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Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
11/2/20 8:48 p.m.
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) said:

Not challenge related, but with brand new 4 cylinder factory cars capable of running 13.9 off of the showroom floor and showroom V8s running in the 12s, I'm wondering how drag strips handle that sort of timing with no roll cage.
 

Unaltered (purposefully vague NHRA word meaning all intact factory safety systems) 2008 and newer fixed-roof cars are allowed to go 9.99 without roll bars but they mean unaltered, lift out your foam rear seat base and prepare for shouting tech guy. 

 

Rule change thoughts:

Free GRM stickers... sure why not whatever we can do for the magazine and sponsors is good news. 

Keeping quiet and order under the pavilion... YES PLEASE. I'll suggest again setting aside space for the cars being judged, I don't want to stick anybody out in the sun or make anyone feel excluded but if you choose to sit out the drags it would be frowned upon to park your car in the staging lanes this is the same thing, those of us who are going to make a presentation should have the space to open the car up fully and walk the judges around. 

 

Roll bars... My first observation is the people who need them don't complain and vise versa. My personal feeling is if you need a roll bar in your otherwise stock Miata to feel comfortable racing it whatever, budget-neutral stuff that will never ever pass NHRA tech doesn't really cause a problem. The crx chassis is going to be about $180 in material and vastly exceeds NHRA specs for the anticipated 1/4mi. This is scouring swap meets, facebook, bugging my Alro rep, and generally being annoying to every metal worker I know you gotta do what you gotta do. It's not just a building competition. 

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/3/20 7:24 a.m.

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Pretty to the point there.  Those who actually need roll protection aren't the ones complaining about it.  
 

also fmv questions are getting out of hand around here.  "Oh hey I didn't get a receipt for this part i needed because it was 1/4 of my budget let's see if i can get 5 people to agree it could be worth $50"

 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/3/20 7:52 a.m.

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

I agree. FMV has become a joke. 
 

 

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
11/3/20 8:02 a.m.

I agree a lot of the FMV stuff is a bit of a cop-out. Part of the Challenge is the actual hard work involved with selling/buying things, such as dealing with flaky fools and haggling with tire-kickers to make the sale.

I'm about to expend a ridiculous amount of effort to carefully remove, clean, photograph, and list a bunch of Toyota Avalon parts on eBay. Then I'll have to expend more effort to package and ship them. In the end, I might net $200 in the budget after I account for shipping costs, if I'm lucky. 

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman SuperDork
11/3/20 8:23 a.m.
maschinenbau (I live here) said:

I agree a lot of the FMV stuff is a bit of a cop-out. Part of the Challenge is the actual hard work involved with selling/buying things, such as dealing with flaky fools and haggling with tire-kickers to make the sale.

One of the ideas I like behind FMV is not ending up with 30 sets of wheels because I keep finding them cheaper each year. I already have 4 sets of Mustang wheels, the most recent costing $50. If I can find matching adds to lower my FMV instead of stock piling wheels that suits my mental stability. I have nearly unlimited room, but I still fear having 60 wheels again.

Some parts are more reasonable to FMV than others, every engine, transmission and car is different in my opinion.  

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
11/3/20 8:34 a.m.

In reply to Andy Neuman :

I still have 3 full sets of the exact same 15x8 Jeep wheels for my 2019 Challenge car. I think in the stock trading world, that's called "averaging down" laugh 

Overall, I think it still falls under the "don't be dick" rule and we as a community are also empowered to respond to some FMV requests with "what did you pay" or "prove it's worth by selling it"

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/3/20 8:34 a.m.

Patrick and SV - can you point me to these threads you're referencing? I think I can count like 10 or less threads asking for FMV backup in the last 3-4 months? That doesn't seem like a lot, especially because most of those threads have been about parts that really have little impact. I guess, if you could provide examples I may be able to agree. 

I did use FMV on my budget sheet this year. 4 different places - 2 were screenshots of metal sales websites when I used metal that was in my garage but really couldn't be counted as scrap (so basically I paid 'new' prices). They were probably the places I actually bought the metal however long ago, but I didn't have receipt. One was based on a post by Tom himself that you can FMV roll cage tubing at $3/ft, one was me re-using a part that came off of a different challenge car, but I used the exact price that the original challenger paid for the part (and didn't even use all of it), and then one item was me FMVing $40 of 'misc' shop type stuff, random hardware, half cans of spray paint, zip ties, scrap brackets, etc. 

It seems to me that FMV is pretty straight-forward and for the most part ISN'T being abused. 

Now, if you were to propose that one challenger selling something to another can really walk the line of an 'inside deal', then I would be in agreement. I think we all need to keep each other more honest there. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/3/20 8:41 a.m.

I reference to the above, I know I have sold challenge cars AT the challenge, and though I didn't realize it at the time, folks have come to me later and said "I had no idea you were selling! Wish I had known" - and they were ALSO at the same challenge. 

There are at least two cars I would have been very interested in buying (especially at the prices I've heard was the sale price) that also changed hands at challenges that I was in attendance. And I didn't know the cars were being sold until after the sales were complete. 

Those are the transactions that could really get a bit sticky. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/3/20 8:43 a.m.
maschinenbau (I live here) said:

In reply to Andy Neuman :

I still have 3 full sets of the exact same 15x8 Jeep wheels for my 2019 Challenge car. I think in the stock trading world, that's called "averaging down" laugh 

Overall, I think it still falls under the "don't be dick" rule and we as a community are also empowered to respond to some FMV requests with "what did you pay" or "prove it's worth by selling it"

I still have one saab intercooler because I kept finding them cheaper and cheaper - I think I was up to 3 or 4 before I had to say enough! Anyone need an intercooler?

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/3/20 10:44 a.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

I'm gonna refrain from pointing at specific transactions. It's not my job to finger point. 
 

There is a general misunderstanding of the use and purpose of FMV. 

Here's a good example of the misunderstanding:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/2000-challenge/need-an-fmv-of-free-on-this-seat/177971/page1/

The price was free.  It shouldn't have to be validated by an agreement on FMV.

"Fair market value" has become a vote among cheapskates.  It's not what the item would sell for in the open market.  It's what cheapskates (like me) agree on.  I think that devalues the event (and gives fodder to the people who say "THAT can't be built for $2K". They are kinda right.

But it's the way the event functions, and I am happy to play along.

 

nocones
nocones UltraDork
11/4/20 10:17 a.m.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

One was based on a post by Tom himself that you can FMV roll cage tubing at $3/ft

 

Wait..  what?

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/4/20 10:40 a.m.
nocones said:
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

One was based on a post by Tom himself that you can FMV roll cage tubing at $3/ft

 

Wait..  what?

I guess I shorted that just a hair in the post above. This is the thread I used to quote 1.75x.120 erw at $3.29/ft. I didn't have a receipt for the 6ft that I used from my 'shop stash', and I budgeted $19.74 FMV.  

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/2000-challenge/roll-bar-budget-question/163630/page1/

If that seems like I abused the rules let me know. 

Edit: the rest of the roll bar came from a 'kit' that I bought on CL from a guy who had bought the kit many years ago from Jegs or simlar and never installed. So I only needed a few more feet to augment my roll bar. the kits only plan for one front support, but I built my car with one on each side. 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
11/4/20 1:30 p.m.

FMV needs to be realized that it's not how cheap you can find something if you happen upon it in a yard. But that it's a price that it would sell for, without a page and a half of people saying I'm next if this falls through the first person. At that price point it's not FMV. It's a sweetheart of a deal and a steal, which are out there to be had, but that's what needs to be documented. 

If it wouldn't pollute the classifieds. I would say a bogey ad should be put up with a price and photos of the item in question, and that if it lines up with three or four people saying I'm next if the first person doesn't come through. Then the evaluation given in the advertising price is too low. Unless the person actually sells it to someone else at that price and doesn't purchase it back from that person. I don't want the rules to get that convoluted. but buying something and stashing it in the garage or the basement for 5 to 10 years and then wheeling it out when you forgot how much you paid for it, doesn't make it junkyard value. I have 4 superchargers in my basement, a pair of m62's and m90 and a Lysolm off of millenia s, The m90 and one of the m62's I paid $100 for, The other m62 I paid $175 for, The Lysolm I paid $350 for. That doesn't mean either m62 can be valued at $100. For the lysosome can be valued at 100 or 175 because I have another supercharger that was priced at that price point. it doesn't mean that it can be valued at what I told my ex-wife that I paid for it. If I didn't recall what I honestly paid for the lysolm and I listed on here for 250 and there was interest but no biters. Then 250 would probably be on the mark. But that's not the case, as I know what was paid. It also doesn't mean that I can pick a supercharger up at the junkyard for $83, making that the value. Y'all are going to ruin the junkyard FMV. We're going to have to start looking up book time on removing some of these parts off of these cars, placing that to minimum wage, and adding that to the junkyard price. which shouldn't be the case cuz a lot of people on here legitimately use junk yards to source parts and make awesome scores because they hunt. but that hunting searching goes outside of your garage in basement based off of what you already have laying around at your convenience. 

 

all right I'm off my soapbox and going to the junkyard as there's a new MX3 in there that might have decent seats and shifter bushings, but I won't know until I get there. 

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
11/4/20 2:36 p.m.

I've made the argument that FMV should be totally dropped by I very much doubt that would happen especially in a year GRM doesn't want to make major rules changes. 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
11/4/20 2:59 p.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

GRM has a partnership with eBay who sponsors the challenge. If eBay were to bring up a catalog of new and used parts and what they've recently sold for for various platforms, That would be a fantastic benchmark for fair market value, and could be what's utilized instead of junkyard prices, unless the person using the parts has a receipt from the junkyard. 

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
11/4/20 8:05 p.m.

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

You can do this anytime by setting eBay search filters to "used" and "completed listings only". I do this to determine which parts are worth selling when parting out a donor car for recoup.

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/9/20 6:59 a.m.

Hardship replacement rulings:

 

"I blew up my engine/trans/diff/etc the week before the event testing and replaced it with this obviously better more expensive one to make the show and tom gave me a hardship waiver"

 

this does not carry over to the future, correct?  IE you get a pass this year but fix your budget and documentation if you come back.  
 

One reason i ask is i aim to do lots of testing this coming summer and there's potential for breakage at the power levels we're planning 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/9/20 10:28 a.m.
Patrick (Forum Supporter) said:

Hardship replacement rulings:

 

"I blew up my engine/trans/diff/etc the week before the event testing and replaced it with this obviously better more expensive one to make the show and tom gave me a hardship waiver"

 

this does not carry over to the future, correct?  IE you get a pass this year but fix your budget and documentation if you come back.  
 

One reason i ask is i aim to do lots of testing this coming summer and there's potential for breakage at the power levels we're planning 

If obviously better and more expensive engine puts you over $2000, I'd expect you would be relegated to Exhibition. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
11/9/20 12:29 p.m.

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

*Tom doesn't give hardship waivers. He advises on what arguments somebody could make re: the rulebook. Anything protested under the wear and tear rule goes to a jury of competitors, not the staff. It's all detailed in the rule. Any time I give out a waiver (sticker placement exemption, for example) I have the competitor print my email and include it in their build book.

That said, I'll be adding clarification preventing what you're referencing in the future.

 

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/9/20 12:52 p.m.

Gotcha.  

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
11/10/20 11:35 a.m.

Class rule proposal: 

For a vehicle that has been previously challenged (physical vehicle, not year/make/model) the previous entry cost can be awarded as recoup towards budget and the entry fee recoup can allow the budget to surpass $2000.

This is transferable with the vehicle, i.e. if Stampie sells a Nissan that he's challenged to Patrick, Patrick gets the additional $225 (or whatever the entry cost was in the year Stampie campaigned the vehicle) towards the budget of said Nissan. 

Call it master class or something along those lines. 

barefootskater (Shaun)
barefootskater (Shaun) UberDork
11/11/20 6:55 p.m.

What about something regarding depreciation. What if a fellow buys a $5000 car, drives it for 5-7 years at which point it may only be worth $1500. I think that vehicle should be eligible, especially if it remains mostly stock. I may be in the minority. Thoughts?

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
11/15/20 8:25 a.m.

I just noticed that The Burchett Rule doesn't include the brake booster.  Is that intentional?  Oh yeah Berk Joe.

nocones
nocones UltraDork
11/17/20 2:19 p.m.

Since this has devolved into a bit of a challenge rules question thread...

The Burchett Rule question for clarification.  

My Car is a mutt made of many different car parts.  There are no Brake lines available for a 1968 Subaru 360, I have the rubber brake lines for the WRX and Imprezza Front brakes that I am going to use but they are old and janky.  I'm planning to use the Burchett rule to ensure that my stoppy bits are in good shape.  That's pretty straight forward for the calipers/rotors.  Master Cylinders I know I'm going to have to do in budget unless I use the Brighton MC.  That is fine. 

But what of the brake lines for the rest of the car.  What I would like to do is use the same Jegs Universal line set that I used for the MG.  It's not an insane amount to carry on the budget @ $89, however It seems that the Barchette rule would encourage/allow me to buy and produce a cobled together mess of brand new Impreza brake lines modified or re-formed to fit my application.   What I'm wondering is if the Hardlines, and Braided Brake lines would be / could be covered under this rule?  I am attempting to duplicate the stock impreza brake system (adjusted for my challenger) in the safest way possible. 

I understand if the view is that "you're building a tube frame car you take your budget penalties for things others don't have to consider and you like it."   But thought I'd see what everyone thinks.  

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
11/17/20 2:44 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

I'm following along on this one,too. My build has the same issue as you have.

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