Cassius said:
You might even be able to fast them in magnesium if you're concerned about the weight?
I don't know why it's not letting me end the quote, so I'll say here. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CAST MAGNESIUM AT HOME, YOU WILL START A VERY IMPOSSIBLE FIRE. I don't know if I would trust home CAST aluminum wheels either unless the person is very experienced and you know exactly what's in the blend of metals.
There will be no magnesium cast at home or anywhere else, that option is not on the table for the project
I'm at a 90% confidence it will be CF, unless I find something when I start the mold design or molding process development......then the fall back is 70% likely billet center 3pc, 30% likely cast center 3pc.
I got the shape a little happier....stating to get stressed stuff lined up better. I thought I was just going to get it looking the way I wanted then create a hollow shell but it's a little to complex for that to work so I think I need to redraw it to be hollow from the start. The way its drawn I just change the width and offset and its a rear....I see a couple errors but I'll fix that on the redraw I guess.
The front wheel solid as is is 17.3 lbs. I put it into the printing software which shells (but won't give any output but g-code) and it says 12.2lbs for the shelled part....the final version will be between those numbers....probably around 14lbs as I err on the side of strength
Bruce Crower needs to know about this project. I bet he still has a forge in his garage. Just sayin'..
Jay_W said:Bruce Crower needs to know about this project. I bet he still has a forge in his garage. Just sayin'..
The word you're looking for is "foundry"
Very, very impressed with the progress on this build. Strong work!
Yet, even more impressed with the "Anything is possible, never take no for an answer!" philosophy.
As a fellow engineer, fabricator, and general motorsport wingnut, I appreciate your enthusiasm for tackling carbon wheels.
And you've obviously got a quite fearsome skillset.
Buuuut..... I've recently had the opportunity to tackle some carbon bodywork for a customer's moto.
I know I could do it, however I've not done it, and I don't have the appropriate equipment.
So, in pursuit of quality, budget and delivery, the work was sent to a local vendor to quote.
My example is 'business' based, so not directly comparable.
More along the lines of 'appropriate resource allocation'.
No disrespect intended!
In reply to Speeddog :
yeah.....I'm quite certain this is a terrible idea that will end up being way more effort than its worth. This is ability/equipment that has been on my want to add to the shop list for quite a while though so.....
...... I got the model redrawn. I still don't love the way a few things came out, there are a few thing to check and/or fix, but its not horrible.. The front is at 13.9lb, the rear 15.4. The basic idea is that the stuff shown hollow will be foam to support the layup through curing and I don't really care that its dead weight after cure....its just not enough weight to worry about. I may not even bother with the foam in the bead area...I need to see how much weight that is I guess.
Impressive plans! I sure hope the wheels work out! I learned enough about composites to scare me--all the difficulties of orienting each layer of composite in the right direction, avoiding delamination and air bubbles, UV damage, etc--but not enough to know how to make components that would work for certain 
For heat shielding, I'd suggest a ceramic paint or coating like for your exhaust headers. That's apparently what Ford is using on the Shelby GT350 carbon wheels (and probably others).
Perhaps a low-tech solution would be to use some kind of aluminum film/tape or other heat-reflective paint.
I don't know if it's at all worth looking at https://braidusa.com but I had some 15x6 wheels made by them a few years ago with a custom offset and center bore for only $240 apiece. Those were some of the cheaper wheels, though, and shipping was probably another $230.
The guy who ran the US operations last I checked (Paul Eddleston) was very friendly and helpful, and who knows--you might be able to do something like order only wheel barrels from 3-piece wheels and make your own centers, or buy centers to add to your own barrels rather than shelling out for full wheels--shipping should be a lot less too.
BTW this insane thread is a major reason I stopped lurking and joined!
Thanks for posting this project...I’ve been a GRM reader since the Auto-X magazine days, and builds like this one and the Unicorn Mercedes build by @Mazdeuce make me so happy to have come over to the web version! The 11-year time warp aspect of this build is actually kind of cool!
Read through the entire thread tonight after work after finding it by accident, and like many others I’m truly in awe...I thought my closet renovation over the past couple of weekends, and fabricating some brackets to mount lights on my son’s Jeep was an accomplishment until I saw you built an entire workshop...and that you’re building tools to build the tools you need for this project! LOL
Though looking at all that cutting, and welding...and then more cutting and welding makes me wonder if it’d have been easier in the long run to just start here:
Edit: My vote for wheels would be custom 3-piece to get the offset you need with the center you designed. And while the center would be relatively easy (for you...beyond my skill set), I’d order the barrels from someone who specializes in that line of work.
I, for one, would like to see the wheel get reinvented.
In reply to 91Eunos :
Sadly after a year and a half I'm still working on the shop. Just finished the plumbing then tiling the floor and back wall to Lana's specs, now waiting on the molding she ordered.
While I wait I need to get the doors working right. When I installed them I decided to do a high lift setup so I cut the back section of track and welded it in ventricle. That made the extension springs worthless so it got a torsion setup for 1 to try....its awful. I don't know how the guy did the math but it's not close to right and neither were the cable install instructions he gave me. Redid the math myself and called back knowing what I needed but this time the guy I got calculated almost exactly what I came up with?,? Anyway, today's project is go pick up hardware for 2 doors and springs and cables for 3 and get them working right.
Nader said:I, for one, would like to see the wheel get reinvented.
I realized yesterday that there was probably more reinvention going on than there should.....there have to be standards for best design that I should be following. I'll need to dig those up before I can finalize that part of the design.
Originally I was thinking double sided mold for the bead area.....and I still might but the koniggseg video has me thinking maybe it would be best to leave it 1 sided to be certain the vacuum bag is effective and not worry about molding the bead profile...just make it thick and machine it or spec after, many cut the mounting flanges at the same time and know for certain the wheel will spin true.
3 garage doors now open! I'm still not thrilled with the springs... the first set they gave me were way too stiff...about 1/3 too stiff. The new springs are about 10 too soft I think......but they work WAY better. Not sure why I let door guy convince me they were right.....but they aren't too bad. High lift seems to really mess high there brians
I had a similar experience with my doors. 12' ceiling, one 10ft door, one 9ft. I requested that the 9ft door be up at the same height from the ceiling while opened as the 10ft door. You would have thought I soaked their dogs in gasoline and struck a match....
In my non-garage door guy mind, I figured it couldn't be any more difficult than hanging a 10ft door in front of my 9ft opening and using the 10ft track and spring locations.... I was wrong..... I shoulda just had two 10ft doors.
In reply to gumby :
I'm pretty sure the problem is they just don't do it that way often enough to kow what they are doing and I just assumed they did know because they acted as if they did. The garage feels so much bigger with the doors and tracks up out of the way
I was kind of laughing to myself after I wrote the post nd realized I was obsessing as much about tuning my garage door spring as my car springs :) The true is the new doors are already working better than the 2 door on the house but I don't notice because the house doors have openers....push the button and they go up. High lift doors need to use a masterlift shaft style opener which are more money...like $400 each. I did install plugs for them but I'd rather spend the money on CF for my new wheels :)
If anyone else heads down the high lift door path I'm pretty sure I now understand it. You need a torsion spring and need what are called high lift drums. The drums have a round section and a taper section....the cables need to be cut so the drum is at the transition ...so I have 24" high lift, I blocked the door up 24", locked the shaft with the transition tangent to the cable and then wrapped the cable nd marked it. there is an online place the specializes in high lift conversions....they say there kits all come with the same length cables but that can't be right as a 7' door need the transition in the different place then an 8' door....my guess it they split it. For me, with a 7ft door and 24" high lift the cable is 13'1"....and I think that would be the same with any amount of high high up to the 54" the drums allow. an 8' door probably wants a 14' cable.
Then the springs.....then on-line place didn't tell me what springs they quoted but did say 9.9 turn to load them. The first set of local springs was 7.5 turns, the new sets are at 10...so these are the same springs the on-line place was quoting and both are wrong. Normal drums are 4" and the cable on the outside so its center is a slightly larger dia x pi and 1 turn is 1ft of door travel. The tech the first time told me you load spring 1 turn per ft of door plus maybe 1/2 and that is correct because normally as the door goes up it starts around the corner and the weight is held by the horizontal track. So the spins light th full door at the bottom and 7 turns later for a 7 ft door no door weight at the top.
High light buggers that because the door os going up and down at constant weight but the spring is winding and unwinding so its force is changing......this is why you need the taper drums. With the taper as the door moves up and down the spring is gaining or losing leverage in theory at exactly the rate the spring force is changing and the result is a constant force to match the doors constant weight. This math is a little hard and seems to bugger the door guys. I'm pretty sure the right way to do the math is the spring rate with a highlift setup is EXACLY the same as a normal setup...in my case 5ft of travel is a normal setup and with the door blocked 2ft up the top is just starting its turn and the door wants 7 turns of load on the spring to balance. Then as it move dow on the tapered section of drum it needs 2 more turns of load...really more like 1.75 because of the taper so the correct springs would need about 8.75 turns of load not 10, and not 7.5...8.75. The springs I have now are too soft, so too long by about 12% (8.75/10), they are 35" so cutting to 35x.875=30.625 and my doors would work perfect.....and the spring rate would be basically exactly the same as they calculated for no high light. You can't just use the standard springs because of fatigue life.....but I'm quite certain spring rate wants to match standard then do the fatigue math to find the right size....in my case cutting the spring is reducing the travel by the same amount I'm reducing the length so fatigue should work out right too I think.
I'm not sure how to remove the ends to cut the springs....there must be a tool. I'll probably call on Monday....the doors work ok.....but I know they could work better with 12% stiffer springs....and now I'm LOL again as I obsess over tuning garage door springs and cables :)
......and crying little as I start to understand why the frikin garage isn't finished....... and I still need to replace the house doors (garage doors PLUS the front door and probably the shutters I'm told) to match the new garage doors so the fun has only just begun! :(
Edit...and this time I'll ask if they can please cut them all the same length....there is about a 1.5" variation in the 3 springs they gave me.
In reply to mke :
Similar problem with my garage door. I needed what’s called quick turn brackets for tight clearance issues.
First 5 companies I called had no idea what I was talking about. Luckily my decades of selling to the construction industry gave me a really complete Rolodex. A few calls and I bought the brackets from one company, the panels from another. The springs from a third and the lift from a big box store on sale.
As a result, my garage door cost me less than the cheapest uninsulated door would have cost.
mke said:
Can you unpack this little gem for a minute?
Speeddog said:mke said:
Can you unpack this little gem for a minute?
That is a weldcraft W-125
https://www.arc-zone.com/WP-125
For aluminum you MUST have the quart gas cups not the way cheaper glass ones. You will also need extra collets.....they say 80a with AC...I set to machine to 150A so parts don't last forever. Be sure to preheat to limit amps.
For me the ports were ground right through so thin, then I used 1/8" stock to make the filler pieces and it worked. I also used it to do some filling on the bottom inside radius in the exhaust ports so that metal was thicker.
I also use this one
https://www.arc-zone.com/WP-24W
A WP-24, now called a W-180, rated at 180A. Not quite as small but all you'd need for US v8 ports.
Then my daily torch is a wp-20....250-300A depending on brand. Small but durable....this is the torch I used for all the block welding, set at 350A because there has to be a safety factor.....down in the bore the plastic handle was melting and there was sme hand burning going on.
If you convert to centerlock hubs, these would be perfect:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/speedline-for-ferrari-288-gto/
In reply to Nader :
They would and I watch it...but 288 wheels normally sell about $20,000 for a nice set so I can't believe they wil trade hands anywhere near the current bid.
I am late to the party and just found this thread today. I started reading this morning and just finished now after being very rude and antisocial all day. It reminds me of a quote a machinist friend of mine once said to me "it's only metal, you won't hurt its feelings."
A few pages ago you casually mentioned something about needing your own dyno. Obviously if you have a home built big block Ferrari hotrod you also need a home built dyno to tune it on. Otherwise, what's the point right?
mke saidThat is a weldcraft W-125
https://www.arc-zone.com/WP-125
For aluminum you MUST have the quart gas cups not the way cheaper glass ones. You will also need extra collets.....they say 80a with AC...I set to machine to 150A so parts don't last forever. Be sure to preheat to limit amps.
For me the ports were ground right through so thin, then I used 1/8" stock to make the filler pieces and it worked. I also used it to do some filling on the bottom inside radius in the exhaust ports so that metal was thicker.
I also use this one
https://www.arc-zone.com/WP-24W
A WP-24, now called a W-180, rated at 180A. Not quite as small but all you'd need for US v8 ports.
Then my daily torch is a wp-20....250-300A depending on brand. Small but durable....this is the torch I used for all the block welding, set at 350A because there has to be a safety factor.....down in the bore the plastic handle was melting and there was sme hand burning going on.
Thanks, that's some really good info.
I'm not planning on running high amps, but then if the torch will go I could try it.
I do moto stuff, so it's not heavy sections.
mke said:In reply to Nader :
They would and I watch it...but 288 wheels normally sell about $20,000 for a nice set so I can't believe they wil trade hands anywhere near the current bid.
Ended at $9k... reserve not met. OEM NLA Supercars parts can be pricey. I have used 288 GTO front turn signals on my car... they were $350 15 years ago, the year earlier when you could still order them from Ferrari they $100 for a pair I think it was....I hate to think what they'd cost today.
Plus they were 16" not 18.....plus plus I haven't sold my old wheels yet so the today budget is $0
When I saw this video, I was instantly reminded of all the incredible fabrication on this thread.
This guy built his own Ferrari (and a few other cars) out of wood!
J1000 said:A few pages ago you casually mentioned something about needing your own dyno. Obviously if you have a home built big block Ferrari hotrod you also need a home built dyno to tune it on. Otherwise, what's the point right?
I think about that.....a LOT. I have a 36000 gallon outdoor water storage container with about 800sqft of surface area so no need for any new tanks or chillers which saves a ton of money on the install. The enginelab ECU I have can easily be programed monitor/control/display a dyno so no cost there. Really its just some hose and a pump and a buddy of mine has a pump I know he would sell......but then there are the neighbors and as the Grinch would say the noise, the noise, NOISE NOISE! Noise management is where I'd tie up a pretty big chunk of money I think.
I spoke to a local place that has an engine dyno and leaving the engine on one of there stands for weeks on end in fine so that seems a better way to go then a home made setup....but even that's not cheap. I'd need to make a dyno wiring harness which would be several hundred $$, then figure out how to actually get it on a dyno....remember the oil pan is the transmission....but maybe if I pull the drop gear case and bellhousing off...I figured I'd be into it for about $1000 before any actual dyno testing started so that hasn't happened. It adds up fast. Its really nice when the engine can sit on the stand easy to work on...fix oil leaks, try different cam timing and you're not being charged dyno hours while you work...but its a big upfront investment when its an engine they don't have all the adapters already made for.
The basic plan is get it running well enough to drive to a chassis dyno and spend a day...its been a few years but last time I did it it was $500/day and normally a day is enough. I do want ot play with stack length options and air boxes whish could turn it into 2 days I guess or more likely a full day followed by a couple 1/2 days or be the hour days as I make new parts to test. Honestly though I'm not sure how much effort I'm ever going to put into extracting the very last hp. I'd like a dyno sheet with a big number for bragging rights but that really all its is since this is a street car.
Another more cost effective tuning option is just get the car weighed and let the ECU or PC calculate hp/torque. When the PC is connected there are virtual channels so the PC can read the wheel speed and rpm and do the hp calculation or the ECU can do it, its very little processor time. In stand a lone mode the ECU will log up to 200 channels at 1000hz each but when the PC is connected anything and everything that is displayed on any tab is logged. So it would be pretty easy to do a few 30-70mph pulls on a lonely section of highway with no real fear of a ticket for anything and have all the same info I'd get on an acceleration dyno. No doubt there will be a lot of this going on prior to real dyno day.
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