1990 Troyer Modified Hillclimber

In my mind at least I am overdue to strip the car bare. Then I can repaint the frame/chassis and it will force me to check everything.   Bunch of hours but I find that I really want to do this every 5 years or so just to keep on top of everything.

That will be the perfect time to redo the hoses and I might also do a new oil pan.  A pan that can take a normal gasket would be wonderful.  Running lines would be easier with a pan that had the scavenge lines exiting on the right side of the car if that can be done while avoiding the starter.

759NRNG said:

Good luck this weekend........is 'super chicken' still a force to be reckoned with???? 

Thanks!  Not sure about the Super Chicken but it wasn't at Ascutney.  The new chicken hasn't been so super either.  Needs more development.  Some people say he needs to start over.  But there is always someone who will say that.  As I have said more than one person has looked at my car and said it is hopeless. :-)  I try not to judge.

In reply to KevinGale :

I stumbled on an older super modified that’s obviously been sitting for decades. The frame is bent pretty bad  but it’s got a Winters  quick change  (unknown condition) sweet steering rack, alcohol fuel cell can ( 40 ? Gal) bladder  is probably history  no Engine/trans.  Wheels  and Brakes (JFZ)) are there.  

What’s a fair price to offer?  What’s a price assuming nearly everything will need rebuilding and what if everything is claimed to be OK? 

I realize this isn’t what you do but what if you found it and had a Use for it?   

frenchyd said:

In reply to KevinGale :

I stumbled on an older super modified that’s obviously been sitting for decades. The frame is bent pretty bad  but it’s got a Winters  quick change  (unknown condition) sweet steering rack, alcohol fuel cell can ( 40 ? Gal) bladder  is probably history  no Engine/trans.  Wheels  and Brakes (JFZ)) are there.  

What’s a fair price to offer?  What’s a price assuming nearly everything will need rebuilding and what if everything is claimed to be OK? 

I realize this isn’t what you do but what if you found it and had a Use for it?   

It of course depends a bit on the car but you can usually find nice (not bent) rollers with a quick change for a few thousand.  I know of really nice modified that was used for hillclimbing that looks like new and is readly to run for $6500

(Here is the link (if it works) https://www.facebook.com/events/248737619197303/permalink/263046831099715/)

So for an older bent modified I probably wouldn't pay more than $2000 but again it depends on various factors.

And of course don't listen when the person selling it says how much money they have invested and how much the parts are worth.  The car above is probably $20,000 if you had to build it from scratch buying every part.  You never get your money back selling a race car that you have raced.  

Buttoned up and ready to load tomorrow for Okemo

frenchyd said:

In reply to KevinGale :

I stumbled on an older super modified that’s obviously been sitting for decades. The frame is bent pretty bad  but it’s got a Winters  quick change  (unknown condition) sweet steering rack, alcohol fuel cell can ( 40 ? Gal) bladder  is probably history  no Engine/trans.  Wheels  and Brakes (JFZ)) are there.  

What’s a fair price to offer?  What’s a price assuming nearly everything will need rebuilding and what if everything is claimed to be OK? 

I realize this isn’t what you do but what if you found it and had a Use for it?   

I was just rereading this and saw it says Super modified.  Super's are a whole different breed.  So I'm not sure about pricing on one of those. On the other hand I can't think it would be that much different and it's an even more limited market.  I think super's are super cool :-)  But without a transmission, clutch or reverse it is pretty limiting on the kinds of things you can do with it.    

In reply to KevinGale :I’ve been thinking of using the Bitsa off of it. The frame and body are really trashed. But I could take that quick change rear end and  steering rack plus brakes wheels and some suspension pieces and  build a Jaguar modified.  

That V12, a Seinz quick change dog ring 5 speed,  and various pieces I have  and wind up with a pretty unique sports car to race with.  

But before I go charging in I need to understand what that stuff would be worth.  The lady who owns it is a widow and I’d need to be fair to her and myself. 

This one has the open tube rear end like a sprint car uses  but that tube might be bent. If so can it be straightened or does it need to be replaced? 

Edit. I’ve been looking at various sites and while the used pieces are worth maybe $1500-2000 if sold separately  the chassis as it sits with unknowns probably is worth no more than $1000?   Am I being Fair?  

In reply to frenchyd :

If it is just parts then I wouldn't personally go over $1000.   The quick change could be worth that much but you are buying an unknown. For all you know the quick change has some major internal problem or all the calipers are seized and you ruin one or more fixing that.

I doubt that tube can be straightened. It is also a highly stressed part. Better not to risk it.

Check out the site RacingJunk.com  You can find most of the stuff for sale and whole cars.  It will help give you an idea what others are asking for the same parts.

In reply to KevinGale : Thank you, that is one of the sites I’ve used in the past to come up with my offer.  I spoke to the widow tonight and she must have some emotional attachment or some other reason for wanting to hang onto the chassis. 

Rather than insult her with what I’m sure would have been an offensive offer after listening to her list   of what parts originally cost I explained that I’d be looking at others before making an offer.  

I’m still excited by the idea and I know the last trans-am car Group 44 built used a Winters quick change in it.  I’ve spotted a set of side plates to convert the Winters from a straight axle to a swing arm axle.  So I can keep the IRS. All I’ll need to do is lengthen the studs so I can rigidly  mount the differential. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Emotional attachment and the shock of seeing how little the used stuff is worth when you know you paid lots of money for it new.  I've seen other people have the same reaction. To the point that after they get out of racing they can never sell their car and used parts.  They get offers but are always insulted by how low they are.   But they never get any higher offers.   You can't make the market move in your favor by wishing it so.  Often times the stuff is just left to rot until the person with the attachment dies.  Everyone would have been better off if the person just took the best offer they got and moved on.

When I get out my stuff will go at whatever low price it takes to move the stuff. I want it gone.  Hopefully most of it goes to some young kid trying to get a start racing. For that person I'll sell even lower.  Good way to pay it forward.

Quick update for Okemo.    The road is breaking up badly.  Lots of uneven pavement and little marbles from the pavement disintegrating.   This slowed things down on Saturday.  I was fastest with a 2:20 with Sherman right behind me.    Sunday the road was better after some nice people did some sweeping.   I ran a 2:19 and Sherman ran a slightly faster 2:19.  Next run I pushed harder, too hard! I spun the car going into turn 19. Sherm saw my marks and says I took a bad wide line and got into the marbles. He is not usually wrong about these things. Anyway I am sitting in the road thinking "no big deal", a combination of luck and skill (probably more the former) kept the car on the road.  Then bad news. I went to move the car I found I didn't have a clutch. The pedal went to the floor with no resistance and pumping  didn't help.

Something was stuck in the master cylinder and never unstuck.  I could get the car moving by starting it in first gear.   I thought about taking another run and starting the car at the line on the starter. Two things worked against that happening.  One was that I was fighting a bit of a cold.  I hadn't felt well all day and my head wasn't really in the game.  Two was that with a very slow start off starter I'd have to run even faster to beat Sherman.  It just felt like a bad idea so I retreated to the motorhome and slept for two hours.  The sleep didn't help that much the cold just kept getting worse.  Slept bad last night and not feeling good today.

The master cylinder had given some warning. There have been a few times when it went to the floor once but a pump always restored it.  I hadn't really figured out why it was happening but it was infrequent and I hadn't worried about it too much.  When the car spun I'm pretty sure by reflex I stepped on the clutch. In fact I probably stomped on it really hard. My guess is that finally caused it to failed completely.

Looks like Wilwood doesn't make a rebuild kit for the clutch master cylinder I have.  They have a very similar newer model that does have a rebuild kit. So I think I will buy that one so I at least have the option of rebuilding it in the future.

Jesse O'Brien shot a few cool vids.

Bring down for group B. I'm in it but it is cool because you can see some of the variety of cars (and a motorcycle).

Going by Check 2 

Going by check 6

KevinGale said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Emotional attachment and the shock of seeing how little the used stuff is worth when you know you paid lots of money for it new.  I've seen other people have the same reaction. To the point that after they get out of racing they can never sell their car and used parts.  They get offers but are always insulted by how low they are.   But they never get any higher offers.   You can't make the market move in your favor by wishing it so.  Often times the stuff is just left to rot until the person with the attachment dies.  Everyone would have been better off if the person just took the best offer they got and moved on.

When I get out my stuff will go at whatever low price it takes to move the stuff. I want it gone.  Hopefully most of it goes to some young kid trying to get a start racing. For that person I'll sell even lower.  Good way to pay it forward.

I like the idea of pay it forward.  It was a little surprising since clearly she had no interest in the car but was basing her opinion  on comments her late husband had said earlier to her.  

But I completely understand attachment.  Due to a many decades long involvement with my Black Jack spl  I wasn’t willing to sell it when I received an insanely  high offer. With the buyer willing, heck eager to go higher.  

Less than 10 years later the best offer was nearly $200,000 less than his starting offer.  

KG, I'm thrilled  that FrenchyD has found this and is sharing his thoughts on all things H'climbing,

Thou he (FD) wont admit it ....I'm thinkin; he's workin' a V12 XJS for possible H'climbing.

Winters are HARSH in the NE.and resort access roads are probably low on the 'HOT patch' schedule

come springtime....

This weekend......no trees.....no boulders....no slow slides down the mountain.....kickin' arse until the 'SPIN'

home to tell the story ......ALL GOOD!!!!

759NRNG said:

KG, I'm thrilled  that FrenchyD has found this and is sharing his thoughts on all things H'climbing,

Thou he (FD) wont admit it ....I'm thinkin; he's workin' a V12 XJS for possible H'climbing.

Winters are HARSH in the NE.and resort access roads are probably low on the 'HOT patch' schedule

come springtime....

This weekend......no trees.....no boulders....no slow slides down the mountain.....kickin' arse until the 'SPIN'

home to tell the story ......ALL GOOD!!!!

I’m sorry. Hill climbing isn’t on my radar.  I’m in the Midwest.  Things are pretty flat out here.  

frenchyd said:

Less than 10 years later the best offer was nearly $200,000 less than his starting offer.  

 

Ouch! 

KG, besides the clutch slave mstr cylndr....is everything 'else' on the up and up? Or are we talking

engine pull to MAKE sure??

In reply to 759NRNG :

The engine is fine and I'm pretty sure there isn't a problem with the internal slave cylinder.  So it should just be the master cylinder which is an fairly easy swap out.  Bleeding it from under the car is the only pain but I figured out a better way to do that last time with the new remote bleeder line I added.

I might not have made it clear but I started and ran the car after the clutch problem.  I drove it down the hill I just had to start it on the starter in gear.  Then later I did it a few more times to get it on and off the trailer.

Wow, great thread here, I can't believe I've missed it!

Congratulations on all your success- it looks to be well-earned; front-of-pack racing is serious business.

Good luck in the future, I hope the clutch issue is easy to sort-

damen

badwaytolive said:

Wow, great thread here, I can't believe I've missed it!

Congratulations on all your success- it looks to be well-earned; front-of-pack racing is serious business.

Good luck in the future, I hope the clutch issue is easy to sort-

damen

Thanks, I've had some success and yes there was lots of hard work involved. (Isn't there always!)  Still if makes me uncomfortable to toot my own horn too much.  I mostly see all my limitations. I've raced against people who are wizard level car builders and drivers. If I sometimes beat them it is more do to with persistence and my being willing to throw power at the problem.

I have some strengths:

I'm detail orientated (somewhat of a perfectionist) so spending time getting stuff working is actually interesting.  

I'm able to suppress my fear of throwing a big powerful car up the hill even after crashing it multiple times.  I still feel the fear. For example on race days I can never eat anything for breakfast because I feel nauseous. Sometimes that even starts a day or two before the event.  And in general once the race day is done I always suddenly feel so much better as the stress disappears. 

I got lucky with a car type. I fell in love with Modifieds pretty much by accident. Lucky for me you can make one go really fast without much difficulty.  I race against many people who I believe are much better drivers. But most of them choose to race less powerful cars that can't really compete for FTD. I mean if your dream race car is a Volkswagen GTI you can have a lot of fun and go fast.  But unless you are willing to Frankenstein the car you are probably not going to be racing for the fastest time of the day very often.  But at the same time I totally understand picking a car you want to race and sticking with it. At the amateur racing level you have to do all the work yourself and who wants to work on a car they don't like. 

I'm willing to make racing a very high priority.  My life is scheduled around the NEHA events. I haven't missed going to an event in 25 years.  Many of those I didn't have a car working and I just showed up to work. But when I have a car I really try hard to get it to the event. If you want to win you have to show up.  I'm willing to tell people that I won't go to their wedding if it is on a race weekend. I once told my boss that either he could give me a day off I needed for racing or he could yell at me later when I didn't come in.  (Because either way I was going racing and I was ready to find a new job if it came to that.)  My family and friends know not to schedule anything on a race weekend.  Even distant cousins I haven't seen in many years know this. :-)

Shoot KG I now know not to invite you and the missus over for fondue (who still does that???)  next weekend 

More boring (to me) in-car video from Okemo.

Pulled the bad clutch master cylinder out today. The new one is on the way.   Looks like old one has been leaking a little for a while. The paint behind it was eaten away.  I got a fresh coat on that that is drying now.

This morning was looking for a new dry sump oil pan.  I won't be replacing it until the winter tear down but I was thinking about it.   The current pan won't seal with a gasket and that is a pain and it cost me making it to race this year.   Time to get rid of the pain of hours of scraping away RTV when I have to pull it for any reason. 

 I also want to move the scavenge lines from the left side of the pan to the right side.  This will make the left side less of a snake's nest of lines. I can run the two scavenge lines around the front of the motor.  I might even be able to use standard fittings on both instead of the custom bent one I have to use on one of the lines.

There is one other benefit of having the scavenge lines exit the pan on the right side. The pan can have a lower depth since there are no lines going across the pan. The crank naturally throws oil to the right side so my current pan actually pulls oil from the right side and has to run lines across the pan to exit on the left side.  Exiting on the right side eliminates the lines across the pan.   Canton shows the left side exit pan like I currently have is 1/4" deeper than their pan that has the lines exit on the right side.  1/4" isn't a lot but it does give me 1/4" more ground clearance for the oil pan.  Since the pan is one of the lowest parts of the car extra clearance is welcome.

Here is the pan I am looking at.  It is a Canton 12-101