum? Lol

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
4/16/19 2:13 p.m.

I think the XJ-S is rather pretty, especially the early ones.  Not XJ-C pretty but still nice to look at.  It's unfortunate that they're so heavy but they're probably also quieter and nicer riding for it.

Robbie
Robbie UltimaDork
4/16/19 2:30 p.m.

So the 81+ 5.3 v12 isn't a great starting point it sounds like? Is the block any better than the early one? Or is it better to just wait to find an earlier v12 to avoid having to rebuild the thing with different pistons and heads?

 

Stampie
Stampie PowerDork
4/16/19 3:01 p.m.

Reading his recipe I don't think he understands the Challenge. The Challenge isn't finding that perfect year engine with the perfect mix of parts to do the perfect build. You do that and you'll end up with 75% of the perfect parts you need or a blown budget or both.  The Challenge means you crank up the boost another 3psi instead of spending 100 hours porting the heads. At least that's my 2 cents. Now I'll go back and sit in the corner. 

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy UberDork
4/16/19 3:08 p.m.
Stampie said:

Reading his recipe I don't think he understands the Challenge. The Challenge isn't finding that perfect year engine with the perfect mix of parts to do the perfect build. You do that and you'll end up with 75% of the perfect parts you need or a blown budget or both.  The Challenge means you crank up the boost another 3psi instead of spending 100 hours porting the heads. At least that's my 2 cents. Now I'll go back and sit in the corner. 

Poking the bear again I see.

 

I for one, really hope he actually comes thru and builds the darn thing.  Prove everyone wrong.

Stampie
Stampie PowerDork
4/16/19 3:10 p.m.

In reply to Indy-Guy :

I'd love to see a twin turbo V12 at the Challenge. 

stroker
stroker UltraDork
4/16/19 3:11 p.m.

I have a mental image of dueling XJ6's at the Challenge, one with a SBC and the other with a Jag 6.  

 

it could happen...   cheeky

 

 

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