FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Syscrush said:

Maybe with sleeves there's less/no risk of the deformation?

The OEM ferrari setup is pre-finished drop in sleeves.  They come round, they are not produced with torque plates or anything similar.  I guess way back the goal was track-side rebuild...just a guess though.  They make that work by using head studs that are pretty long and are basically screwed into the main bearing webs, below anything that needs to stay round to cylinder wise.  Then the cylinder itself floats in the block, clamped only on a flange at the deck and they stay pretty round.

It is no doubt better the finish with torque plates, but the open question is whether is enough better to bother with given they are already much rounder than more common head bolts into the deck designs deliver.  I was leaning to at least hone in the block but as that proved problematic the new thought is finish on the bench, then double check in the block and if needed a quick hit with the hone again.

as for material to hone, yes ideally you hone only what's needed for surface finish.....the question is know what that number is.  The general rule is plan 4thou but I didn't know what the darton finish would be and they were saying plan 10 to clean up I ordered them at 6 under knowing I didn't want to do any boring.  Seeing them honestly 2 or 3 at most is all I needed to hone as the finish they provided was quite good so next time I'll know. and the first 2-3 comes out fast as you're knocking down tool marks but now I'm removing material everywhere so its slower going.  My time is free though and I'm saving about $800-$1000 the shop was going to charge to do the work so I can spend that elsewhere. 

Last night I had to help with homework but tonight I'll be back in the shop and expect to have them all up to ready to finish hone condition.  then 4-8 at that step and its tim to install them....Saturday hopefully.

In reply to mke :

It hold on bike fairing at speed so i would not be concern as long as its wrap with a layer of fiberglass screen. 

As we say the best way to do thing is the way you know. Best way to not do it twice

Its taking a lot longer than I'd planned. I was in the shop at least a couple hours every night this week and I'll probably be still honing all weekend, not moving on the fitting the main bearing as I thought. Looks like bearing will be next weekend. At some point I will be recalled to house work so I need to pick up the pace on the engine if I want it running this spring.

and speaking of doing things twice, the graphics place making the tach face stickers had to re-do the conversion from CAD to pdf for me....I was so proud of that effort but they were not so much happy with it...and I honestly didn't understand why....but they fixed it, sent a pdf for approval and I assume are now making them.

         Everything's nice, cuz I do it all twice.

Still honing......when I said they were all at 2-2.5 that was a lie.  They are so thin that a snug feeler gauge is probably a couple thou, a tight gauge maybe 3 or 4.  Now they are all an honest 2.5-3+.  This was clearly not the right way to do this job but I'm nearly done.......

Last night 1 cylinder got to the point that is was time to move it from the course stone line and into the fine line!  I decided the original plan of .001" with fine stones was stupid, so it only needs another 1/4 to 1/2 thou.  progress.......slow and really REALLY boring, but progress.

Standing at the mill mindlessly honing (6 now in the ready for finish pile) I got thinking.....how do we get a bunch of hot 308s all in one place for a shootout?  Say my V12, Nick's V8 screamer (3.9L 11k rpm, 600hp), Aaron's turbo monster(800hp), maybe Mike's 4cyl turbo (K24 turbo swap).   Maybe dyno, weight, the standard R&T stuff (skid pad, braking, slalom, 1/4 mile), maybe autocross, maybe hop lap.......maybe a SEMA booth? That would be kind of cool ....(conspire quietly ahead of time so everyone "wins" something ....shhhh) and get it in a magazine or a cool video.

mke said:

Standing at the mill mindlessly honing (6 now in the ready for finish pile) I got thinking.....how do we get a bunch of hot 308s all in one place for a shootout?  Say my V12, Nick's V8 screamer (3.9L 11k rpm, 600hp), Aaron's turbo monster(800hp), maybe Mike's 4cyl turbo (K24 turbo swap).   Maybe dyno, weight, the standard R&T stuff (skid pad, braking, slalom, 1/4 mile), maybe autocross, maybe hop lap.......maybe a SEMA booth? That would be kind of cool ....(conspire quietly ahead of time so everyone "wins" something ....shhhh) and get it in a magazine or a cool video.

I could bring my Fiero! lol JK! it would be pretty cool to see you guys all put your cars head to head!

ejs262 said:

I could bring my Fiero! lol JK! it would be pretty cool to see you guys all put your cars head to head!

Crazy Jimmy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa90HMdNqK4)

In reply to SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) :

LOL, that's hilarious!

it would be great to simulate a period road test, like a Road and Track article from when the cars were new

In reply to SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) :

I don't even know what to say....:

After getting to 9 last night I figured for sure I'd be done done tonight...yeah, no, but all 12 are ready for finish and probably safe to use just as they are for finish just means a nice smooth cross hatch which SHOULD be another 10-15 minutes each. Tomorrow will hopefully bring this chapter to a close

I put the other stones in hit all 12 but I I wasn't loving the finish and realized the stones I have are 80 and 180 grit so I ordered a 280 grit set that amazon says I'll have tomorrow....so the honing stretches another day.

So....as I was wrapping up "all" the wiring, who's job was it to remind me about the nitrous button?  I can't count on you guys for anything! 

In reply to mke :

Good time for a seat eject button....too late?

There is more to the honing story.  I've been only about 1/2 joking about adding nitrous for 10+ years now...but that wants the pistons setup looser and that tends to make them rattle a bit at start up.  It also wants the rings gapped looser so leak down suffers and cranking compression and idle vacuum with it....so .....

.....this build is getting gapless rings which takes the compression/vacuum issue off the table leaving rattling pistons.  My piston spec sheet says .0035" min clearance which is right on the rattle line but if the pistons were 4032 alloy it would be loose enough for mild spray....and for some reason I thought they were, but they aren't they are 2618 which is stronger but expands more than 4032 so at 0035 spray would be (mostly) right out.

As I was busy honing I was doing my normal check with a feeler gauge until its close then confirm with an inside mic because those are the tools I have.  I wasn't loving the feeler gauge feel and the mic was telling me things I was sure I believed so I bought a low to almost mid range bore gauge and took off their indicator and fitting the really nice 10th indicator I have...and yeah, the hone job was coming out terrible.

the tops were the biggest and already a bit oversize, and inch down the lowest and 2-3 thou under the top, a little out of round too just to make it more fun.

Well that s**ks.......

So I took the rough stones and cut them down to about an inch and a half in length and more rpm with a lot less pressure I got the 1st cylinder pretty good...but its now 1.2ish over my target size with a little more more left to do, so 1.5 over say.

Another buddy is lending me an actual sunnen hone head.  He basically says the one I have is a POS and what did I expect using it......he makes a very strong case that felt wipers pure evil,  so they should be right when they are done just bigger than I planned.

hmmmmm...that led to a full day of internet reading.  First thing, the piston spec sheet doesn't say set the pistons at 3.5 clearance, it says 3.5 min, and that is at the very high side of there specs based on bore size, probably because of my rpm which make heat.  I set them up at 3.5 last time but all my cylinders came out scuffed.  A 308 buddy also did his pistons at 3.5 and sent me this pic

He says he things it happened when he over heated a little....but overheating is a pretty common thing...and min mean minimum, they says another 1-3 may be needed in more extreme applications.  The turbo guys set them up at 6 typically for example.

The piston makers have all started supplying pistons like these with the skirts coated with a compressible/abradable coating and saying its basically god's gift to pistons because it lets you set the actually metal to metal clearance safe then to coating prevents rock and the rattle that comes with it.  The rattle wears things out a bit faster but the big issue now seems to be it triggers the knock sensors all the newer cars have.  The coating fixes that.

All this is me getting to trying to justify using the cylinders which are going to finish at least 1.5, may 2 over my original size target.....which it turns out is a fine number and much safer than what I was planning.  and It helps me justify sending the pistons out https://www.line2linecoatings.com/ for coating.......

.......and it makes it nitrous safe. 

Sounds like a win win win to me!

Belated thanks for the clarification on the whole honing process and the cylinder/engine construction. I feel like your motorcycle experience was likely good preparation for this Ferrari work - seems that it's more like a GSXR1000 than an LS.

For my CBX I had the pistons ceramic coated: thermal barrier coating for the crowns, and dry film lubricant for the skirts. I had the combustion chambers and valves done with the TBC as well. For a vintage air-cooled I6 engine making ~120 hp/L as it sits out in the breeze (with a temperature gradient from the outboard to inboard cylinders), I thought it would be a good idea to take every marginal gain I could get in terms of thermal management and friction (my goals are for good street manners and longevity, not outright power). I also put an oversized oil cooler on the bike and used a thermostat to keep it in check.

I don't have any hard evidence to go by in my application, but the bike exceeded expectations on the dyno and I just feel good knowing that the engine went together with the best possible chance of staying together for a long time.

Plus I got these photos out of it:

In reply to Syscrush :

Pretty......everything I read says its good but sadly its not in budget for now 

I'm re-doing my honing setup before continuing.  I ordered a chunk of aluminum and will use it to make a holder that matches the block so the cylinder is fully supported.  Then that will get mounted on the coolant pump/tank setup from the my saw that that I haven't used in years to keep the stones are clean as possible and everything as cool as possible and maybe add a bucket as a spray guard to keep me and the shop floor as clean as possible.  I'll be back to honing in a couple days.

Still working on the honing fixture but look what showed up today, Tach stickers!  and they look really good, seem to fit right, they sent 2 full sets plus extras of the white and more extras of the tiny white stuff.  

In reply to mke :

I cant seem to find it....

Where/who/how are you redoing the faces? I have always wanted a special aftermarket gauge cluster that is long gone for my neon. You seem to be doing it!

Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mke :

I cant seem to find it....

 

Where/who/how are you redoing the faces? I have always wanted a special aftermarket gauge cluster that is long gone for my neon. You seem to be doing it!

And I've always wanted a tach that goes to 11.   

These guys make the stickers...rub on transfers actually

RubOnTransfers

you paint the back ground then lay the transfers where you want, then rub on the the ones you want so you're suppose to be able to slided them around up until you rub it down so they are easier to align then a normal sticker they say, and thinner.  There are extra numbers on the sets for alingment...they can make a 3 color single transfer but its more money.  These were $75 I think it was.

This thread has other options too

Anyone design and print your own gauge faces ?

Thank you sie!!

Spent basically all day making a way to complicated honing fixture....honing will resume tomorrow.

Turned on the pump this morning and spray oil everywhere....added a bucket but there wasn't any good way to handle the bottom so it dribbled all over the floor....eventually put the whole setup inside a bin.  Oil contained.

I started with a scrap cylinder and spent all morning chasing out of round before realizing  it was the clamping nuts on the fixture, hand tight is fine, touching it with a wrench is not!  That means there is a delicate balance off holding the cylinder vs spinning the cylinder with the hone, but second attempted cylinder is within about .0005 total runout right now and looking pretty good.  This was the one that needed to most metal removed so small mistakes wouldn't matter and right now it needs about another 1.5 thou to get to where the others will likely clean up.

I'm not going to post a pic of me quickly removing out of round with a drum sander because doing anything like that would be WRONGand likely incur ferrari tech Wade's (who lent me a proper sunnen hone which is WAY better, as in not even comparable, to the $150 lisle I was using) wrath so .......but I hear you can remove 2-3 thou of out of round from 1 end of a cylinder in less than a minute that way....shhhhhhh  ;) 

The great thing about doing 12 cylinders is that you know that the ROI on making fixtures and jigs is gonna be awesome.