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moparman76_69
moparman76_69 HalfDork
12/5/12 9:22 p.m.
Sky_Render wrote: I used an intercooler from a Fuso diesel truck on mine. Nice and cheap at the local junkyard, though the plumbing necessitated removal of the A/C. But I'm a man, damn it. I don't need A/C.

Wow I recognize that car, more of us on here than I thought.

Pat
Pat Reader
12/6/12 7:19 a.m.

In reply to moparman76_69:

I'm finding the same thing...there are more turbo mopar guys here lurking than I thought.

Is the black Shadow still in Maryland? Last I recall seeing it, it was for sale in the Frederick or Hagerstown area.

Tony...the CSX progress looks great. For the intercooler, you can run a turbo 1 radiator (which is what it looks like you have in there anyway) with the stock AC condensor and a FMIC. You could drill the core support but it's not too hard to route the piping under the core. That does make the piping runs longer, but honestly, I have not seen any measureable gains or losses from long piping runs. Theoretically, the shorter the runs with the fewest bends would be ideal, but if we're talking 2 hp worth, it's really not worth worrying about, especially when you consider the gains to be had for a nice flowing/cooling FMIC over the stock core.

On the stock intercooler, they're OK at best. I've been into the 12's without any bottle help with the stock IC core, but they don't run consistent due to the heat soak. Flow is also an issue. I didn't measure backpressure at the time, but I used to drag race a GLHS regularly. It was mostly stock (stock head, stock turbo, stock IC) and was a reasonable low 13 second car at about 106 mph. My best pass was a 12.89, but the issue was that it was very inconsistent depending on temperature, how long of a cooldown between passes, etc. I then took two stock cores, cut the tanks off and built a dual stock core intercooler. With only that change...nothing else...the car immediately was a consistent 12.5 second car @ 110 mph with an occassional dip into the 12.4's if the stars and moon aligned just right. It picked up huge on the top end (flow) and was much more consistent (cooling). I had no where near the problems with knock either with the cooler charge temps, even in very hot ambient temps. Mounting the stock cooler up front may help slighty on the charge temp issues, but with the backpressure they cause, I don't think it's worth it.

Water/meth injection was mentioned earlier. I tried it and I have to say, I didn't like it. What I was able to do with it was run more boost on pump gas and lower charge temps a bit. My problem was that getting the mixture right was really difficult because the flow of the water/meth was inconsistent on shifts due to pump spool up and wind down time (sounds silly, but it's true....the turbo spooled faster than the pump on fast shifts and when you let off, the pump would wind down, which kept some water/meth flowing until pressure was bled off). I eventually got it to dyno the same whp numbers as I did on gas, but at the track it was slower, which I attributed to the inconsistency of the A/F ratio on shifts, which isn't an issue at the dyno...or maybe with a wussy automatic.

My opinion is a stock IC is good for a mostly stock car. If you're looking for more than 225 whp consistently and safely, get a nice FMIC on there. Well worth the effort and even with a mostly stock set up, being in the 270 whp range is not an unreasonable expectation.

Drop me a line if you have questions or need any parts. I've got plenty of crap lying around!

Pat

Sky_Render
Sky_Render HalfDork
12/6/12 8:05 a.m.
Pat wrote: Is the black Shadow still in Maryland? Last I recall seeing it, it was for sale in the Frederick or Hagerstown area.

I am the artist formerly known as "Dusty Duster."

A fellow drove down from Michigan to buy the car a little over a year ago. Last I heard, he blew up the motor.

That was my first ever car; I bought it in high school. I miss that little Duster.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
12/6/12 8:15 a.m.

I really appreciate all the help guys. There are a lot of Turbo Dodge/Mopar guys on here!

Pretty much all my turbo knowledge stems from my experience with my WRX's and turbocharging a Jeep engine late night in a parking lot at the $2010 Challenge. These turbocharged Mopars are interesting, and a little quirky, but I think it's pretty easy so far. I'm more worried about body work than anything else, because I am not that great at that (yet).

Would an intercooler water sprayer help on one of these? I know that with top mount setups (like Subarus have), they work pretty well. I was planning on making one for my 1st WRX on the cheap with irrigation nozzles and a windshield washer pump, but I never got around to it. I've seen them on front mounts, but I'm not sure if they are worth the trouble.

If I was going to do real water injection, I'd probably just throw nitrous at it instead.

Pat
Pat Reader
12/6/12 8:27 a.m.
SilverFleet wrote: I really appreciate all the help guys. There are a lot of Turbo Dodge/Mopar guys on here! Pretty much all my turbo knowledge stems from my experience with my WRX's and turbocharging a Jeep engine late night in a parking lot at the $2010 Challenge. These turbocharged Mopars are interesting, and a little quirky, but I think it's pretty easy so far. I'm more worried about body work than anything else, because I am not that great at that (yet). Would an intercooler water sprayer help on one of these? I know that with top mount setups (like Subarus have), they work pretty well. I was planning on making one for my 1st WRX on the cheap with irrigation nozzles and a windshield washer pump, but I never got around to it. I've seen them on front mounts, but I'm not sure if they are worth the trouble. If I was going to do real water injection, I'd probably just throw nitrous at it instead.

With the right cooler up front, a water sprayer really isn't necessary. The cooler I run in the ScAries (which I originally built for the Shadow), has seen 32+ psi on drag runs and the cool side is barely warmer than ambient hot days. I wouldn't bother with the added complication of a sprayer.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/11/13 11:39 a.m.

I'm at a standstill with the project right now because I need to borrow a welder to do the floors, so I'm thinking of turning my attention to the engine. I have not seen it run, but the former owner said that it ran well, but the clutch was smoked. The fuel rail was disconnected when I got it from him replacing it and losing interest, but there is another problem.

Right now, the main thing keeping it from running is the fact that the cam is slightly rusty. The motor is free, and has fluids still inside (which look good and are non-metallic), but I don't want to turn it over too much on the fear that I will destroy the cam, lifters, and bearings.The former owner left the valve cover off for about a year while it sat at his place, and a little bit of surface rust got on the lobes. I think some light sanding or Emory cloth/fine steel wool/metal brush should clean it right up. Probem is, I have no clue how to get it out of there.

Any tips/tricks/etc on removing the cam without majorly screwing things up?

moparman76_69
moparman76_69 HalfDork
1/11/13 11:53 a.m.

remove timing belt, pull the gear off the cam (optional), remove cam caps, lift out cam. I'm assuming it is a slider cam? If so get a 88-89 TBI roller cam and roller followers and put them in place of it.

Also I have a large front mount I'm selling if you're interested.

Cheap struts + MOAR LOWER = stock SRT fronts, rear cargo coils with coils cut.

Sky_Render
Sky_Render HalfDork
1/11/13 12:02 p.m.

As long as the cams aren't somehow "stuck" to the valves or retainers, I see no reason why you can't remove the camshaft normally.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/11/13 12:16 p.m.

Bear with me, guys. Would you believe I've only removed cams on V8-powered GM cars?

I've done cams on SBC's, an Olds 403, and my Pontiac 400. I've never done one on a OHC motor before.

And on buying parts... I'm flat broke right now. I need to sell more video game stuff and an Olds 455 to support buying anything else right now. I'm also chasing down a NOS hood and fenders from a local guy, which I desperately need to put the car back together.

Sky_Render
Sky_Render HalfDork
1/11/13 3:15 p.m.

Yeah, this motor almost as simple as a small-block Chevy. Seriously. As long as you understand turbochargers and basic engine management theory, you are set.

I would hazard a guess that removing the cam from an 8-valve turbo Dodge motor is actually easier than from the small-block.

And heck, you've even got a distributor and a coil!

Pat
Pat Reader
1/11/13 4:24 p.m.
moparman76_69 wrote: remove timing belt, pull the gear off the cam (optional), remove cam caps, lift out cam. I'm assuming it is a slider cam? If so get a 88-89 TBI roller cam and roller followers and put them in place of it.

Lower buck option: remove cam as George described and just polish the cam back up. If the cam and slider rockers are in reasonable shape, chuck it all back in with a LIGHT amount of RTV on the cam seals and fire it up. At least you can asses what you have before buying anything.

FWIW, the ScAries cam had a bit of rust on it at one point. I polished it up with some croakus cloth and its still in there now.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
1/12/13 9:46 a.m.

Cool! Hey, we are parting out a very rusty 1989 Shelby Daytona (we are keeping the engine, intercooler and some other bits for the GT6 project) but we have the wheels etc available if you or someone you know is interested. Have a perfect white hood with the offset bump, the ground effects etc.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/13/13 7:31 p.m.
Pat wrote:
moparman76_69 wrote: remove timing belt, pull the gear off the cam (optional), remove cam caps, lift out cam. I'm assuming it is a slider cam? If so get a 88-89 TBI roller cam and roller followers and put them in place of it.

Lower buck option: remove cam as George described and just polish the cam back up. If the cam and slider rockers are in reasonable shape, chuck it all back in with a LIGHT amount of RTV on the cam seals and fire it up. At least you can asses what you have before buying anything.

FWIW, the ScAries cam had a bit of rust on it at one point. I polished it up with some croakus cloth and its still in there now.

This is pretty much what I will do. I just want to see if the thing runs for now before throwing money at the car. If I do Challenge it, I would like to keep it in the Under $1k class. I think it's do-able, especially since I got the car so cheap. I have under $200 into the whole project as it sits right now, and I have most everything to put it back together.

I will be keeping my eyes peeled for a 1988-up cam setup though. There is an aging 1988 Shadow up the street from my house that gets more beat up every week, and I'm just waiting for the day it disappears from that driveway and into the junkyard.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/14/13 7:58 p.m.

Well, that was easy.

Here's the cam on my work bench:

As you can see, the cam lobes are rusty. I took some 220-grit sandpaper and some Mothers metal polish and scuffed the lobes lightly. The surface rust cleaned right up.

Here's the rest of the head:

No scoring on the bearing surfaces, so that's good news. The head is exceptionally clean. I have a sneaking suspicion that it's been off the car before.

This bothers me a little:

See that ridge? All the lobes are like that. Whatever, I'm running it until I can find a TBI setup.

Here it is after cleaning it with some brake clean and a rag:

Looks about as good as some new cams I've bought in the past!

... And back in the car:

The whole process took about an hour. BTW, the cam seals look brand new. I still have to torque everything down. I didn't because I have no clue what the specs are. Anyone know? I don't have a service manual for this car.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/24/13 10:06 a.m.

So, over the weekend, I scored a HUGE lot of parts for the CSX, including NOS front fenders, which I desperately needed, for a very Challenge-friendly price. To get those fenders, I also had to take a ton of other stuff, including:

-a 1989-90 Shadow ES NOS turbo bump hood

-some TII exhaust manifolds

-a TII intercooler

-a remanufactured but never used "under the hood" computer

-about 10 P-Body side mirrors, one is NOS

-a bunch of P-Body interior trim in nice shape

-at least 5 gauge clusters for various turbo Dodge cars

...And a ton more. Anyone interested in some Turbo Dodge stuff?

moparman76_69
moparman76_69 HalfDork
1/24/13 1:35 p.m.

The scoring is wear from the sliders. That might be a roller cam since that's the only time you should see wear on the cam like that.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/24/13 1:50 p.m.
moparman76_69 wrote: The scoring is wear from the sliders. That might be a roller cam since that's the only time you should see wear on the cam like that.

Is there any way to ID the cam from the casting numbers on it?

moparman76_69
moparman76_69 HalfDork
1/24/13 7:58 p.m.

Not that I know of. To my knowledge the sliders are supposed to wear because they are sintered iron.

Now that I think of it, that type of wear is normally from running a slider cam on roller followers, the opposite of what I said before.

Maybe its normal wear on a 25 year old cam.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/24/13 10:14 p.m.
moparman76_69 wrote: Not that I know of. To my knowledge the sliders are supposed to wear because they are sintered iron. Now that I think of it, that type of wear is normally from running a slider cam on roller followers, the opposite of what I said before. Maybe its normal wear on a 25 year old cam.

I was gonna say... It definitely didn't have roller lifters, rockers, or anything like that. My buddy's GLH's cam looks the same way. I still think this motor is hiding surprises. The head is way too clean inside for its age. Hopefully its good surprises.

Pat
Pat Reader
1/25/13 4:44 a.m.

That is definitely a slider cam...the lobes have a sharper profile and are wider than a roller cam. On the wear, i have seen a few that way. The sliders dont slide like they once did and it eats the cam.

Project is coming along nicely!

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/25/13 7:38 a.m.
Pat wrote: That is definitely a slider cam...the lobes have a sharper profile and are wider than a roller cam. On the wear, i have seen a few that way. The sliders dont slide like they once did and it eats the cam. Project is coming along nicely!

Well, if the cam is garbage, then there's my excuse to swap to the roller setup.

BTW, that 88 Shadow in my neighborhood has been relegated to the person's side yard and there was a trash barrel in front of it today. It's got one tire in the junkyard.

Pat
Pat Reader
1/27/13 6:58 a.m.

When going to a roller set up, just make sure you get an '88 cam. The '87's and down were all slider cams with square tooth sprockets. '88's were rollers with square tooth sprockets with same keyways, '89 and up were rollers with round tooth sprockets with slightly different keyway locations, which means if you bolt a square tooth sprocket to it you'll need offset cam keys or an adjustable sprocket to centerline the cam back to where it belongs.

Most seem to like to the TBI cams over the turbo cams. I tried one at one point and didn't notice any real difference. Since then, I haven't bothered hunting for a TBI and just used the turbo cams I had if they were in good shape.

Pat
Pat Reader
1/27/13 7:00 a.m.

One more thing...you want a cheap front mount intercooler? I have a big sucker that I ran on the ScAries for a while. Went 11.4's @ 120 with it before it started to be a bit of a restriction. Shoot me a PM if interested.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
1/29/13 3:06 p.m.
Pat wrote: One more thing...you want a cheap front mount intercooler? I have a big sucker that I ran on the ScAries for a while. Went 11.4's @ 120 with it before it started to be a bit of a restriction. Shoot me a PM if interested.

PM sent on that intercooler.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet Dork
3/1/13 3:19 p.m.

Quick Update:

Pseudosport helped weld in most of the driver's floor patch last weekend. No pics yet, but it worked out great, and after making the stress channels with the hammer and socket, I can report that there is no "tin can" effect! I still have some other small holes to patch, like the toe board corners, a small hole behind the driver's seat, and in the spare tire well. Once those are done, I need to install my outer rockers. After that, all the rust will be addressed and I will be starting in on the motor and transmission work the car needs to get running and driving.

I've been selling parts from that big haul I've posted earlier like a madman. I've made all my money back and then some, and still have more to sell. There were some really nice pieces in that haul!!! I'm hoping to get enough out of this stuff to do everything I need to the car and keep my costs low.

So far, with everything I've sold, I'm damn near close to making the car and all the parts I have FREE. In terms of a Challenge budget, I think my total is around $170ish spent including the cost of the car, because I bought some of the parts separately from what came with the car. All I need to buy at this point are a radiator and/or intercooler (possibly, may have a line on a stock radiator locally for short money), some engine gaskets, and tires. Pretty much everything else came with the car or on this parts haul, which I never thought was possible. Yes, I'm running Kumhos, just in case it makes a trip to Gainesville this fall.

Side Note: I have also noticed in the past few weeks that there have been multiple stories on some of the car blogs I read regularly (like The Truth About Cars) that people are starting to look back fondly on the Shadow ES and CSX. They are cool little cars, and working on this little guy has been fun.

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