Good feedback, all. I enjoy the voices of experience.
Good feedback, all. I enjoy the voices of experience.
Racecar Christmas tree! The truck isn't even broken, but we're stupid.
Now that the interior smells like freshly cut pine, time to work on it some more. I disconnected the head unit and airbag module, on the basis that if it functions without those I can remove the rest of the components in both systems safely:
Then I decided to tackle the steering lock. On my way to it, I found some mystery relay spliced into the ignition wiring- whatever it used to power is gone, all I know is it's not supposed to be there and it's not staying:
The steering lock itself only had one safety bolt, so a little dremel work and some aggressive screwdriver and vicegrip action got it out:
It's m8x1.25 and about 25mm long, for anyone needing that information:
A little more dremel work to get the deadbolt thing cut down flush:
Put it back together, checked that nothing seems to have been messed up, and rewarded myself by installing the steering wheel:
Sara got me this Momo wheel about 8 years ago, meaning it's older than this car! It originally lived in my V6 rallycross MR2- it has been in several cars since then and I'm hoping it brings some good luck to this one.
So, I've been trying to follow a simple rule as I go through the process of gutting this car and deciding what to keep, modify, or remove: don't make the car worse for no reason. Things like speakers, carpet, useless modules have obvious reasons to be thrown out- they don't do anything, and they're heavy. Little trim pieces which could get thrown out "because racecar" might get retained because they keep sharp edges hidden and weigh very little- we basically have to live in the car for a full weekend at events, so a fraction of a pound here and there might be worth the ability to, for example, put an elbow on the trans tunnel without getting hurt, keep the dashboard from hurting legs, etc.
Where I'm undecided is the air conditioning. Sara and I both have a pretty high heat tolerance, and have completed a number of events where other people (not to mention our own engine) had serious heat exhaustion/sickness issues while we had no problems other than increased need for water. So is air conditioning worth the added weight and complexity and potential engine cooling issues it presents in exchange for a cooler interior? My gut reaction is "hell no" but people keep telling me otherwise.
I dunno. I guess it depends on where you want this car to land on the long-term 'sorta-racecar---> full racecar' scale. If you plan to drive it to events or use it beyond rally, I'd personally keep it. If you're just doing events/rallycross with it, I'd suck it up and use a ghetto coolsuit, haha.
golfduke said:I dunno. I guess it depends on where you want this car to land on the long-term 'sorta-racecar---> full racecar' scale. If you plan to drive it to events or use it beyond rally, I'd personally keep it. If you're just doing events/rallycross with it, I'd suck it up and use a ghetto coolsuit, haha.
It's going to be trailered to events once the cage is in, but I'll still drive it on the street sometimes- even without air conditioning this will be luxurious compared to our previous rallycars. No coolsuits though, I don't feel like carrying around a cooler full of ice either. 
I would leave it unless you KNOW that having it there is a problem. AC is useful. Not just for cooling, but for more effective defrosting/defogging and that can be a safety issue.
But I also live in Texas, so my opinion is very shaped by that.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
It's hard to know- our previous cars were both prone to overheating, so having a hot AC condenser sitting right in front of the radiator seems really stupid. But so is having a foggy windshield, although that wasn't a problem for us in those same previous cars with the heater (which I am NOT removing) cranked up.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:golfduke said:I dunno. I guess it depends on where you want this car to land on the long-term 'sorta-racecar---> full racecar' scale. If you plan to drive it to events or use it beyond rally, I'd personally keep it. If you're just doing events/rallycross with it, I'd suck it up and use a ghetto coolsuit, haha.
It's going to be trailered to events once the cage is in, but I'll still drive it on the street sometimes- even without air conditioning this will be luxurious compared to our previous rallycars. No coolsuits though, I don't feel like carrying around a cooler full of ice either.
I guess I'll leave it as- I've pulled AC from two cars- one of which was driven relatively often on the streets and competitively autocrossed locally... and the other a dedicated track car that only saw trailers and events.
I regretted it in both. I got over it in the second car by setting a coolsuit system up, but I still regretted it for those 100+ degree days waiting half an hour plus in grid, wishing I was dead and wondering if that was sweat or pee that I felt down my leg.
The only motorsport I have really done is AutoX and the only time I have been thankful for A/C is on the drive home. It's been quite nice having A/C driving home in mid-July after standing out in the sun for 8 hours straight. I work outside a lot so heat doesn't bother me much either. If I were you, the A/C would be gone.
Will keeping the a/c make the cage install any more difficult? And will the cage install make removing the a/c any more difficult? If the answer to both is no I feel like I'd leave it for now and see if you end up using it much/at all or if it causes any cooling issues. If you have overheating issues right away or get to the end of the season and find that you haven't used it...away it goes. But it's going to be waaaay easier to remove it later than to add it back in or spend the rest of the car's life wishing you hadn't pulled it.
All that said, I'm honestly not sure if I think keeping it is the right move.
I have always been rabid about no a/c. Having said that the last race day i did was 40c/104f and I was seriously jealous of the cars wih a/c. It comes down to whether it's worth carrying the extra 8-10kg 22lb's of the a/c along with the engine bay complexity and added complication of pulling motors etc. just my 2c.
In reply to dps214 :
That is part of it- the dash and windshield are both coming out for the cage, so getting everything removed cleanly will never be easier.
We will be adding a roof scoop, so even with the windows up there will be some fresh air.
In reply to 2Girlsracing :
Our record in the previous car was one event where it was right around 100F for most of the afternoon- we were sweating, of course, but I'm not sure it really impacted our performance since the car was having issues. Unsurprisingly, the engine was on the verge of overheating and we pulled the hood off for the four hottest stages- so in that car, I would think we wouldn't have been able to run the air conditioning even if we had it since that would have meant hotter air to the already marginal radiator.
I should ask the other BRZ rally teams whether they kept it.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:So, I've been trying to follow a simple rule as I go through the process of gutting this car and deciding what to keep, modify, or remove: don't make the car worse for no reason. Things like speakers, carpet, useless modules have obvious reasons to be thrown out- they don't do anything, and they're heavy. Little trim pieces which could get thrown out "because racecar" might get retained because they keep sharp edges hidden and weigh very little- we basically have to live in the car for a full weekend at events, so a fraction of a pound here and there might be worth the ability to, for example, put an elbow on the trans tunnel without getting hurt, keep the dashboard from hurting legs, etc.
Where I'm undecided is the air conditioning. Sara and I both have a pretty high heat tolerance, and have completed a number of events where other people (not to mention our own engine) had serious heat exhaustion/sickness issues while we had no problems other than increased need for water. So is air conditioning worth the added weight and complexity and potential engine cooling issues it presents in exchange for a cooler interior? My gut reaction is "hell no" but people keep telling me otherwise.
I personally have always wished to have A/C, as I think any weight penalty is worth it unless you are absolutely on the pointy end of the spear in terms of podium position and think 15lbs will make up that 2 seconds per stage. My car never had working AC from the start, so that made removing it in the early days of the build an obvious choice, but if it worked I suspect it would still be in the car today. I think being able to cool down sufficiently on transits, etc, makes it well worth it from a fatigue perspective - in addition to it being very useful for defogging the windshield on wet/rainy rallies. IDK what your window plans are, but in my car with the lexan rears we get pretty weak airflow even with (glass roll-down OEM front) windows open. If you're going to Lexan your front windows and go with a "slot"/racecar-style opening, that would be even more reason to keep AC.
I see some other teams running coolsuits and stuff like that, but when it comes down to it, a 2-person coolsuit setup essentially ends up weighing as much as a chunk of the AC system in the end, anyhow (and is a hassle, in my experience from using it in road racing). Since you'd only use it on transit/between stages anyhow (unless rain/defrost needed, in which case it probably isn't too hot), likely wouldn't present an overheating issue.
It's not like you can't remove it later if it proves to be troublesome or unnecessary. But since it currently works, I'd lean toward keeping it, at least for the short term.
Side note, Erin K. said she doesn't think Potts had AC in their car when she rode with him. But of course those guys are shooting for national podiums and IDK what their other priorities were.
In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :
Don't get so caught up in improving the car's performance that you start degrading the crew's performance.
In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :
It's not about weight, it's about engine cooling- in other words, not performance but reliability. Iglesias and Potts both removed their air conditioning, so I'm questioning whether I want to be the guinea pig in terms of what it does to the cooling system- I have no idea whether all rally cars have overheating issues, I just know that our last two did.
I appreciate the input from everyone, I'm not trying to be difficult here but I am trying to look at this from a "what makes the car least likely to DNF" perspective.
In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :
If its off, does the condenser really block that much airflow to the rad? You wont be dumping extra heat into the rad....
I vote leave it for now. You can always pull if its an issue after an event or two.
I definitely get where you're coming from. But I think it's worth keeping in mind that your past two cars were 80s E36 M3boxes and a rotary and a turbo, ie the two things best at producing tons of heat. This time you've got a modern car with a not super highly stressed n/a engine that you plan to keep roughly stock, right? I'd guess it's pretty safe, especially with the oil cooler.
In reply to dps214 :
You have highlighted exactly why I am out of my element here.
Sara had a brilliant suggestion on this- Dirtfish has a whole fleet of these things that get abused in their rally school. I've got a message out to them asking whether the air conditioning ever presents a problem.
The last lemons car we built was a Solstice and it has working A/C. We were being lazy as we got it ready and left it all. Even running in the heat of Buttonwillow this summer it was OK with only the slightly thicker radiator from the turbo model, even with the A/C in the way. Modern cars are designed to have the A/C on all the time and are quite good, not like our favorite 80s cars.
We are soon to build another car out of our 250k mile Mazda3 daily driver, and are going to try leaving the A/C as it works, and see if we have problems.
On second thought, definitely delete it so I do not have to be jealous of you, since you will be suffering like the rest of us ;)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:I appreciate the input from everyone, I'm not trying to be difficult here but I am trying to look at this from a "what makes the car least likely to DNF" perspective.
In that case, maybe think of the condenser as an additional barrier from a rock-strike to the radiator?
Because I'm old and soft, I vote keeping the A/C. But I want working A/C in all of my cars, including some that never had it from the factory (or was even a dealer option).
id keep it, but change the interior ducting setup to be more cage/crew friendly, IE ducts aimed at the windshield, and the crew, and not much else. could also potentially modify the airbox/blower assembly to not be as bulky as they generally are stock.
Edit: also, they make motorsport specific dry break assemblies for AC connections, id look into those so you dont have to deal with potentially draining the lines, or working around fragile AC o ring connections all the time.
Well, since A: it'll annoy Josh, B: lots of other people said it shouldn't be a problem, and C: ARA just updated their rules to include an expensive onboard fire suppression system, I guess I'm not spending money on an air conditioning delete pulley. I'm more than a little annoyed about "C" there, I guess I have some fire system research to do.
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