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Byrneon27
Byrneon27 HalfDork
5/30/23 2:03 p.m.

I've been trying to wait but we've had a weekend of camaraderie and good times I do believe it's appropriate to begin the discussion/argument we have every year... 

What was discussed at the town hall? What are we thinking about for next year? 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/30/23 2:08 p.m.

You'd already know if you joined us at the town hall....laugh

2024 rules have been posted:

https://2000challenge.com/rules

 

At this point, any discussion will be about 2027 rules, as I don't want to make any big changes for three years. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
5/30/23 2:47 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

You'd already know if you joined us at the town hall....laugh

2024 rules have been posted:

https://2000challenge.com/rules

 

At this point, any discussion will be about 2027 rules, as I don't want to make any big changes for three years. 

Please note, as stated in the Town Hall, this does not mean there will be a rule change in 3 years, just that management does not want to have to plan for rule changes anytime soon

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/30/23 2:54 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I like the revised recoup + trade rule.

My only question is: are recoup and trade each limited to $1000, or is the only limit on the sum of recoup plus trade?

I'm so happy to be back. Thanks for putting on this event.

Byrneon27
Byrneon27 HalfDork
5/30/23 3:26 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

You'd already know if you joined us at the town hall....laugh

2024 rules have been posted:

https://2000challenge.com/rules

 

At this point, any discussion will be about 2027 rules, as I don't want to make any big changes for three years. 

Wednesday night I couldn't bring myself to load up another (probably the same) slow car from last year. Gotta make the event before you can make the meeting. I love the idea of keeping rules the same for a few years! 

gumby
gumby GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/30/23 4:36 p.m.

1) For clarification of over vs. under budget side bets, are over-budget cars required to comply with the "Eligible Vehicles" section?

"This section does not apply to competitors in over-budget classes" specifically exempts them from the budget and documentation sections, but this is not stated in "Eligible Vehicles." Examples: FSAE, kit cars, real LMP cars, etc etc

 

B) "Trades count towards your recoup limit [at the receipted value or FMV of the part leaving the budget], and must be recorded on your budget sheet."

Does my bolded addition properly represent the number to be recorded?

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/30/23 4:53 p.m.

In reply to gumby :

Yes, correct on both fronts.

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/30/23 5:35 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

So if I bought a car for $500 that came with a $1200 FMV transmission, I can trade the transmission for whatever and record the receipted value of $500?

Patrick
Patrick GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/30/23 7:15 p.m.

In reply to Stampie :

Sounds like it. I have some excellent stuff on tap for Warren's car that can utilize some more recoup space if he hasn't maxed out trades as recoup under the new rule. I do like the new rule for simplicity and to shut everyone up on both sides

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) UltimaDork
5/30/23 8:07 p.m.

In reply to Patrick :

Not sure what you're thinking, still getting my head around the implications of the new rule. To aid your thinking , I've recouped $470 under the old rules and I traded two sets of wheels (purchased for $50 & $80) for two wider sets and a pair of drag slicks. I'll dig out my receipts and notes and start a detailed list.

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/31/23 9:30 a.m.

Ok so if I've already zeroed out that $500 car then I can trade my $1200 FMV transmission for whatever at no budget hit right?

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
5/31/23 9:35 a.m.
Stampie said:

Ok so if I've already zeroed out that $500 car then I can trade my $1200 FMV transmission for whatever at no budget hit right?

What I got from the discussion during the town hall was in your situation you could 

Trade $1200 transmission for $1200 worth of parts (by establishing FMV is equivalent through approved rules mechanisms) that could be on the car at no budget hit but would document value equivalency and count for $1200 of your $2000 Trade/recoup limit.  (In your example you would have used $1700 of the limit $500 recoup + $1200 trade).  

 

The rules as written right now imply that you couldn't do anything with your $1200 transmission as you have already traded or recouped the value you paid for the pile of stuff.  Currently even after the changes you cannot recover more then $500 of part value out of your purchase and since trades have to be documented you can't trade that transmission for challenge car parts.  

gumby
gumby GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/31/23 10:00 a.m.
nocones said:

The rules as written right now imply that you couldn't do anything with your $1200 transmission as you have already traded or recouped the value you paid for the pile of stuff.  Currently even after the changes you cannot recover more then $500 of part value out of your purchase and since trades have to be documented you can't trade that transmission for challenge car parts.  

I agree with this interpretation as the rules are written. 

Subsequently, what about rescinding the per-item recoup limit now that everything is under the $2000 recoup cap? It would make things simpler and more true to the realities of budget building.

darkbuddha
darkbuddha HalfDork
5/31/23 10:01 a.m.

First, let me say I really appreciated the discussion and results of the Town Hall. The new trade rule and modified recoup max make a ton of sense. Second, my interpretation of the new rules is the same as nocones: recoup means selling of parts, and trades are not recoup, though trades do count against the recoup max. I like that the new rule means that there's accounting for EVERYTHING on the build within the combination of expenditure max and recoup max (minus exceptions). It definitely helps simplify explaining the costs/value of the build to civilians.

Patrick
Patrick GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/2/23 8:26 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

On a well bought car with a lot of parts, and with trades now counting as recoup, I suggest that recoup cap at $2k eliminates the need for the "can't recoup more than the initial purchase"

example: i paid $1000 for the Wartburg with everything for it. I sold over $2000 of stuff, and my real world dollar outlay is significantly less than the challenge budget dictates. I'm obviously beyond bringing it, however, if that recoup cap per item was gone it would be eligible. 
 

this would make the budget much more true to real world numbers?

holy crap, updating my 2023 budget to the 2024 rule counting trades as recoup puts me dangerously close to the $2000 limit. i like this a lot less today than i did at the town hall, LOL. looks like rust-oleum plus hardener vs actual automotive paint.  :-(

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/2/23 8:21 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

So can we get more wording on the recoup more than the car or part is bought for?  I see a lot of broken budgets because traditionally we could zero out then trade.  Now we can zero out and any anything else that came with the car is worthless.

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) UltimaDork
6/2/23 8:28 p.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Look for "paint" on FB Marketplace. There's a place in Owosso that sells paint for $12/gallon. In amongst thousands of cans of house paint there may be some Sherwin-Williams industrial paint. I bought a gallon each of gray, white and red for $10/gallon pre-Covid. The red is tool box/snowblower paint so it should look fine.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/6/23 12:45 p.m.

@Tom Suddard, there are many people in this thread looking for clarifications.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/6/23 1:08 p.m.

So, if I get the "Free Europa" for $0 and it comes with a good chassis that's worth $2000, I can recoup the entire $2000 (even though I paid nothing for it)?

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
6/6/23 1:54 p.m.
SV reX said:

So, if I get the "Free Europa" for $0 and it comes with a good chassis that's worth $2000, I can recoup the entire $2000 (even though I paid nothing for it)?

I would be fine with that. 

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
6/6/23 1:55 p.m.

The way the rules read now, you can't recoup more than you paid. Effectively banning negative budget cars. This was not discussed at the town hall, and it's still written in the updated rules, so there is no reason to expect this to have changed. 

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
6/6/23 2:08 p.m.

I would like recoup to be $2k through trade or sell off with no concern for the buy in price of the car. (non-budgeted trade in the old rules kind of took care of this)

Example A old rules: $0 car with $2k sold off=$2k initial budget to spend + $0k recoup to spend=$2k total spent

Example A Josh new rules: $0 car with $2k sold off=$2k initial budget to spend + $2k recoup to spend=$4k total spent

 

Example B old and Josh new rules: $2k car with $2k sold off=$2k spent on initial car +2K recoup to spend=$4k total spent

 

Example C old rules: $1k car with $1k sold off=$1k spent on initial car+ $1k remaining budget to spend + $1k recoup to spend=$3k total spent.

Example C Josh new rules:  $1k car with $2k sold off=$1k spent on initial car+ $1k remaining budget to spend + $2k recoup to spend=$4k total spent.

 

The "Josh" rules gives everyone who works to make out the rules about $4k to spend regardless of starting point. The extremes in price have thier own challenges, but thats up to challengers to figure out.

maschinenbau said:

The way the rules read now, you can't recoup more than you paid. Effectively banning negative budget cars. This was not discussed at the town hall, and it's still written in the updated rules, so there is no reason to expect this to have changed. 

it was asked (by me and the guy sitting to my right), but the conversation moved on as someone else was asking a question which led to some additional discussion and I didn't press for an answer.

my position is that counting trades as recoup and raising total recoup to $2000 adequately controls spending and trading, therefore the individual limits on each line item purchased are redundant and overly restrictive.

so i'd like a "Yes we'll change that" or a "No we will leave it as-is" from GRM.  Gumby, Patrick, Stampie, and I have asked that question in this thread, and i think it came up in the other budget rule thread.

Bigben
Bigben HalfDork
6/7/23 1:20 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
maschinenbau said:

The way the rules read now, you can't recoup more than you paid. Effectively banning negative budget cars. This was not discussed at the town hall, and it's still written in the updated rules, so there is no reason to expect this to have changed. 

it was asked (by me and the guy sitting to my right), but the conversation moved on as someone else was asking a question which led to some additional discussion and I didn't press for an answer.

my position is that counting trades as recoup and raising total recoup to $2000 adequately controls spending and trading, therefore the individual limits on each line item purchased are redundant and overly restrictive.

so i'd like a "Yes we'll change that" or a "No we will leave it as-is" from GRM.  Gumby, Patrick, Stampie, and I have asked that question in this thread, and i think it came up in the other budget rule thread.

Did we get a definitive response yet from Tom? 

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