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ccrelan (Forum Supporter)
ccrelan (Forum Supporter) Reader
9/10/22 7:54 a.m.

Here is an out of the box suggestion:  Mercedes M111 kompressor engine- ditch the super charger for a turbo and you can make some pretty good power.  Dirt cheap to buy and found in a ton of Mercedes models..

Mezzanine
Mezzanine Dork
9/11/22 2:06 p.m.
ccrelan (Forum Supporter) said:

Here is an out of the box suggestion:  Mercedes M111 kompressor engine- ditch the super charger for a turbo and you can make some pretty good power.  Dirt cheap to buy and found in a ton of Mercedes models..

What FWD transaxle bolts up to an M111? Surely there was no factory combination with this engine, right? Mercedes was all front engine/RWD in this era, at least in the US, but I'm hoping you can educate me otherwise if not. 

 

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/12/22 9:28 a.m.
obsolete said:

In reply to GasTungstenArc :

Here's something else to ponder that I haven't seen mentioned up to this point--how heavy/grabby of a clutch are you comfortable with to hold that 400hp?

Since the 02M takes a flywheel set up for a 240mm clutch, I don't expect to have to go radical to hold the torque.  I semi-DDd a car with a 210mm "feramic" four puck solid hub clutch.  The only part of that that I wouldn't want to repeat is the solid hub.  I expect to hold the torque with a full faced clutch and maybe 20% increase in pedal force required for disengagement.  

I also don't know if I can get all the way to 400HP on pump gas with an 8V engine.  It's not that it's impossible to force enough air and fuel into the 8V to get to 400HP, but it might not be possible to do without detonation; the 8V combustion chamber is not what you'd call optimized.  The SPA cylinder head that I intend to use looks to be improved in the chambers, but it is still constrained by some built-in VW design limitations such as valve positions.  I want to avoid adding water/meth injection if I can.  I would consider a dual fuel system in which race fuel is injected from a second fuel rail above a certain boost threshold.  Or I could keep it simple and get what I can get from 93 octane and stop there.  

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/12/22 12:46 p.m.
Mezzanine said:
ccrelan (Forum Supporter) said:

Here is an out of the box suggestion:  Mercedes M111 kompressor engine- ditch the super charger for a turbo and you can make some pretty good power.  Dirt cheap to buy and found in a ton of Mercedes models..

What FWD transaxle bolts up to an M111? 

That was my first thought.  I suppose I overlooked my biggest requirement of all: the engine MUST natively bolt up to a strong transverse cable shifted manual transmission.

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/13/22 2:01 p.m.

Thanks to those who made powertrain suggestions.  I think I am going to proceed down the VW 8VT path.  It's just more "me" than the other options.  VR turbo thoughts do creep in on occasion, but those thoughts come up because the displacement would allow me to make easy, relatively low stress power.  

So, reframing a bit here...  I don't know if I can stick to that 400HP goal with the 8V engine.  I don't know how hard they can be pushed on pump gas, and I am not sure about committing to a higher AKI fuel.   Thoughts on fuel below.  Engine build and turbo would be the same regardless.  Please add your own thoughts:

High test is 93 octane in my area, with 94 available at Sunoco.  I'd try for as much power as I can get, but 300-350HP might be a more reasonable goal.

E85 is not hard to find where I live.  I think 400HP would be uncomplicated on E85, but I have three concerns about E85:

1) It's not always truly E85, and I don't know how the AKI is affected by fluctuations in ethanol-gasoline ratio;

2) It's available here, but not everywhere.  I'm imagining a road trip and having to plan fuel stops and destinations based on the fuel I need;

3) I don't know how well ethanol keeps in a fuel tank, and I also don't know how ethanol would act in an aluminum fuel tank.  I know that ethanol isn't as bad as methanol when it comes to aluminum, but I think it's more reactive than gasoline.  Yes, I could flush and winterize the fuel system, but I don't know how well I would keep up with that.

I could do a dual fuel system, driving on pump gas and boosting on race fuel or E85.  This is a best of both worlds sort of scenario, but it has its own problems.  It means two of everything, which means twice the expense and twice as many opportunities for leaks--and engine fires.  If I could carry five gallons of boost fuel (E85 or race fuel,) I think it's safe to say that I could take most any road trip and not have octane problems.  

In the end, the extra effort for higher AKI to reach 400HP might not be worth it.  I already know that 220HP in an X1/9 is super fast.  300-350 (achievable on pump gas) would be really wild, probably faster than anything I have driven, and will probably always be enough to make me smile.  It would still cost very little to have something to build around, and it would be one of a kind when it is finished.  Maybe that's good enough for me.  :)

Mezzanine
Mezzanine Dork
9/13/22 3:13 p.m.
GasTungstenArc said:

I could do a dual fuel system, driving on pump gas and boosting on race fuel or E85.  This is a best of both worlds sort of scenario, but it has its own problems.  It means two of everything, which means twice the expense and twice as many opportunities for leaks--and engine fires.  If I could carry five gallons of boost fuel (E85 or race fuel,) I think it's safe to say that I could take most any road trip and not have octane problems.  

 

What do you mean requires "two of everything"? E85 is a good solution for your targets, but doesn't require two of anything. You need some hurking big injectors, a gm flex fuel sensor, and an ECU that can support it. 

You mentioned earlier that you don't want to use water/meth injection, and I'd encourage you to reconsider that given your 8v path. It's easy enough to control this from your SEM, setting it so it is only injecting in higher boost situations. That water injection will enable you to run more boost, and make more power safely. 

 300-350 WHP would still be pretty insane in an X. I'm glad you've found some direction!

 

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/13/22 4:29 p.m.
Mezzanine said:
GasTungstenArc said:

I could do a dual fuel system, driving on pump gas and boosting on race fuel or E85.  This is a best of both worlds sort of scenario, but it has its own problems.  It means two of everything, which means twice the expense and twice as many opportunities for leaks--and engine fires.  If I could carry five gallons of boost fuel (E85 or race fuel,) I think it's safe to say that I could take most any road trip and not have octane problems.  

 

What do you mean requires "two of everything"?

You are quoting my "dual fuel system" section, in which the car would drive on a 93 octane fuel system and add E85 from a second fuel system above a certain boost threshold.  Two tanks, two pumps, two supply lines, two return lines, two fuel rails, two FPRs, eight injectors...  Heck, even two fuel gauges.  Two complete circuits, two of everything.  This would get me around the E85 availability issue and allow me to drive the car wherever I want on pump gas, carrying a separate volume of boost fuel for fun.  

No, running the engine on E85 alone would not require two of everything.  Two fuel pumps maybe, depending on the pump and the power.  

Mezzanine
Mezzanine Dork
9/13/22 9:00 p.m.

In reply to GasTungstenArc :

I think I didn't explain that very well. You can run all of that in a single tank/system. You run a flexfuel sensor in the line supplying your fuel rail. It tells the ECU what percentage of Ethanol you're running, and then it supplies fuel accordingly. If you fill up with E85, the sensor tells the ECU, the ECU injects a bunch more, etc. If you fill up with some scuzzy 88 octane, the sensor reads the mix and dials back the injection. A good friend of mine did this with a fairly heavily boosted engine and used that input to adjust boost and timing too. 

You don't need separate systems at all. You need a sensor to tell the ECU what mix of fuel you're running and it'll then choose the appropriate values from the table. I have very limited knowledge of this and even less first hand experience, but I do know it is done. 

Here's Haltech's video on the subject:  

 

Mrfurzzy
Mrfurzzy New Reader
9/13/22 11:26 p.m.

In reply to Mezzanine :

I believe he is talking about having the car add e85 automatically only when under boost, not running a flex fuel setup at all times. I don't personally see the advantage of that instead of just running meth injection which is readily available. Adding e85 under boost would have all the complications with less of the benefits of meth injection. I don't have any hands on experience with either though.

rozap
rozap New Reader
9/14/22 1:27 a.m.

Why not 1.8T? They are extremely plentiful in junk yards and have decent tuning potential. That would have been my X1/9 plan if the VR6 wasn't sitting in my shop taking up space.

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/14/22 8:47 a.m.
Mezzanine said:

In reply to GasTungstenArc :

You don't need separate systems at all. You need a sensor to tell the ECU what mix of fuel you're running and it'll then choose the appropriate values from the table. I have very limited knowledge of this and even less first hand experience, but I do know it is done. 

We are talking about two different things.  Yes, a fuel sensor would allow the ECU to adjust timing according to ethanol content.  But that's not what I am talking about under the "dual fuel system" heading.  I am talking about intentionally building two fuel systems--one for driving and one for boost.  The idea behind this is being able to drive anywhere because I can buy pump gas anywhere, but to carry E85 in a separate fuel system that begins injecting E85 above a set boost threshold.  

 

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/14/22 8:49 a.m.
rozap said:

Why not 1.8T? They are extremely plentiful in junk yards and have decent tuning potential. That would have been my X1/9 plan if the VR6 wasn't sitting in my shop taking up space.

I was never keen on the 1.8T.  I know that they are easy to find these days and they seem to work fine, but I don't want one.  Maybe because it would be too easy?  I have always liked oddballs and orphans.  

I am curious what the clearance is like on the VR.  I saw your pics with the engine set in the bay, but I would like to know how close the serpentine belt is to the right frame rail and what had to happen on the left side for trans clearance.  

Mezzanine
Mezzanine Dork
9/14/22 11:40 a.m.

I completely didn't follow that you were suggesting the dual fuel system as an intentional choice.

400 WHP on pump gas should be attainable without that effort. Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Fuzzy. You and I agree on the benefits of meth injection as a vastly more simple solution. 

 

  

Rigante
Rigante Reader
9/14/22 11:48 a.m.

someone mentioned FWD mercedes trans this is a Mercedes A35 setup, 300bhp from the factory. Comes in an AWD format, but there are many compact 6 speed manual boxes too


 

GoLucky
GoLucky Reader
9/14/22 4:09 p.m.

I’m already enjoying how this build is developing. It’s great that you are excited to use an engine that may not make sense to anyone else. Stoked to see what happens. *grammar edit*

Mezzanine
Mezzanine Dork
9/14/22 4:12 p.m.

I'm with you, GoLucky. I think using the VW engine is a fun change of pace and can still result in a fantastic car. 

StripesSA1
StripesSA1 Reader
9/14/22 4:47 p.m.

As a fellow follower and believer of a VW 8V, I am glad to see the 8V turbo idea being considered. 

Just a question about the block you will be using... Early ABA(external water pump) bubble short block, or later APK(internal water pump) long block? 

 

Also when using the following search parameters in Google gives this video as a first hit:

 

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/14/22 5:01 p.m.
Mrfurzzy said:

In reply to Mezzanine :

I believe he is talking about having the car add e85 automatically only when under boost, not running a flex fuel setup at all times. I don't personally see the advantage of that instead of just running meth injection which is readily available. Adding e85 under boost would have all the complications with less of the benefits of meth injection. I don't have any hands on experience with either though.

Methanol has a lot of advantages, but also some disadvantages.  The advantage is that it has very high resistance to detonation, certainly better than E85 even if E85 were a consistent product.  The disadvantages are 1) methanol is very aggressive on hoses and aluminum parts; 2) methanol is extremely hygroscopic; 3) methanol's stoichiometric ratio is even richer than that of ethanol, meaning that I might have to carry even more of it; 4) methanol has to be bought at race shops or ordered online--no pumps anywhere, unlike E85; 5) methanol is a lot more expensive than E85.

I, too, have no experience with methanol injection.  I don't even know the job of the methanol once it has been injected.  Is it injected in small quantities as "chemical intercooling," or in larger quantities as a high AKI fuel?  If it is injected in small quantities, the cost per gallon doesn't look so bad. 

Mrfurzzy
Mrfurzzy New Reader
9/14/22 6:17 p.m.

In reply to GasTungstenArc :

I have spent a lot of time looking into it for my turbo honda cars. AFAIK it is injected in smaller quantities to help cool the system, not as an octane booster. It is fairly common for people to run windshield washing fluid in homebrew setups. It has a high methanol concentration and can be found fairly cheap and is readily available.

1SlowVW
1SlowVW HalfDork
9/14/22 9:37 p.m.
GasTungstenArc said:
Mezzanine said:

I'd encourage you to stick to what you know. K series are truly great, but being familiar with something is great too. I'd say go with whatever gets you what you want out of this project. If you're doing this as an engineering and fabrication exercise, or if you're doing this as a means to the end to have the car you want, you have to choose the engine that supports that project purpose. 

 

Thank you.  I am doing it for all of the above, really.  I do enjoy the journey more than the destination.  I do like problem solving.  But there's plenty of that to do with any swap.  And, although I do enjoy the journey, I also want to get to the destination, and I am realizing that build cost could become a series of obstacles in the road.  

The only one thing that makes me hesitate at all regarding the VW 8V option is engine management.  The Hondata is SO nice.  Drivability is like factory.  My experience with SEM is very limited.  I don't mind paying a skilled tuner to tune the ECU for me.  I just want to know that drivability would at least be similar to factory, taking into account the limitations of the engine, i.e. low compression and big cam.  All of my 8VT tuning experience has been on CIS, which has always worked out well on small turbochargers and up to about 200WHP.  But we are going well beyond that here.  

Does anybody reading this have first hand experience with getting good drivability out of SEM?  

I had a united Motorsports obd2 tune on stock mk3 management. It ran awesome , but it's not standalone. I think at the time if you asked them nicely they would make you a tune using a larger maf and 630cc injectors which would meet your power goal. 

2_3
2_3 New Reader
9/15/22 12:39 a.m.
GasTungstenArc said:

I was never keen on the 1.8T.  I know that they are easy to find these days and they seem to work fine, but I don't want one.  Maybe because it would be too easy?  I have always liked oddballs and orphans.  

A block from an 8v engine with a 20v head sounds like the weird, fast and hard to build engine. Only problem is people might assume it's a regular 20v

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/15/22 10:23 a.m.
2_3 said:
GasTungstenArc said:

I was never keen on the 1.8T.  I know that they are easy to find these days and they seem to work fine, but I don't want one.  Maybe because it would be too easy?  I have always liked oddballs and orphans.  

A block from an 8v engine with a 20v head sounds like the weird, fast and hard to build engine. Only problem is people might assume it's a regular 20v

I'm not following you.  The 20V head is already put on an engine block that is shared with the 8V.  There's nothing hard or exotic about it.  It's just parts bolting.  I have a friend who put a 1.8T head on an ABA block with ABA replacement forged pistons.  

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/15/22 10:29 a.m.

In reply to StripesSA1 :

Yes, that is the cylinder head I am planning to use.  The ABA head would do the job once ported with better valves and solid lifters, but the SPA head seems to make more sense in every way for only $400 more.  (Yes, the SPA head requires lots and lots of work, but I would have paid for the same work on an OE ABA head.

I am planning to use an ABA block.  The AEG was our market's replacement for the ABA.  Like all 06A-blocked engines, the AEG uses 144mm rods.  I much prefer the 159mm rods of the ABA.  I will be looking for an early ABA (OBD1) engine, which has a forged crankshaft and oil squirters.  I still have several VW enthusiast friends, so locating an OBD1 ABA bottom end should not be difficult.  

GasTungstenArc
GasTungstenArc Reader
9/15/22 10:31 a.m.
Mrfurzzy said:

In reply to GasTungstenArc :

I have spent a lot of time looking into it for my turbo honda cars. AFAIK it is injected in smaller quantities to help cool the system, not as an octane booster. It is fairly common for people to run windshield washing fluid in homebrew setups. It has a high methanol concentration and can be found fairly cheap and is readily available.

Then that could work better than I was thinking.  It sounds like 2, 3, maybe 4 gallons of methanol would be enough.  

Mezzanine
Mezzanine Dork
9/16/22 11:59 a.m.
GasTungstenArc said:
Mrfurzzy said:

In reply to GasTungstenArc :

I have spent a lot of time looking into it for my turbo honda cars. AFAIK it is injected in smaller quantities to help cool the system, not as an octane booster. It is fairly common for people to run windshield washing fluid in homebrew setups. It has a high methanol concentration and can be found fairly cheap and is readily available.

Then that could work better than I was thinking.  It sounds like 2, 3, maybe 4 gallons of methanol would be enough.  

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's just water injection, but using windshield washing fluid for the meth content. The main purpose is to reduce intake temps so you can get more timing. 

This style of water injection is typically a small 1-2 gallon tank, a pump, and a nozzle on the intake just upstream of the throttle. It can be done simply with a pressure switch to turn it on, or through your engine management system. I believe the practical result is similar to getting more detonation resistance as you might with higher octane. Note that the steam in the cylinders makes for the cleanest engines you will ever see. No carbon buildup of any kind on a water injected engine. 

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