1990 Troyer Modified Hillclimber

Mounting tires tonight.   I'm getting better at this. It no longer feels like I am wrestling the tires off and on.  Sometimes I can get a tire on in just a few minutes.  I went too fast at one point and realized I had mounted the last tire in the wrong direction of rotation so I had to dismount and remount that one.  Yes the Hoosier slicks have tire rotation direction arrows on the sidewalls.    I was told that it is to prevent separation of the rubber from the tire.. I was also told that once the tire was used once then it didn't matter anymore.  But I have no idea if either of those things are actually true.

I once had my fronts swapped so both were running backwards.  I crashed out that day.  No sure if it was related.  I only noticed that they were swapped because of the crash.

Ascutney report,  First the picture that matters the most.

No Super Chicken after his crash at Burke.  Sherman ran but he hates Ascutney and was just protecting his lead in King of the Hill points.

The car ran well now that it is running on all 8 cylinders.   At Burke I noticed the car sounded a bit off and it was heating more than normal.  My wife told me the car sounded like there was something wrong.  But it was hot and I just didn't feel like pulling things apart.  She says I shouldn't ignore her!

With all the work on the trailer I just never got to look at the problem.  When I started the car on Friday to load it on the rebuilt trailer I immediately noticed valve train noise. Something was really loose. So I drove back into the garage after warming up the engine to do valve lash.  What I found was that the number 8 exhaust rocker had fallen off the pushrod.  So I was running at Burke on 7 cylinders.  The end of the push rod was a little beat up but I decided it would probably be fine.  After I adjusted valve lash the motor sounded much better.

The rebuilt trailer had no problems on the way to Ascutney (or on the way home).  I arrived early and the car breezed through tech inspection.   Everyone wanted to comment on my tires that still had stickers on them.

The car liked the softer compound on rears. It was fast both days.  The rears didn't overheat. I did bottom out a couple more times. So for next season I probably need to raise the ride height in the rear to compensate for the smaller tires.

I found another 2:43 on Sunday.   I've run a 2:43 at Ascutney seven times. And going back to 2011 I have run between a 2:42 and a 2:45 at least once every year.   The car felt really fast this time and I was sure if I wanted to push that I could have run a personal best but as I was already winning the event by a large margin there just wasn't a reason so push that hard.  With the softer rear tires my guess is that with a mistake free banzai run, a high 2:39 is not impossible.  The question is if I can do mistake free where I also go all out rolling the dice and hope they don't land on the wrong numbers?

Congrats!!!! Well done ,what's the next event?

759NRNG said:

Congrats!!!! Well done ,what's the next event?

Philo the weekend of Oct 20-21.  That is the last event of this season.  I expect Sherman to beat me at Philo since he always does. :-)   I already congratulated him on his pending King of the Hill title.

Ordered a new set of B&J Quick change gears.  Set # 7K  24/21 teeth, Part # 917-14-7K.

I love the B & J crown cut gears and I pretty much refuse to use anything else. They are light, strong and mesh smoothly without wasting energy generating lots of noise and heat like most quick change gear sets.

This set will give me a 5.55 rear gear for Philo.  Combined with the new 26" rears that will raise the average RPM several hundred RPM and put me close to red line at the fastest point in 4th gear near finish.  It may require shifting a couple more times or it may not.

I will have to shift to 4th before check 1 after the start but it may be just as fast to leave it in fourth for check 1 instead of going back to 3rd. If I do go back to 3rd I will then have to go back to 4th before the rock.   Given that I usually never have enough traction coming out of check 1 I think I can probably pull 4th and just use more throttle to achieve the same acceleration.  Then I won't have the short shift to 4th before the rock.  I hate that shift anyway since the car in in 4th for just a second or two.  So it is 3rd to 4th and back to 3rd in seconds.  If I can stay in fourth coming out of check one then I only have the 4th to 3rd going into the rock.  Can't avoid that since the rock is a really slow tight turn and the end of a straight and followed by a straight.  Need 4th on the straight going into the rock and I need 3rd for the best acceleration out of the rock to take advantage of the next straight.

I also put some thought into picking this set to use the flip side for Okemo.  That will give me a 4.25 instead of the usual 3.93 I normally run.   This will require two more shifts. I will have to go up to 4th after check 1 before going into the woods and then back to 3rd.  But for that shift up and down I can raise the average RPM by about 700 RPM and overall it should put the car more in the power band (which is pretty wide but I'm optimizing).  With the old transmission I might not have thought this was worth it. With the Jerico having a couple extra shifts between 3rd and 4th isn't that big a deal.

In reply to KevinGale :

I’ve always wanted to combine a quick change rear end with a quick change gear box.  I had a Halibrand  but used a standard 4 Speed. When  I got the Seinz I didn’t have the funds to do the switch over. Then sold the Halibtand when I sold the Blackjack. 

Now I have another car to race I’m looking for an affordable quick change to compliment the smSeinz  which is a quick change. I can change transmission gears at the race track in about 30 minutes and about 20 in the shop.  

I’ve built up several 2-3-4  gear sets.   1st is as low as Possible to get rolling in the pits. And 5th is 1-1   That allows me to keep the engine on the peak of the power curve coming out of various corners.  

Combined with a quick change it would be really easy to dial in the power band.   Since the cams are on top of a Jaguar it would be easy to do the quick change cam thing too. I’ll bet you could change both cams inside 30 minutes or so. If you need a flatter power band grab one set. More peak power grab another!  Since clearance is set by shims you wouldn’t even have to adjust the valves!  

While Ive changed tire sizes etc. that usually results in some trade offs in handling or too low a ground clearance etc.  

In reply to frenchyd :

I can see where being able to change gears in the transmission would be helpful. My Jerico has lots of ratios available but I have no idea how hard it is to swap them out.

In reply to KevinGale :

The Jerico has dog rings like the Seinz  but I don’t know if it’s set up for quick gear changes. 

It also has only 4 speeds so by nature they are going to have to be slightly wider apart than a non overdrive 5 speed.  

This is really playing with the fine edge of tuning and race preparation. 

I learned how this can help working on Can Am cars with their quick change Hewland gearboxes.  Since we didn’t have to drop the driveshaft it was ten minutes to change gears rather than the 30 I take. 

What oil do you use in your Jericho and quick change? I’ve tried both a 140 weight climbing gear oil and a synthetic.  To be honest I don’t know which is better

In reply to frenchyd :

Most of the time I only want two gears, sometimes three.  Of course I purposefully picked the motor design so it doesn't really care much what gear it is in. I ran Ascutney once with a 4th gear launch and thus never shifted the whole hill. :-)   

In general the Jerico has been fantastic.  I love it. Wish I had done it years ago.

I run Mobil 1 75W-90 in the Jerico. That was what came in the instructions and it happened to be the same stuff I run in the quick change so it keeps things simple.

In reply to KevinGale :

Given the wide band of power your engine is built for that makes sense. Road racing on the other hand especially at the big tracks like Elkhart Lake demands every gear in the box and some corners you wish for more. 

I noticed it especially when I put a pair of peak horsepower camshafts in my Jaguar.  Power went up significantly but instead of coming on at 3500rpm it came on at 4500 rpm.  It actually slowed my lap times down even though I could pull a taller gear in the quick change. ( faster top speed by at least 10 mph ) I’d come out of tight turns and be flat until it could get to 4500rpm that’s where being able to switch gears around would really have made a difference. 

Have you ever thought about running a track like say Lime Rock?  Short track like that would play to your strengths, brutal acceleration with relatively low top speed? 

In reply to frenchyd :

Can't say I've thought about tracks much.  I'm a bit strange in that all I have really done is hillclimb.  I've never done an Auto-X or a track day. The only time I have ever even driven on something that is not a hill was the two times the club did a 1 mile time trial on a quarter mile circle track.  It was of course very steeply banked and that was a blast. First event I ever won. It was like the car was made for going in a circle. LOL.  But I'm pretty happy with my hillclimb niche. There are more than enough events to keep me busy and I love the hillclimb family. And it doesn't get boring.

frenchyd said:

In reply to KevinGale :

I noticed it especially when I put a pair of peak horsepower camshafts in my Jaguar.  Power went up significantly but instead of coming on at 3500rpm it came on at 4500 rpm.  It actually slowed my lap times down even though I could pull a taller gear in the quick change. ( faster top speed by at least 10 mph ) I’d come out of tight turns and be flat until it could get to 4500rpm that’s where being able to switch gears around would really have made a difference. 

That totally makes sense.  People ask why my pulling a higher gear doesn't hurt my times because even with a wide power band I still spend less time near the peak.  But for me it is about traction.  If I gear down then I just spin out of the slower corners.  Gearing up usually means I still can't just put my foot in it instantly when I get past the apex but I can do it sooner and I spend less time trying to manage wheelspin.  So basically I am traction limited out of slow corners and I can hook up better in a higher gear..

Even outside the slow corners I sometimes have to be careful about applying full throttle in lower gears.  I've gone off into the bushes because I tried to keep full throttle in 3rd over patch of bad pavement.  In 4th I can do it in that spot with no problem.   So If I gear down it is a bit faster if I am very careful about managing traction everywhere.  If I gear up I have to pay attention to that a bit less.

A really good electronic traction controls system would probably improve my times at most hills.  I've thought about it. But there is a part of me that likes the fact that I'm doing all this with no driver assists. I don't even have ABS brakes.  

I think that no driver assists is the long term direction for racing.   We are rapidly getting to the point where autonomous race cars will be faster than any human.   At that point it just doesn't make sense for humans to use any assists since we already know the computers are faster. What we care about is which human is faster.  So it should be unassisted. So no ABS, Traction/Stability Control, basically no fly by wire where a computer is changing the outputs based on it's own logic.

In reply to KevinGale :

You make sense! After all, racing is about competition between people not between systems.  

That’s why horse racing survived even though cars were faster.   

On the other hand with a more narrow power band ( but higher peak) when you pull a lower gear you wouldn’t be as traction limited because at lower RPM you would have less power to break the tires loose but more power once you are hooked up.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to KevinGale :

On the other hand with a more narrow power band ( but higher peak) when you pull a lower gear you wouldn’t be as traction limited because at lower RPM you would have less power to break the tires loose but more power once you are hooked up.  

Yes that is a good point.I have thought about that. If I put another engine in the car. I may just go that route.  I'd be willing to give up a bit on the low end to get some more peak.  I'd also go with an aluminum block which would be about 90 lbs out of the car would would help offset a bit of that low end power loss.

Just like every other racer I want more power!

In reply to KevinGale :

Power costs money! How much do you want?  Big smiley face.! 

Wouldnt it be more cost effective to build an aluminum LS style motor then to buy and build an aluminum small block?   

I suppose motor mounts, headers etc. etc. would add up.  

I'm just popping in to say that I've been enjoying this thread.  I feel connected to it in two different ways. 

I used to live in Upstate NY and I've been to most of the locations that you're racing but never knew when I lived there that there were hill climbs on those mountains. 

I have a soft spot for Troyer Modifieds having driven one back in the '80s the way they were originally intended; all crossed up sideways slinging dirt towards the fence.

In reply to KevinGale :

Actually being the cheapskate I am I’d be tempted to just buy a decent used  aluminum LS  and put a pair of Chinese turbo’s on them and swap camshafts to one that pushes power towards the higher revs.  Over and above the cost of the engine you’d have maybe $400 for the turbo’s and a dry sump oil pan. 

But you’d have 650+ horsepower if not a whole lot more using alcohol. ( you are using Alcohol aren’t you? At least around here they do) 

In reply to APEowner :

Glad you are enjoying it!   

In reply to frenchyd :

My engine builder has talked about alcohol more than once.  I don't think I will go the turbo route but there is huge power available there. I like being able to pick on all the other turbo guys after they have had one melt-down or another 

Right now I'm not even running pure race fuel.  I mix 50/50 with 93 pump gas to cut down on fuel costs.   Mixed with 112 leaded race fuel gives me more than enough octane for my 11.43:1 motor.

KevinGale said:

In reply to frenchyd :

My engine builder has talked about alcohol more than once.  I don't think I will go the turbo route but there is huge power available there. I like being able to pick on all the other turbo guys after they have had one melt-down or another 

Right now I'm not even running pure race fuel.  I mix 50/50 with 93 pump gas to cut down on fuel costs.   Mixed with 112 leaded race fuel gives me more than enough octane for my 11.43:1 motor.

 

Then you want E85. 85% ethanol. ( the stuff in beer wine etc.) that’s 114 octane. 15% Gasoline    $1.99 a gallon near me.  Local prices vary as does alcohol content. 

That should add about 10% more power while running cooler and cleaning the combustion chamber.  

You could go to Methanol  with 116 octane. In 55 gallon drums it’s about $3.00 a gallon but please be careful , extremely careful. Unlike ethanol, methanol is really nasty stuff. 

All the bad things you’ve heard or read about alcohol,  they were probably talking about Methanol. 

Indy cars now use 100% ethanol  while NASCAR uses 30% ethanol. Only NHRA uses methanol and watch all the protective gear they put on to refuel .  

As far as turbo’s and melt downs, the guys reaching for the moon, getting the last bit of power out, that’s when most melt downs occur. Too much boost, too much timing, too much compression, too much advance.  

That’s why you run a stock motor with only 9-1 compression. The one trick you must do is double the ring end gaps. If you’re running .015 go to 030. ( yes you can even reuse the stock rings if they are OK ) 

Yes you won’t make 1000 horsepower but you’ll be a solid 40% over stock. And the engine will last long enough for you to get comfortable  with how to drive it.  

In reply to frenchyd :

On issue is from what I hear you pretty much want to drain the system of E85 between events and flush it with gasoline.   Sure that is doable but it's a pain.  I know more than one hillclimb guy started using the stuff and stopped because it was just too much of a pain to flush the whole fuel system after each race.

In reply to KevinGale :

You are confusing methanol with ethanol.  

Methanol is nasty nasty stuff that yes has to be drained every night, etc etc etc 

Ethanol  is in beer wine and E85. Don’t leave it  over winter  or at least not without Stabil.  It’s ok for a month or so. 

Yes you will have to go up in jet size, a lot. Depending on  the percentage of ethanol   In the E85 you may need to go as much as 60% richer ( but only if it really is 85% ethanol which most pump gas isn’t. 

Pump gas will be between 30 & 55% ethanol . it’s real easy to tell what you buy,  call Kinzler fuel injection and get the test kit.  

I bought mine about 50 years ago for about $35 so I don’t know what they cost today. 

Mate you running a carb?  Or fuel ⛽️ injection?  Either case keep the Jets you have and just buy another set the same size and do the math.  

Or do what I do. I flow test the jet. Just fill  a bottle with 10 cc’s of gas time how long it takes to flow out then fill the same bottle with 16 cc’s and keep drilling bigger until that much flows out in the same time as 10cc’s did. 

Nice thing about alcohol over gasoline is it’s not as fussy about getting things exactly right.  A little rich and power only drops a little bit. A little lean and because of the cooling nature of alcohol not as much damage occurs.   

Too rich and the engine starts feeling lazy. Too lean and it will bark like a duck. 

ps 

i just checked Kinzler’s site Now they want $45 for the hydrometer and $24 for the calibrated test tube. 

Since you can buy a new sensor for about $34 on EBay and pull one off a flex fuel car in a junkyard for $6-8 

I’d think there are cheaper ways of testing your fuel. 

Did you have to adjust anything due to it being offset, if so what.

How much was the original vehichle.

In reply to frenchyd :

If I'm confusing E85 with methanol I'm certainly not the only one. :-)   I've been told and I've read that the E85 absorbs too much water sitting in the car for a month between races.  Is that wrong?