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Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
5/13/21 3:56 p.m.

I'm gunna regret asking but let's play fair...

Say you have a racecar built on a working man's but not challenge budget. Say that car is written off on track but can donate significant parts to a challenge car. Say the accident involved the car running upside down long enough for low oil pressure warnings to store in the ecu, causing no one to want to make a reasonable FMV offer on the engine. If nobody that would otherwise buy it wants to buy it are we good with scrap? 

200k k24a2, used k20 oil pump, eBay manifold and gtx3076

Ep3 fwd 5spd

32mm hubs and axles

Kpro v4 

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/13/21 5:21 p.m.

In reply to Byrneon27 :

I would suggest finding out what national chains charge for that specific engine core charge.  If you get several then you can FMV yourself.

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
5/13/21 5:43 p.m.

No one may want to buy the bottom end, but I'm fairly certain that the K-Pro, manifold and turbo would still sell. In fact I would be rather shocked if that setup didn't sell for in the 1200 range even if it came with a boat anchor 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/13/21 5:48 p.m.

That's a parts car, not scrap. 
 

FMV. 

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
5/13/21 7:27 p.m.

How do we determine the fmv of a parts car if one cannot get an offer on it whole? 

Offers have been made on the ecu and turbo setup ($900 and $500 respectively) but they will not take the whole shebang. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/13/21 10:32 p.m.

Pics of whole car? And how much do you want?

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/13/21 10:39 p.m.

Also, have you advertised it for sale? 

If you don't actually want to sell it I totally understand, but if you're not seriously selling you're unlikely to get serious offers.

I think you're in an fmv situation too, unfortunately.

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/14/21 6:13 a.m.

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Put it on EBay with a crazy high reserve. See what the bids get up to. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/14/21 6:14 a.m.

...or post it here and ask. 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
5/14/21 7:50 a.m.

1) Compression test the engine, it's a pain in the hootus, but it can be done with a non running engine.

 

2) I'm interested in the turbo, which housing is on it? 

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
5/14/21 10:48 a.m.

As a point I don't want to sell any of the drivetrain. But line me up on FMV for parts

 

06 Tsx k24a2 200k no warranty from the yard bought with a few other engines have a legit receipt for $300 which is about half of market value. 

Plm sidewinder manifold $419 new. Unloved used as they often crack. Found some sales between $200-400. 

Chinese gtx3076 gen 2 billet wheel ball bearings .082 T3 in V band out turbine housing. $639 new. 

Pnd (base rsx) ecu with Kpro v4 $1049 new they don't lose value 

Comp twin disc... I have two, the next to new one in this car ($1349 in stock here) probably could go for around $1000 used. A worn the hell out million year old one (used prices are wild on these some people nearly give them away sometimes people give $800 for garbage) 

Ep3 si trans... Again $100-700 wildly variable

 

To meet the letter of/spirit of the rules how hard do I have to work to get an accurate FMV, ie if I'm deliberately inflexible advertising the whole car or nothing is going to reduce the buyer pool and presumably reduce the "value" (I only buy part out cars on a smokin deal) 

The Kpro and new clutch are just out for challenge purposes and I promise that's not slowing the challenge car down. 

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
5/14/21 10:49 a.m.

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
5/14/21 11:47 a.m.

Me> I'd fill the motor with oil and run it for a while, and then cut up the oil filter to see if there is any metal in it.

Otherwise the short block is scrap value.

Unless the lack of oil pressure was a stored code from some other infarction, then there is the fact that upside down it was not making any power so the chances of damage are lessened (pretty low).

This brings into the equation ethics.  

If you buy a motor for your challenge car and it turns out to be junk and you have to replace it the cost of the original motor IS a part of your car budget even if you don't use it.

It seems like the challenge is not so much about the race, as it is about gaming the rules for an advantage.

Scoring should provide bonuses for single donor/brand entries, as it seems that Frankenstein'd entries seem to dominate.

Although it is exciting to see the creativity applied to the wilder entries I see it as a very difficult to tech as, the wilder the entry gets, the more the rules need to be "interpreted".

THe challenge has become something different than just making a junk car last the duration and be competitive. It is becoming more FSAE like, more engineering oriented than common automotive hackery.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/14/21 11:58 a.m.

It looks like you've got a pretty good handle on what the FMV of those parts are. 

I think you're trying to get an FMV on the whole car though, right? Because that is what would have lower value now that it is wrecked (and of course anything that uses oil is suspect now too).

But unfortunately anyone buying that car now would be buying it for the parts. So the FMV of the car is driven by the FMV of the parts. 

Your real receipt on the engine is probably better than FMV. Use that for sure. I'm sure you can argue the turbo has been beat up by rallyx use and by being in a rolled car. The Kpro is gonna be real hard to use on a challenge budget. It's one of the rules that I think is super-murky in the challenge because HP tuner 'credits' are not included in budget but modding your honda ECU to run Kpro IS technically in budget (because it's a physical MOD, not just a TOOL). Maybe there is an appeal to make there?

The clutch probably shouldn't be used in a challenge car, unless you need something better than stock. But like the kpro it's gonna suck up a lot of budget. 

The trans can probably be FMV'd with junkyard prices. Anything special about it or is it just stock out of a specific honda? Unless its a super-specific diamond in the rough trans, junkyard trans pricing should be easy to establish. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/14/21 12:04 p.m.
bentwrench said:

It seems like the challenge is not so much about the race, as it is about gaming the rules for an advantage.

Scoring should provide bonuses for single donor/brand entries, as it seems that Frankenstein'd entries seem to dominate.

Although it is exciting to see the creativity applied to the wilder entries I see it as a very difficult to tech as, the wilder the entry gets, the more the rules need to be "interpreted".

THe challenge has become something different than just making a junk car last the duration and be competitive. It is becoming more FSAE like, more engineering oriented than common automotive hackery.

I disagree with a lot of this. There are a few folks on this board who go on and on about how to game the rules. But they are not the ones winning the challenge. And the frankenstein cars score well because they are able to present the purpose behind the build. 

I believe one of the reasons I scored well in the concour this past year is I made a HUGE point of how I wanted my drivetrain to be 100% stock as off the bike. Heck, I even opted to NOT extend the wiring harness because I wanted a very reliable engine and trans that did not have to be fiddled with wasting time and brain space on competition day.  

the F-dat has exactly 3 donors. 2009 CBR600 bike, super-old formula 440 frame, and a datsun roadster body. Maybe a handful of fabricated parts, but I'm not sure I'd call it frankenstein. I purposely limited sources during the build so that the car would be factory-reliable, and it worked so far. 

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress Reader
5/14/21 12:25 p.m.

I think you're having trouble valuing the car as a whole because that's not how they're usually sold-there really isn't a market so it's tough to find comps. This car would almost always be parted out piece by piece. I think you're gonna have to get an FMV for each piece and then value the shell for scrap prices if you still want to use it.

It's a PITA but the rules are pretty straightforward:

All fair market values used must be proved in your build book with supporting documentation. Ways to prove fair market value include:

  • Copies of corporate listings of similar items for sale.

  • Copies of at least three comparable listings from a peer-to-peer selling website (eBay, Facebook Marketplace, Craigslist, etc.)

  • A copy of a GRM message board thread where at least 5 users with more than 50 posts have agreed with a proposed fair market value for your item.

I'm not sure if there are 5 users here who can agree on an FMV for most of this stuff, so I think you'll have to use the second option. 

Engine is a judgement call-only you know how long it ran upside down. I'd run it (if possible) and check for shavings and bad sounds. If you find either, look for versions with rod knock on FB, failing that use the core charge idea from Stampy. If everything is honky dory, then use the receipt for $300. 

Dunno what to say about the turbo. On the one hand you bought it new, so the 639 makes sense. On the other hand you used it in another, non-challenge car so it's used at this point and you could get valuations according to the second bullet above. 

For the rest I'd get the valuations from FB/Ebay/etc.

Hope this helps-glad the car is the only thing from the accident getting parted out. 

In reply to bentwrench :

THe challenge has become something different than just making a junk car last the duration and be competitive. It is becoming more FSAE like, more engineering oriented than common automotive hackery.

That's racing I guess?

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
5/14/21 2:01 p.m.

The dude who was driving it has no valuable parts left or I'd be selling him too lol.

The valuation for the car is extra tricky as it was one of maybe ten completed awd ep3 conversions. All of the "valuable" ep3 parts were either long removed or now not exactly the shape they should be. 

 

 

 

So the plan here is to toss as much of this into my Civic truck as possible. 

Kpro is out, I have a $150 AEM series 2 here 

Clutch I'm indifferent towards $175 eBay 4 puck will last a couple 600hp passes. 

For what it's worth this is all Honda into Honda, you could do it in an AutoZone parking lot except for the S10 back glass and the spray foam holding it in. 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
5/14/21 5:23 p.m.

I'm of the mindset that things like the turbo, manifold, axles and anything else if originally purchased prior to the upside occurance would all still be the original price paid for them if staying on/with the chassis.

 

This prevents someone from running in an iron duke class with NASA in a C5 Z06, then if it gets balled up in a racing incident, being able to find one on iaai or copart, swap over everything from the Phoenix racing catalog onto chassis in kart form and more than likely podium. 

 

I'm really intrigued I would love to see an all-wheel drive EP3 show up, but much more information and possible transparency is needed about the original build pre wreck. And how those parts came to be. 

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
5/14/21 6:26 p.m.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/a-tapestry-of-nonsense/183175/page2/

 

There's the build thread. The ep3 chassis is too bent to do anything with. 

 

That's the 2021 challenge car

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
5/14/21 8:26 p.m.

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Upon reviewing the build thread laughyes also, did that EG Ute come from Anne Arundel county MD by chance?

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
5/14/21 11:08 p.m.

Possibly it's bounced around from rural PA to 'hood PA and back a couple times. 

AWSX1686 (Forum Supporter)
AWSX1686 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
5/18/21 9:12 a.m.

I mean, couldn't I just buy the entire EP3 from you for $1k, and then sell it back to you for $1k?...

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 Reader
5/18/21 2:01 p.m.

Hehehehehe you give me $850 in recoup ($500 ep3, $350 truck) money and those parts I promise there's a 9.99 in the truck

 

Trying to play fair however. I think I have a reasonably agreeable solution ironed out

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/15/21 8:13 a.m.

If you buy a motor for your challenge car and it turns out to be junk and you have to replace it the cost of the original motor IS a part of your car budget even if you don't use it.

I was reading through this thread and this caught my eye. Is this really true?  I thaught what is on the car is what hits the budget. 

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/15/21 8:17 a.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

Not if that engine was a separate transaction from everything else. 

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