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Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
11/17/20 3:25 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

Quoting The Burchett Rule:

Brake friction materials, lines, calipers, master cylinders, rotors and drums may be replaced with fresh ones that are duplicates or stock replacements without increasing or decreasing the budget. “Duplicate” is defined as having the same listed application in a major parts catalog as the part being replaced. Stock replacement is defined as having the Challenge car’s year, make, model, and trim listed as an application in a major parts catalog, or, if non-OEM front and/or rear subframes/axles/hubs/knuckles are used, the year, make, model, and trim of the donor vehicle listed as an application in a major parts catalog. This rule does allow adding stock replacement brake parts to a car that did not come with any at the time of sale. The purpose of this rule is to allow for safe brake components, not to allow for budget shenanigans. Original brake parts cannot be sold for recoup and then re-bought without budget impact to take advantage of this allowance

Since "lines" are listed then I think you would be fine using OEM type replacement lines from your donor vehicle.  If that's a roll of same size line and you make your own then it's still OEM equivalent.  But that list does not include the booster which I was wondering about.

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/17/20 3:28 p.m.

Don't need power brakes to function and stop

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
11/17/20 3:29 p.m.

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

But could make them safer and I'm all about being safe with OEM equipment.

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) Dork
11/17/20 4:33 p.m.

I read the Burchett rule, as a whole, as an attempt to ensure that wear items are not overlooked due to budget constraints. I do not read "lines" as expressly including hard line since hard line is not generally a wear item(rust belt notwithstanding), but maybe my interpretation is too strict.... In the specific cases at hand(nocones, Warren), you have knowingly chosen to toss out the original structure the hard lines were attached to. Even my (soon to be)shortened production framerails shouldn't get a budget exemption for new hard lines IMO.

Replace your crusty, dry rotted OE rubber flex hoses with exact replacements = exempt
Upgrade to braided SS = not exempt

Replace a rusty section of hard line with like material = exempt in the spirit of safety
Re-plumb the entire system with NiCopp = not exempt

 

The Jegs universal brake line kit is an interesting nugget of info I am squirreling away. Thanks for that

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
11/17/20 4:47 p.m.

Wait, you all have working brake boosters?!

I'll update the Burchett rule to include brake boosters. I realllllllly want you all to not crash into me/each other/other people. Stampie's interpretation of the Burchett rule in the post above is correct.

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/17/20 4:53 p.m.

In reply to gumby (Forum Supporter) :

personally, don't really mind if someone replumbs the whole car in nicopp.  It's cheap, and i would prefer they do that than try and cobble together sections of used stuff to save $30 in budget room and then run into a course worker or me in the next lane.  

 

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) Dork
11/17/20 4:57 p.m.

Duly noted

nocones
nocones UltraDork
11/17/20 5:10 p.m.

In reply to gumby (Forum Supporter) :

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/63095/10002/-1

This is the exact one I bought for the MG.  I had no issues bending or flaring the lines.  Fitings were of acceptable quality and everything seemed to be machined well.  The flex lines are NOT DOT approved though if that's important to you application.

 

 

I see while typing this a ruling has been reached.  

 

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
11/17/20 5:16 p.m.

Because all the cool kids are linking these days.

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/63095/10002/-1

Indy "Nub" Guy
Indy "Nub" Guy PowerDork
11/17/20 6:17 p.m.

My Challenge car came stock with a single circuit brake system / master cylinder.  In the spirit of safety, can a dual circuit master cylinder be swapped in with out the budget hit?  In 2019 I witnessed Michael Duster b13 have a line let go on his Miata while on the autocross course.  He accidentally knicked it during fabrication.  I don't want to enter a car that still has single circuit brakes.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
11/17/20 6:21 p.m.

In reply to Indy "Nub" Guy :

My argument on that would be that the TR4 shared front and rear hubs with the TR6.  I'd think it's fair to say that at least one if not all of those hubs have been replaced since new 50ish years ago.  So using this part of the rule:

or, if non-OEM front and/or rear subframes/axles/hubs/knuckles are used, the year, make, model, and trim of the donor vehicle listed as an application in a major parts catalog

I would think that allows you to use the TR6 dual circuit master cylinder.  Plus it's like safe and all.

Indy "Nub" Guy
Indy "Nub" Guy PowerDork
11/17/20 6:51 p.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Got it. Thanks yes

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
11/17/20 8:24 p.m.

I think the Burchett rule reads pretty clearly, with key phrase "may be replaced". How can you replace what your purchased car didn't come with? If you buy a car with no brakes, I don't think the Burchett rule applies and those parts must go in budget. You can buy super crappy used brakes, then replace those for free with new equivalent ones. If your purchase came with rusted-to-oblivion brake lines, you should be able to replace with OEM quality generic lines for free.

For example: I tried to use the Infiniti brake booster in Datsaniti because I already had it. It didn't fit, so I bought a junkyard Miata booster. I counted it in my budget, because when I bought my Infiniti, it didn't have a Miata booster. 

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
11/17/20 9:14 p.m.
maschinenbau (I live here) said:

I think the Burchett rule reads pretty clearly, with key phrase "may be replaced". How can you replace what your purchased car didn't come with? If you buy a car with no brakes, I don't think the Burchett rule applies

I think you missed this part of the rule:

This rule does allow adding stock replacement brake parts to a car that did not come with any at the time of sale.

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
11/17/20 9:21 p.m.

Well, there it is! That means my Miata booster still counts in the budget, because it wasn't stock to the Infiniti. But, say, a Subaru 360 could get OEM equivalent lines for free even if it was just a shell.

 

nocones
nocones UltraDork
11/17/20 9:49 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau (I live here) :

Who would ever bring one of those to the challenge??

Catch22
Catch22 New Reader
11/18/20 11:26 a.m.
maschinenbau (I live here) said:

I think the Burchett rule reads pretty clearly, with key phrase "may be replaced". How can you replace what your purchased car didn't come with? If you buy a car with no brakes, I don't think the Burchett rule applies and those parts must go in budget. You can buy super crappy used brakes, then replace those for free with new equivalent ones. If your purchase came with rusted-to-oblivion brake lines, you should be able to replace with OEM quality generic lines for free.

For example: I tried to use the Infiniti brake booster in Datsaniti because I already had it. It didn't fit, so I bought a junkyard Miata booster. I counted it in my budget, because when I bought my Infiniti, it didn't have a Miata booster. 

My example is similar to maschinenbau's listed above and I believe this is the correct use/view of the rule.  I used Accord wagon calipers and Mini Cooper rotors on my Challenge CRX this year. I purchased the calipers and rotors from the junkyard.  I found a set of stainless braided front brake lines on a 97 Civic 4dr in the junkyard as well.  I used the junkyard purchase prices in my budget and ended up purchasing new calipers and rotors from RockAuto and sent the junkyard units in for the cores.  I used the junkyard sourced front brake lines as is, after a close visual inspection, on the car for the event.  I did also use a junkyard Integra booster and master on the CRX, to get the proper size master to match the front calipers.  I used the junkyard purchase prices in my budget here as well.  The integra master had one fitting that is the same size as the CRX line, a slight bend and it was done.  But it also has one that is a larger fitting, but same size tubing, so I used a compression union to connect the CRX line to the Integra line and included that union in the budget as well.  Luckily there were no brake lines that needed replaced on this car, so I did have to cross that bridge!

I do really enjoy these discussions!  I know they help me and others!

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
11/18/20 11:47 a.m.

In reply to Catch22 :

The way I read your post you did it correct.  

APEowner
APEowner Dork
11/18/20 12:12 p.m.
Catch22 said:
... so I used a compression union to connect the CRX line to the Integra line and included that union in the budget as well...

 

I don't normally weigh in on the challenge budget rule and value threads since I've never been competitor (although I want to someday) but this caught my eye.  Please don't use compression unions in brake lines!  They're not designed for the pressures.

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