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svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 1:50 p.m.
nocones said:

But that's not really how tires work.  You will have half the normal force on each tire.  At the same temperature, camber, and slip angle they will generate marginally more then half the amount of traction as a single tire.   This is becasue tire traction is not quite linear with increasing load.   

But you will be hauling around ~150 more lbs (90lbs of rim, 10lbs of dualy adapters, 60 lbs of tire) of rotational mass

And in cornering either your car will be 630mm wider, or you will have 25% higher rear weight transfer (Assume 60" TW before duallys added inboard).   Wider track impacts laptimes the severity of that impact is dependant on course, and increased rear weight transfer reduces overall grip at that end again because tire grip is not linear with incrasing load.  

And you will be unlikely to have equal temperatures in the tires compared to singles unless the vehicle is very heavy.    

This concept could work if the tire widths were optimized for vehicle weight distribution and the entire car designed to accommodate the unique design.  The Nissan Deltawing worked (We can argue later about how effective it was) and it's rear tires were almost 3 times wider then the fronts.   But the Deltawing looked nothing like a normal car with dual rear tires, nor was it designed like one.  It really was more like a 3 wheeler in dynamic design.  

There was a tire company that actually developed dual individual tires as a concept but ultimately determined that the weight was not worth any gains.  

Low contact pressure is a real thing.  I've seen 2WD Dualy's get stuck in level wet grass.  

The end result if executed well will look unique and certainly turn heads in a STANCEBOI sort of way but will not offer a performance advantage over properly selected individual tires.  

Then why are commercial trucks and tow trucks everywhere not four-wheel drive?

Dead_Sled
Dead_Sled HalfDork
11/20/20 2:03 p.m.

In reply to svxsti :

Because they don't leave the pavement and aren't traction limited on pavement?  

You do understand the primary advantage of a dually rear end is increased load carrying capability, not traction, right?

nocones
nocones UltraDork
11/20/20 2:28 p.m.

In reply to svxsti :

Yes.  Heavy trucks use multiple wheels to improve load capacity.  For the longest time tires could not be manufactured to handle high speed (relatively) operation at high loads without significant durability issues.   That is changing with the "super singles" that replace a traditional dual tire with a ~180% wider single tire.  These are popular despite their higher costs because of reduced rolling resistance.  

Traction limits as have been pointed out are not a large concern for most on highway heavy equipment.  Cornering loads for heavy equipment are very low.  That said semi trucks rarely understeer into things.  Generally they jacknife indicating a loss of lateral grip on the 8 driven wheels.  

The point is that it's not just a matter of more wheels = more traction.  Even in the conditions where race cars have explored extra wheels it has not simply been the case of adding wheels for traction.  The Tyrell 6 wheeler was in search of low aero resistance of smaller tires.  

 

And just to be clear I'm not trying to pile on you here.  I clearly enjoy crazy ideas as much if not more the the next guy.  I've done many things just to try them.   A performance dually would be hilarious fun.  I would probably use a more modest rear tire to give the vehicle the best chance at good dynamic performance.  A pair of 255's with 315 up front would look just as crazy but could be put on 8" wide RFP1s that weigh 17 lbs.

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 2:35 p.m.

Well I still think dually is lighter and more balanced than AWD for 1000hp, unless anyone can suggest an AWD tranny that can handle 1000hp reliably.

Jesse Ransom (FFS)
Jesse Ransom (FFS) UltimaDork
11/20/20 2:42 p.m.

In reply to svxsti :

That doesn't make sense.

You just said "I think X is better than Y for condition A, unless there's a Y that works for condition A."

I think sausages are lighter and softer than steel wheels for rolling 10-ton bricks over, unless anyone can suggest steel wheels that can handle 10-ton bricks.

Talk to Bugatti. Or Quaife. Or XTrac. Or SADEV.

Forgive me for feeding the trolls, sausages or otherwise.

Indy "Nub" Guy
Indy "Nub" Guy PowerDork
11/20/20 3:09 p.m.

In reply to Jesse Ransom (FFS) :

I swore to myself that I was not going to post in this thread again, but dang it, I just had to let you know that I literally laughed out loud when I read your post.  yes thanks 

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr PowerDork
11/20/20 3:15 p.m.
svxsti said:

Well I still think dually is lighter and more balanced than AWD for 1000hp, unless anyone can suggest an AWD tranny that can handle 1000hp reliably.

If rear grip could be improved by just going to wider tires, all high horsepower cars would just go with wider rear tires and leave the awd weight off the vehicle.

 

There is trade off when adding tire width.

 

As far as I know, the only reason to go to multiple rear tires is for load capacity.

 

If somebody is blowing off sticky 315mm rear tires, I would think that is more about the driver being hamfisted, not a lack of rear traction that could be improved by wider tires...

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe PowerDork
11/20/20 3:25 p.m.

I have a two sets of seriously nice 19x14 inch wheels I could sell you to run all around with 355 slicks. But I want at least a Boxster based kit car in trade. 

 

 

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 3:30 p.m.
Jesse Ransom (FFS) said:

In reply to svxsti :

That doesn't make sense.

You just said "I think X is better than Y for condition A, unless there's a Y that works for condition A."

I think sausages are lighter and softer than steel wheels for rolling 10-ton bricks over, unless anyone can suggest steel wheels that can handle 10-ton bricks.

Talk to Bugatti. Or Quaife. Or XTrac. Or SADEV.

Forgive me for feeding the trolls, sausages or otherwise.

Apparently my sarcasm was mistaken for fact, there is no reliable AWD for 1000hp, even an Allison is only good for 400hp.

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 3:37 p.m.
wvumtnbkr said:
svxsti said:

Well I still think dually is lighter and more balanced than AWD for 1000hp, unless anyone can suggest an AWD tranny that can handle 1000hp reliably.

If rear grip could be improved by just going to wider tires, all high horsepower cars would just go with wider rear tires and leave the awd weight off the vehicle.

 

There is trade off when adding tire width.

 

As far as I know, the only reason to go to multiple rear tires is for load capacity.

 

If somebody is blowing off sticky 315mm rear tires, I would think that is more about the driver being hamfisted, not a lack of rear traction that could be improved by wider tires...

Actually traction is improved by taller tires, not by wider. I also looked at some tall dot drag tires, but didnt want it to be a drag only truck.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
11/20/20 5:15 p.m.

It took some serious searching,  but I found a  tranny capable of holding 1,000 horsepower.  cheeky

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 5:17 p.m.

Now that made ME LOL! I guess I am always trying to make alot work.

jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter)
jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) Reader
11/20/20 5:32 p.m.

What I like about this forum is that actions matter more than words, what you are actually doing to you car (tow rig, boat, mini-bike, garage, etc.) is worth more than what you’re “gonna do” to it, and you literally can’t post enough pictures of it; everyone is hungry to know what everyone else is doing and eager to help each other.

 I also like the utter lack of flame wars, and how y’all are kind even towards lurkers and trolls.  Even canoes get boxed with kid gloves here. It’s a nice place to be and it keeps me coming back.

@svxsti you should really start a legit build thread of something you’re working on now, something you’re turning wrenches on regularly and consistently working toward a goal. All this talking you’re doing just isn’t going to get a lot of traction here. 

karplus2
karplus2 Reader
11/20/20 6:08 p.m.
New York Nick said:

 

I've seen 2WD Dualy's get stuck in level wet grass.  

I've done it, with a dually and with a semi. It is shockingly eay to stick a semi in wet grass. Also fairly easy to remove if you don't sink in...

Raises hand...me too. Had a 98 Chevy 3500 dually with a 454 at my old job. I LOVED that truck but got it stuck constantly. It also spun the tires on dry pavement way more than I would have expected.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr PowerDork
11/20/20 6:21 p.m.
svxsti said:
wvumtnbkr said:
svxsti said:

Well I still think dually is lighter and more balanced than AWD for 1000hp, unless anyone can suggest an AWD tranny that can handle 1000hp reliably.

If rear grip could be improved by just going to wider tires, all high horsepower cars would just go with wider rear tires and leave the awd weight off the vehicle.

 

There is trade off when adding tire width.

 

As far as I know, the only reason to go to multiple rear tires is for load capacity.

 

If somebody is blowing off sticky 315mm rear tires, I would think that is more about the driver being hamfisted, not a lack of rear traction that could be improved by wider tires...

Actually traction is improved by taller tires, not by wider. I also looked at some tall dot drag tires, but didnt want it to be a drag only truck.

Nope the overall amount of grip wouldn't change. Contact patch shape changes.  Taller tires would help with straight line and hurt lateral grip.

 

You already said you weren't interested in drag racing..  my point was that wider tires don't help cornering grip and traction grip after a certain point.

 

So, let me reiterate....  dually tires are not a great idea and won't solve the issue that you implied you were trying to solve.

 

Somehow, you are concerned with "forward" traction in an autocross.  

 

What exactly is the problem you are trying to solve?  Forward grip or lateral grip?  Or something else entirely?

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 6:44 p.m.
jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) said:

What I like about this forum is that actions matter more than words, what you are actually doing to you car (tow rig, boat, mini-bike, garage, etc.) is worth more than what you’re “gonna do” to it, and you literally can’t post enough pictures of it; everyone is hungry to know what everyone else is doing and eager to help each other.

 I also like the utter lack of flame wars, and how y’all are kind even towards lurkers and trolls.  Even canoes get boxed with kid gloves here. It’s a nice place to be and it keeps me coming back.

@svxsti you should really start a legit build thread of something you’re working on now, something your turning wrenches on regularly and consistently working toward a goal. All this talking you’re doing just isn’t going to get a lot of traction here. 

Sorry I dont turn wrenches, I'm an ahole driver. The guys that work my projects really dont like anyone walking into their work area, especially taking pictures. I really have been better things to do with my time. This is has been a great way to kill time waiting in all these covid lines though. Yeah, I like to shop, getting a maniped now.

dherr (Forum Supporter)
dherr (Forum Supporter) Dork
11/20/20 6:53 p.m.
svxsti said:
jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) said:

What I like about this forum is that actions matter more than words, what you are actually doing to you car (tow rig, boat, mini-bike, garage, etc.) is worth more than what you’re “gonna do” to it, and you literally can’t post enough pictures of it; everyone is hungry to know what everyone else is doing and eager to help each other.

 I also like the utter lack of flame wars, and how y’all are kind even towards lurkers and trolls.  Even canoes get boxed with kid gloves here. It’s a nice place to be and it keeps me coming back.

@svxsti you should really start a legit build thread of something you’re working on now, something your turning wrenches on regularly and consistently working toward a goal. All this talking you’re doing just isn’t going to get a lot of traction here. 

Sorry I dont turn wrenches, I'm an ahole driver. The guys that work my projects really dont like anyone walking into their work area, especially taking pictures. I really have been better things to do with my time. This is has been a great way to kill time waiting in all these covid lines though. Yeah, I like to shop, getting a maniped now.

So why did you post to a "Builds and Project Cars" forum? This is for people to discuss their projects, not brag or talk trash about stuff they want to do or might do. There are other forums for that. The people here are all involved with their projects and share their knowledge and skills freely. This is not the forum for cell phone screen shots of supposed models you are dating and pictures of other peoples cars that you say you own or could own. Not to be rude but it is time to move on.

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 6:53 p.m.
wvumtnbkr said:
svxsti said:
wvumtnbkr said:
svxsti said:

Well I still think dually is lighter and more balanced than AWD for 1000hp, unless anyone can suggest an AWD tranny that can handle 1000hp reliably.

If rear grip could be improved by just going to wider tires, all high horsepower cars would just go with wider rear tires and leave the awd weight off the vehicle.

 

There is trade off when adding tire width.

 

As far as I know, the only reason to go to multiple rear tires is for load capacity.

 

If somebody is blowing off sticky 315mm rear tires, I would think that is more about the driver being hamfisted, not a lack of rear traction that could be improved by wider tires...

Actually traction is improved by taller tires, not by wider. I also looked at some tall dot drag tires, but didnt want it to be a drag only truck.

Nope the overall amount of grip wouldn't change. Contact patch shape changes.  Taller tires would help with straight line and hurt lateral grip.

 

You already said you weren't interested in drag racing..  my point was that wider tires don't help cornering grip and traction grip after a certain point.

 

So, let me reiterate....  dually tires are not a great idea and won't solve the issue that you implied you were trying to solve.

 

Somehow, you are concerned with "forward" traction in an autocross.  

 

What exactly is the problem you are trying to solve?  Forward grip or lateral grip?  Or something else entirely?

Please let me reiterate, this is just a novel way to put 1000hp down without AWD or racing tires. Exit speed is a big factor in traction also. The theory is if a 500hp 911 GT2 can get by with 315/30R18s, then 4 should work for 1000hp. The handling is uncharted territory, which I'm excited about. Of course I know a 650hp Enzo gets by with 345/35/19s, but thats already been done, just as well as a 1000hp GT-Rs with GT1 tires all around. Time for something original.

11GTCS
11GTCS HalfDork
11/20/20 7:30 p.m.
svxsti said:
jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) said:

What I like about this forum is that actions matter more than words, what you are actually doing to you car (tow rig, boat, mini-bike, garage, etc.) is worth more than what you’re “gonna do” to it, and you literally can’t post enough pictures of it; everyone is hungry to know what everyone else is doing and eager to help each other.

 I also like the utter lack of flame wars, and how y’all are kind even towards lurkers and trolls.  Even canoes get boxed with kid gloves here. It’s a nice place to be and it keeps me coming back.

@svxsti you should really start a legit build thread of something you’re working on now, something your turning wrenches on regularly and consistently working toward a goal. All this talking you’re doing just isn’t going to get a lot of traction here. 

Sorry I dont turn wrenches, I'm an ahole driver. The guys that work my projects really dont like anyone walking into their work area, especially taking pictures. I really have been better things to do with my time. This is has been a great way to kill time waiting in all these covid lines though. Yeah, I like to shop, getting a maniped now.

Hmmmm, seeing a pattern here. 

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 7:47 p.m.
wearymicrobe said:

I have a two sets of seriously nice 19x14 inch wheels I could sell you to run all around with 355 slicks. But I want at least a Boxster based kit car in trade. 

 

 

Actually a 345/35R19 on a boosted AWD SUV would be great for those. 

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 7:48 p.m.
11GTCS said:
svxsti said:
jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) said:

What I like about this forum is that actions matter more than words, what you are actually doing to you car (tow rig, boat, mini-bike, garage, etc.) is worth more than what you’re “gonna do” to it, and you literally can’t post enough pictures of it; everyone is hungry to know what everyone else is doing and eager to help each other.

 I also like the utter lack of flame wars, and how y’all are kind even towards lurkers and trolls.  Even canoes get boxed with kid gloves here. It’s a nice place to be and it keeps me coming back.

@svxsti you should really start a legit build thread of something you’re working on now, something your turning wrenches on regularly and consistently working toward a goal. All this talking you’re doing just isn’t going to get a lot of traction here. 

Sorry I dont turn wrenches, I'm an ahole driver. The guys that work my projects really dont like anyone walking into their work area, especially taking pictures. I really have been better things to do with my time. This is has been a great way to kill time waiting in all these covid lines though. Yeah, I like to shop, getting a maniped now.

Hmmmm, seeing a pattern here. 

Me too, you keep reading my thread, thanks.

TJL (Forum Supporter)
TJL (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
11/20/20 7:50 p.m.

Please let me reiterate, this is just a novel way to put 1000hp down without AWD or racing tires. Exit speed is a big factor in traction also. The theory is if a 500hp 911 GT2 can get by with 315/30R18s, then 4 should work for 1000hp. The handling is uncharted territory, which I'm excited about. Of course I know a 650hp Enzo gets by with 345/35/19s, but thats already been done, just as well as a 1000hp GT-Rs with GT1 tires all around. Time for something original.

just wanted to quote this for entertainment later. 

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/20/20 8:34 p.m.
dherr (Forum Supporter) said:
svxsti said:
jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) said:

What I like about this forum is that actions matter more than words, what you are actually doing to you car (tow rig, boat, mini-bike, garage, etc.) is worth more than what you’re “gonna do” to it, and you literally can’t post enough pictures of it; everyone is hungry to know what everyone else is doing and eager to help each other.

 I also like the utter lack of flame wars, and how y’all are kind even towards lurkers and trolls.  Even canoes get boxed with kid gloves here. It’s a nice place to be and it keeps me coming back.

@svxsti you should really start a legit build thread of something you’re working on now, something your turning wrenches on regularly and consistently working toward a goal. All this talking you’re doing just isn’t going to get a lot of traction here. 

Sorry I dont turn wrenches, I'm an ahole driver. The guys that work my projects really dont like anyone walking into their work area, especially taking pictures. I really have been better things to do with my time. This is has been a great way to kill time waiting in all these covid lines though. Yeah, I like to shop, getting a maniped now.

So why did you post to a "Builds and Project Cars" forum? This is for people to discuss their projects, not brag or talk trash about stuff they want to do or might do. There are other forums for that. The people here are all involved with their projects and share their knowledge and skills freely. This is not the forum for cell phone screen shots of supposed models you are dating and pictures of other peoples cars that you say you own or could own. Not to be rude but it is time to move on.

Like I said in the beginning, to post when I will be at an event. Doesn't get anymore real than that. Just like when I built my SVX STi, no one believed it had a JDM 5sp with 4.44 gears and a motor tuned for nitrous until I showed up at New England Dragway and ran a 12.6s at 3600 lbs. I'm still the record holder on dragtimes.com and the car is still on cardomain. My maroon car also pictured doing AWD burnouts no one thought possible until I did it. I like to give a taste before I throw a party, granted some people dont like to party with me, as Im sure some people dont like to party with you, but with me its always a party ;)

thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter)
thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
11/20/20 11:11 p.m.
svxsti said:
dherr (Forum Supporter) said:
svxsti said:
jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) said:

What I like about this forum is that actions matter more than words, what you are actually doing to you car (tow rig, boat, mini-bike, garage, etc.) is worth more than what you’re “gonna do” to it, and you literally can’t post enough pictures of it; everyone is hungry to know what everyone else is doing and eager to help each other.

 I also like the utter lack of flame wars, and how y’all are kind even towards lurkers and trolls.  Even canoes get boxed with kid gloves here. It’s a nice place to be and it keeps me coming back.

@svxsti you should really start a legit build thread of something you’re working on now, something your turning wrenches on regularly and consistently working toward a goal. All this talking you’re doing just isn’t going to get a lot of traction here. 

Sorry I dont turn wrenches, I'm an ahole driver. The guys that work my projects really dont like anyone walking into their work area, especially taking pictures. I really have been better things to do with my time. This is has been a great way to kill time waiting in all these covid lines though. Yeah, I like to shop, getting a maniped now.

So why did you post to a "Builds and Project Cars" forum? This is for people to discuss their projects, not brag or talk trash about stuff they want to do or might do. There are other forums for that. The people here are all involved with their projects and share their knowledge and skills freely. This is not the forum for cell phone screen shots of supposed models you are dating and pictures of other peoples cars that you say you own or could own. Not to be rude but it is time to move on.

Like I said in the beginning, to post when I will be at an event. Doesn't get anymore real than that. Just like when I built my SVX STi, no one believed it had a JDM 5sp with 4.44 gears and a motor tuned for nitrous until I showed up at New England Dragway and ran a 12.6s at 3600 lbs. I'm still the record holder on dragtimes.com and the car is still on cardomain. My maroon car also pictured doing AWD burnouts no one thought possible until I did it. I like to give a taste before I throw a party, granted some people dont like to party with me, as Im sure some people dont like to party with you, but with me its always a party ;)

Lol, yep. No SVXs in the top ten. 

svxsti
svxsti Reader
11/21/20 10:51 a.m.

Record holder for SVXs smh

The trouble you go through to be counter productive is downright communist, how many of you voted for Biden lol

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