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Slow_M
Slow_M Reader
1/2/21 11:31 a.m.
JoeTR6 said:

The gearbox came out in 5 minutes, and that includes taking out the last two studs on top.  Putting in a flush drain plug helped it from getting caught on the floor.  I did need to pull the rear mount to make enough room as the top of the flange hit the firewall if it was jacked up enough to clear.  There's a little bit of oil in the bell housing, but not enough to account for the entire leak.  Pulling the clutch and flywheel tomorrow.

Where did you get that oil pan?! Nice piece! 

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/2/21 1:49 p.m.
Slow_M said:

Where did you get that oil pan?! Nice piece! 

That is the Bastuck pan.  I got it from BPNW, but I think others carry it.  It is about 1 inch deeper than the stock pan and comes with a windage tray.  I added a baffle behind the oil pump pickup with flap doors.  It should help stiffen up the block slightly and cool the oil.

Googling this part now to see if it's still available, I saw several complaints of porous castings and leaks.  Wouldn't that be a kicker?  Maybe I should have painted the inside with Glyptal.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/2/21 5:02 p.m.

I think I found the culprit.  The flywheel has oil only around the center where it bolts to the crank.  Then there's this...

I'll pull the adapter plate off just to see what's going on behind it, but the only way for that much oil to be on the end of the crankshaft is for the seal to be leaking.  Now the question is why is the seal leaking?  Maybe there's a groove worn in the crank or it's scratched, but I really don't think so.  Possibly a bad seal or it's installed off-center.

oppositelocksmith
oppositelocksmith New Reader
1/13/21 9:29 a.m.

I'm glad you've been able to find something that might or is driving the leak. 

One question- do you have a crankcase ventilation system on the engine like the stock does? I know you're running EFI, and I'm not sure how it would attach with that. Missing that, any hint of blowby would push oil past the seal. 

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/13/21 6:16 p.m.
oppositelocksmith said:

I'm glad you've been able to find something that might or is driving the leak. 

One question- do you have a crankcase ventilation system on the engine like the stock does? I know you're running EFI, and I'm not sure how it would attach with that. Missing that, any hint of blowby would push oil past the seal. 

Yes, I have Richard Good's oil catch can setup that pulls from the valve cover and drains into the block with a PCV valve on the vacuum supply line.  There's enough vacuum in the crankcase that it hisses for several seconds after shutting down the engine.  I've verified this by removing the oil fill cap and placing my hand over the opening.  Also, running with the system vented to atmosphere made no difference in the leak.

I finally found time to remove the engine adapter plate.  Here's what it looks like behind it.

Everything is dry except for the crank seal and rear cover plate/oil pan seam.  There's plenty of Hylomar extruded from the oil pan flange, so unless that's just the wrong thing to use with engine oil, it should be fine.  I'm going to presume it's the crank seal.  So the fix should be replace that, clean up the oil pan flange that I can access, and seal that with RTV.  I don't see any obvious damage to the seal, but it appears to be slightly cocked and this may be causing it to wear and leak.  I'll also remove that top bolt and hit it with some ARP thread sealer even though it has a copper washer and is currently dry.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/13/21 7:30 p.m.

I'm thinking this may help.

https://mossmotors.com/speedi-sleeve-rear-crank-1

I'll pull the seal tomorrow and check the crank sealing surface.

 

 

dherr (Forum Supporter)
dherr (Forum Supporter) Dork
1/14/21 9:19 a.m.

I noticed the seal looked crooked in the previous photo before you removed the adapter plate, so good to see that it is probably the source of the leak. That speedi sleeve might also help you in this regard as it sounds like you are not the first one with this issue.

AxeHealey
AxeHealey GRM+ Memberand Dork
1/14/21 9:26 a.m.

Glad you're tracking it down. Are you using PennGrade? It looks green on the lip of the pan from here (not the sealant). 

I've always used VR-1 Racing oil but recently switched to Penn and I like it. I think as it sits now, the race car has Penn in it and the Healey got VR-1 last time around. 

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/14/21 10:19 a.m.

Yes, I've been using Penn Grade for several years now.  If I were tracking a car, I might switch to a full synthetic like Valvoline VR -1, but the Penn Grade oil seems to hold up well enough.

The seal used here is a two-lip seal sold by Wishbone Classics.  It is made in Taiwan, so I may go with the one that came in the Payen gasket set.  It's cheaper (possibly free if I have one) and it has lasted 25 years and 30k miles in another car.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/15/21 3:30 p.m.

I have a decision to make.  Checking my parts stash, I came up with this.

There's a spare seal plate that's flat with good threads in the bottom.  The seal in that is used and rock hard.  Then there's the black seal that was still in a wrapper, but you can see from the shape that it's a hard no.  Then there's the spare red seal.  That one is a spare from my previous TR6 that's at least 20 years old.  The spring looks a little oxidized, but it's straight, clean and pliable.  I'm considering going with this seal as all of the vendors are offering one that costs less than $3.  I can't help thinking there's a reason they're so cheap.  BPNW lists the Payen seal for $10, but it's out of stock.

Another thing to decide is whether to remove the seal plate.  Unless someone talks me out of it, it's coming out so that the new seal can be centered properly and to reseal it's joint with the oil pan.  The threads were good when it was installed and I didn't see any cracks, but I may as well use the better plate of the two I have.

In reply to JoeTR6 :

Hmmm.  I'm reluctant about old rubber parts.

Maybe try to track down the Payen seal from somewhere else?

I'd hate to see you doing this all over again in the summer.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
1/15/21 7:39 p.m.

If it is still pliable it is still a good part. These elastomers fail from heat or UV light. Dark shelf and not in an engine, they last forever. It will still take the same number of years in the engine to age out as a new orange seal

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/15/21 7:46 p.m.
TurnerX19 said:

If it is still pliable it is still a good part. These elastomers fail from heat or UV light. Dark shelf and not in an engine, they last forever. It will still take the same number of years in the engine to age out as a new orange seal

Thanks, that's good to know.  This was in a paper envelope in a closed box with my other engine parts.  I suspect the quality is much better than what is readily available.  I spent quite a while looking for a better seal online and gave up.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/18/21 3:45 p.m.

I'm ready to turn the wrenches around and put the gearbox back.  The new/old seal is installed in the engine rear seal plate.  The remaining question concerns what to do with that plate.  Here's how things look.

As you can see, the upper surface of the pan gasket tore when I removed the seal plate.  It also may have lifted from the pan flange, but Hylomar is non-hardening and should rebond.  The edges of the plate were dry when removed, so the leak was definitely coming from the seal itself.  I'm thinking that I'll use a paper gasket and RTV against the block (what I did before) but just RTV along the bottom.  After that's set, I can lay another bead of RTV all along the bottom edge for insurance.  My only concern is getting the seal centered with the pan in place.  I'll need to compress the RTV on the bottom with the pan bolts until it's centered, then torque the remaining bolts down.  After the RTV sets, I'll torque the pan bolts.  Sound good?

The crank has a faint line worn on the sealing surface where the seal touches, but there's no measurable groove.  I displaced the seal slightly to move it to a fresh part of the crank anyway.

dherr (Forum Supporter)
dherr (Forum Supporter) Dork
1/20/21 12:21 p.m.

In reply to JoeTR6 :

Hey Joe, what kit did you order for your gas pedal? I am putting a TR6 pedal box in a TR4A and need to replicate what you have done for my throttle cable and gas pedal. Looks like it will solve my problem, appreciate any links or part numbers, is it a Lokar Competitor Series Throttle Pedal?

 

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/20/21 3:40 p.m.
dherr (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to JoeTR6 :

Hey Joe, what kit did you order for your gas pedal? I am putting a TR6 pedal box in a TR4A and need to replicate what you have done for my throttle cable and gas pedal. Looks like it will solve my problem, appreciate any links or part numbers, is it a Lokar Competitor Series Throttle Pedal?

 

It's some sort of Lokar pedal, but I can't find the receipt to tell exactly which one.  I originally fit that pedal kit, but ended up using a modified stock pedal so that I could customize the cable arm length.  It also was a little short and wobbled more than the stock pedal.  I still have the Lokar pedal in a box and will be glad to donate it to the cause.

The seal plate is in and waiting on the sealant to set before torquing the bolts.  A new copper washer and ARP thread sealer are on the top bolt.

dherr (Forum Supporter)
dherr (Forum Supporter) Dork
1/20/21 3:46 p.m.

That looks really good, betting that solves the problem. Seal looks even the whole way around the crank, so fingers crossed.

I'll take you up on that Lokar pedal if you want to get rid of it. I'll pm you to get the details. Thanks!

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/20/21 4:05 p.m.

Here's the Lokar pedal.  The arm can be rotated into any position.

Yeah, this time I used calipers to center the seal.  It's within a few mils.

dherr (Forum Supporter)
dherr (Forum Supporter) Dork
1/20/21 5:44 p.m.

That will work, I sent you a PM with my address just let me know the cost and I'll paypal or venmo you the money.

TVR Scott (Forum Supporter)
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/21/21 11:07 a.m.

Looks pretty good, Joe.  Hopefully that'll cure the leaks.

You going to autocross at PPIR this Sunday?  I'm signed up in the Focus.  Maybe I'll see you there!

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/21/21 11:47 a.m.
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) said:

Looks pretty good, Joe.  Hopefully that'll cure the leaks.

You going to autocross at PPIR this Sunday?  I'm signed up in the Focus.  Maybe I'll see you there!

Maybe I'll go to observe.  The Fiesta is running old Blizzaks and the MSM has worn out Conti DSWs.  Plus I haven't signed up yet.

TVR Scott (Forum Supporter)
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/21/21 12:59 p.m.

In reply to JoeTR6 :

You want to co-drive my Focus?  I haven't had my ass kicked in my own car yet.  Seems like a valuable milestone.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
1/21/21 4:32 p.m.

One of my wife's kids is coming over on Sunday, so I'm probably out.  That and my driving skills are seriously rusty.  I do plan on getting a new set of tires for the Miata, though.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
2/4/21 10:52 a.m.

So far, 2021 has been a E36 M3-show for me.  I won't go into details but simply advise to never let a mentally ill person live in your home, even for a short period of time.  Things are getting better, but you know it's bad when a lawyer gets involved.

TVR Scott (Forum Supporter)
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
2/4/21 12:38 p.m.

In reply to JoeTR6 :

Ugh.  Sorry to hear that.

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