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Catch22
Catch22 New Reader
11/5/20 9:54 p.m.

Hello all, I hope you are all doing well!  It was really good to see some familiar faces at this years $2000 Challenge.  It was my second appearance, 2007 was the other time.  This year I brought Pearl, the 88 CRX with the K swap.

I'm actually old to this forum, before it's revamp, or crash, I forget what went down.  I used to post under the same screen name back in the early 2000's.  But just recently signed back in and I'm starting from scratch again!

Thank you all in advance for your time on the questions and real world scenarios that pop up in my parts wrangling for the challenge builds!

Last year I emailed Tom with many long winded questions, sorry again Tom!  Tom was awesome, which comes as no surprise for those found in here!  Thank you again Tom for your time and answers on those topics!  He, along with the answers, suggested that I ask my questions to the other experts on this forum.  So for the new Challenge build and the budget questions that arise along the way, I'm going to run them by y'all on here!  Lucky you!

Also...thanks in advance!  It has become apparent that it is nigh impossible for me to write out short winded questions!

So onto it...

First I'll go over a question that Tom answered last year and then I'll move on to the current take off of that specific question.

I purchased engine #1 Honda K24 and engine #2 Honda K24 from the same junkyard franchise, on different dates, for the same monies.  Can I swap/self trade parts for parts and have that be budget neutral?  Intake manifold for intake manifold, and cams for cams etc?  Tom stated that in this scenario the swap of the part would be budget neutral.

This made sense to me, even though I ran out of time and didn't make use of this option for 2020.

If both of these engines were in the yard at the same time I would have swapped them before paying up front.  This is my normal modus operandi, when possible!

 

So onto the current?

On a 50% off weekend, from the same junkyard Franchise,  I was able to pick up engine #3, you don't have to tell me...I know I have a problem!

Tonights Question!

Even though it is another Honda K24, does this still allow for the interchange of part for part like before, with the engines being purchased at different prices?

If no longer a budget neutral option, could I then calculate the engine as a parts lot and calculate out its components individual values?  Then add the difference in value of a part from engine #1 or #2 to the budget, if swapped into/onto engine #3?

That's enough for now.

Thanks again for your input!

Jason

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/5/20 10:02 p.m.

Since Tom has already ruled, it seems it would be budget neutral IF you used the more expensive price.

I do think it's kinda a weird precedent.  If you could find 500 K24's, could you take all the best parts from each of them and remain budget neutral?

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
11/5/20 10:21 p.m.

 

Edited: I explained waaaay better in a post on page two. Go read that.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
11/5/20 10:22 p.m.

Yes, an engine could be treated as a heterogeneous parts lot. I don't think there's anything in the rules that defines the minimum size of a parts lot. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa SuperDork
11/5/20 10:26 p.m.

Would you still need to factor in gaskets?  I know that you can change like-for-like if there is a problem with the car or engine with no budget hit (like if the alternator craps out) but this doesn't sound like that is what is going on here.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/5/20 11:03 p.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

More important is form a gasket a liquid and therefore budget exempt?

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/5/20 11:10 p.m.
Stampie (FS) said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

More important is form a gasket a liquid and therefore budget exempt?

Haha I budgeted threadlocker but should've thought about that!

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
11/5/20 11:26 p.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

I'm often impressed with the things you think of.

03Panther
03Panther Dork
11/5/20 11:27 p.m.

Good thing I won't ever have anything there fast enough to be competitive, 'cause MY mind can't even think of some of those details!

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/6/20 5:16 a.m.
NOT A TA said:

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

I'm often impressed with the things you think of.

Lots of drugs in college.  Not suggesting it's a good thing.  Or bad.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
11/6/20 5:26 a.m.

Logically, Stampie is (should be) very comfortable with metric weights and their conversion factor.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/6/20 6:00 a.m.

In reply to Appleseed :

And I can count sheets of paper.

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
11/6/20 7:06 a.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Yeah, I said the same parts could be swapped due to the recoup/self-trade FMV rule. Two identical parts would have the same FMV, so trading would be legal. 

To clarify how I understand this, equal FMV requires that the identical parts are also in reasonably comparable condition. While I agree that swapping a busted intake from one engine to another in the yard before hauling it out to purchase is legit, buying both engines and doing so at home would not qualify.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/6/20 7:11 a.m.
gumby (Forum Supporter) said:
Tom Suddard said:

Yeah, I said the same parts could be swapped due to the recoup/self-trade FMV rule. Two identical parts would have the same FMV, so trading would be legal. 

To clarify how I understand this, equal FMV requires that the identical parts are also in reasonably comparable condition. While I agree that swapping a busted intake from one engine to another in the yard before hauling it out to purchase is legit, buying both engines and doing so at home would not qualify.

And to further this line of questioning, above it is implied that he's picking the best parts between the engines.  Best comparison I can come up with is I grab a 73 Cadillac 472 and a 70 Cadillac 472 from the yard.  I swap the 70 heads onto the 74 (edit 73 not awake yet) long block and I get a nice healthy 12:1 compression ratio.  So yes I paid the same for the two engines but the parts off them aren't the same.

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/6/20 7:21 a.m.

Yeah what's the purpose of swapping cams and intakes?  If they're identical there's no reason to.  If they're not identical they need to be budgeted as such

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
11/6/20 7:21 a.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

In my junkyard price list however, a cylinder head is a cylinder head and using a corporate price for FMV is legit by the rule.

A fine line indeed.

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/6/20 7:40 a.m.

It's not a fine line if Tom has already ruled on it. 

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/6/20 7:43 a.m.

In reply to gumby (Forum Supporter) :

This is where E36 M3 gets very grey.  I can go buy early 5.3 heads at the junkyard alllll day for list price.  They're always available because they only sell for that on craigslist/fbmp.  Every once in a great while an 07+ lands and if i'm first i can grab those heads for the same price, but they sell for $4-500 a set.  They're not littered around every pull a part.  In this case the pull a part price sheet shouldn't be a consideration because they really are not readily available and their free market pricing is drastically different.  

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/6/20 7:45 a.m.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

It's not a fine line if Tom has already ruled on it. 

But what if this opens toms eyes to some new questions?  Like why do you want to swap cams?  If it's like for like as tom says is ok what's the point of doing the work?  

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/6/20 7:47 a.m.

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

I didn't mean to imply Tom can't change his mind. New information is good. 
 

But at the moment, it's not a fine line.  Tom gave a clear ruling, and changing it would be a big hit to the OP

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/6/20 7:49 a.m.

Opinion unrelated to OP but we're going down that road:

 

berkeley FMV.  If you didn't get a receipt, ya done berkeleyed up A-Aron.  Better luck documenting your purchase next time.  Use the part on a non challenge car.  

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
11/6/20 7:51 a.m.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

To clarify, the only rulings I've given so far are my two posts above. I haven't given any blanket "swap all your engine parts all the time" decision. But I'm also not willing to rewrite the FMV rules right now. If this is abused, I likely will.

Maybe we need a blanket "bad faith" rule that kicks in at a certain point? It's tough to legislate morality unfortunately, especially in a competition like this. 

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/6/20 7:58 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

And to clarify "same parts" is identical exact copies not swap 70 Cadillac heads for 73 Cadillac heads.  Or an LS1 intake for a truck intake?

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/6/20 7:58 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Understood. 
 

So, is the OP's third engine swappable?

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
11/6/20 8:00 a.m.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

It's not a fine line if Tom has already ruled on it. 

The line I am indicating is not about what Tom said, or FMV trades. The fine line is between what the rules currently allow and "don't be a dick."

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