FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

I got a Vue column for $40ish and a Prius controller (doesn't have the return issues of GM controllers) for $26 shipped.

 

I'll sell it for way under $1800

yeah.....but for $1800 get you a kit that bolts into a 308 (other than requiring a hole cut), reads speed from the speedo line to make assist speed proportional and lets the user adjust assist to suit.  It is a pretty nice kit....but I don't have 1800 to spend on it....that is project budget for a year!

I did a little reading, and do mean little, but didn't find the CAN codes for the toyota units so while it looks really easy to get it working I wasn't sure how easy it was going to be to make the unit adjustable and speed sensitive?  that was my fear there.  

The fiesta unit I bough looks like a pita to separate the controller which I'll probably need to do for space... guess. 

I'm kind of assuming the little controller box I bought is outputting the speed signal.  The one I bought is "automatic", its reading the strain gauge and telling the controller to output a proportional assist, which is probably the same as the toyota box does in standalone mode....but I'm thinking I'll be able to see the signals going back and forth, then set the ECU to replace the ebay controller and supply real info rather than simulated.  That is the theory anyway.

Another thought I've had is buy a controller new from the Chinese unit.  It would come with all the CAN codes and everything else needed to make it work properly.  I'll probably head down that path if end up struggling to make the ford control behave properly. 

In reply to mke :

They key with the Prius unit is that it does not require CAN input to function well.  You give it power and ground and it works.

If you want to get FANCY, then, you already know what those options are.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

If you want to get FANCY, then, you already know what those options are.

Well of course I want to get FANCY!  

Seriously though, thank you for the options.  I'm not sure it would have occurred to me to mix and match motors and controllers.  I saw some pics of the prius and slightly smaller yaris units that might be easier to fit than the fiesta unit.

The easy answer is just swap out the column with anything power that is about the right length but I really don't want to change the look or controls and the ferrari column has the car's vin on it because why not I guess.  So the thought is try to keep a lot of the stock column but maybe splice something onto it.

Why is a different rack with the same column not an option, the particular geometry? Then it's just a joint connection.

bluej (Forum Supporter) said:

Why is a different rack with the same column not an option, the particular geometry? Then it's just a joint connection.

Yes, that is certainly an option if I can find a suitable EPS rack.  Now that I know its at least possible to swap controllers this is more viable as I probably don't need to focus only on units I know hack been cracked.

I installed the timing chain this morning and the engine refused to turn in either direction....it used to be it would only turn in the direction I fed the chain from during assembly which was weird enough.  After a couple hours I found the issue hidden behind a chain guide in the timing cover....a groove worn in the casting

That had to be there from the non-modified days, at least that's what I'm telling myself because I had the locking up from my first assembly which I assume was casued by things not laying exactly as they did and chain in groove turns, chain out of groove locks is the thought.  Anyway, ground away the groove and the engine turns fine in both directions for the first time.  Yay.

mke said:

But for now, back to the engine. I dropped the crank in last night so I can start playing with the timing chain. When I torn it apart I dropped the timing chain drive and it broke.....I suspect it was already cracked and for sure I could have welded it but I had a weak moment a couple years ago and bought a replacement ($100! from the salvage yard for just the housing....basically nothing ferrari is under $100 at the salvage yard -we aren't even allowed to call then junkyards ) so last night I swapped the bits over. It probably won't fit.....I remember having trouble with the gears being too tight and binding on the 1st assemble and using a mallet and a couple other "ticks" to sort it.....which is probably how the housing got cracked in the first place. 1st up today is make sure that's working right without involving any hammers to speed thing up.

 

forgot this bit...the new timing chain drive assembly popped right on with no issue at all....I'll bet ferrari fit the original with a hammer, they are kind of know for stuff like that.  I remember being really surprise there was an issue because the way the block warped meant I did no cutting at all in the front/rear mains and I was thrilled when I realized that would be the case which lead to shock when the timing chain drive didn't fit.  But $100 part+zero effort and it does :)

The piston coating place ran my card so I assume they are done and on their way home but McMaster is saying the lapping bar will ship 3/15-3/22 so I have at least a week, time to go pull the cylinders back out and see if I can sort out whatever is wrong there while I wait....assuming I don't completely distract myself with power steering nonsense :)

In reply to mke :

Were it my car, I'd have an electric column over an EPS rack.  The rack-based systems seem hell-bent on eliminating steering feel, which would be an utter shame on a mid engined car.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Plus I THINK as not easy as doing the column is looking its still easier than finding a proper replacement rack and fitting it in without moving frame members.

I do wonder if the rack vs column is more about the turning the design?  When I was googling I saw stuff like ford explorer racks and a lot of stuff like that is sold to moms who wan tot to ride nice and be easy to drive. maybe?  or as you suspect its just inferior....I don't know.

I was reading something about feel the other day...don't recall if it was an article or a post, but the gist was the idea that modern cars don't have any steering feel had a lot to do with modern car don't have a lot of weird vibrations the feel.  I think it was about a F458 having a lot of assist and very little wheel movement (like 1.33 turns) and the first reaction was "oh my god this is awful!" followed by feel fast lap times and more understanding for why its like that. 

This is all what got me thinking that being able to adjust the assist is probably required to get a nice setup though.

mke said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Plus I THINK as not easy as doing the column is looking its still easier than finding a proper replacement rack and fitting it in without moving frame members.

I do wonder if the rack vs column is more about the turning the design?  When I was googling I saw stuff like ford explorer racks and a lot of stuff like that is sold to moms who wan tot to ride nice and be easy to drive. maybe?  or as you suspect its just inferior....I don't know.

I was reading something about feel the other day...don't recall if it was an article or a post, but the gist was the idea that modern cars don't have any steering feel had a lot to do with modern car don't have a lot of weird vibrations the feel.  I think it was about a F458 having a lot of assist and very little wheel movement (like 1.33 turns) and the first reaction was "oh my god this is awful!" followed by feel fast lap times and more understanding for why its like that. 

This is all what got me thinking that being able to adjust the assist is probably required to get a nice setup though.

Whether it's true or not, at one of the BMW CCA gatherings I was at, a guy from BMW NA was blaming a lot of the changes in steering feedback on dialing out tram lining with wide, large diameter wheels. 

2 of the cylinders had spigots a little bigger than the rest and I think they were good but the other 10 got cleaned, roughed up, cleaned, jbweld.  Who knew it came in tubes that big, 10oz! so I knew I'd have plenty.  there will only be about 2 thou on the diameter on most when I'm done but a couple had a little taper and will end up with about 2-, which must be the ones that measured awful.

That needs 24 hours so on too removing those little oil tube with a slide hammer.  The 1 came right out, the other needed a couple tries but its good its out as the hole is all corroded and looking like its on borrowed time.

Then on to cylinder flanges not fitting.  I didn't cut the final sizes on the cylinder bores in the block a machine shop did, and I never measured then either, I just used the sheet they send me...I know..I know.  The spigots are all pretty good and pretty close to each other but up top there is about 4 thou big to small and the 3 smallest the cylinder didn't real fit in....what to do?  I decided that since they were so close and the cylinder do tap in that I could probably sort it with a bit of time and emery paper.  Tap the cylinder in, see where it hit, sand it away, try again, repeat until sorted.  On all 3 most of the issue was toward the front of the engine indicating the top holes were not completely in line with the spigot holes but its sorted now.  

I'm a little torn about whether or not to torque the bearing caps on and recheck everything because I suspect the head studs deform things in the opposite direction.....this might be a sleep on it question.

In reply to mke :

A lot of it IS the calibration, to be sure, but some of it is there being a lot of friction inside the motor drive mechanism.

One eye opener was when I was working on a GM with a power rack, with the engine running while lifted up to working height, and I tried to turn the steering by grabbing a tire and turning it.  Nope.  Could NOT do it.  With the ignition off it was super easy to turn, but with the engine running, the rack would REFUSE to let anything move it but the steering wheel.  The power assist would resist it.  That is 100% a calibration issue.

I haven't tried that on anything else, but that is a hardcore recipe for zero steering feel.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

One eye opener was when I was working on a GM with a power rack, with the engine running while lifted up to working height, and I tried to turn the steering by grabbing a tire and turning it.  Nope.  Could NOT do it.  With the ignition off it was super easy to turn, but with the engine running, the rack would REFUSE to let anything move it but the steering wheel.  The power assist would resist it.  That is 100% a calibration issue.

Ha!  If that's true I could install any rack I please, no need to worry about getting length and height right to limit bump steer, just tell the controller "hold the bumper steer with this swap please!"  

The fiesta PS arrived and while I can kind of see it  up under the dash, the integrated control looks like a bugger to un-integrate which makes the toyoda units that have plug-on controllers look more appealing....not sure yet.

My thought is pull the stock  column apart and modify the shaft on the PS unit to fit in then bolt the new unit in place.

I had the GM unit opened up and it seemed not unreasonable to remove the controller from, but gaining any space would have required grinding on the case which may be the deal with the Fiesta piece?

Wish I had a robust enough dash structure to just make a column, it looks like I need to use a bracket to hold the EPAS unit in between the steering wheel and the steering box. But there's a lot more room underneath a Volvo Amazon dash than I see in that pic!

In reply to paddygarcia :

NO, there is not much room under/behind the dash....when I say "I THINK I can make something fit" that means clearance will be best measured with a feeler gauge and achieved with a hammer :)

To you're point, I'm pretty sure I can cut it apart and grind off the offending bits, I guess I'm mostly trying to figure out if I should.  I expect to have the car a long while so its always nicest if a part that can fail in the future just bolts on somehow...but I do enjoy cutting stuff up so......

paddygarcia said:

I had the GM unit opened up and it seemed not unreasonable to remove the controller from....

removing the controller is as simple as removing 3 screws.  The making it remote is just extending wires of locating the connectors and making jumpers...extending wires looks easy though.

Once that is do the under dash still looks possible but almost certainly means cutting off the OEM column mounts and installing new

Or it very much looks like installing it at the front bulkhead is doable.  the piece sticking up is not actually the rack, its an extender that can be removed so the PS box can bolt to the bulkhead in its place and the lower column u-joint attach to the box.  It means modifying the box but it should work.  I think that's the go.

I have bee kind of mentally going around with the idea of also grabbing a yaris EPS unit because its pretty "clean" looking with no bits sticking out all over it like the fiesta unit.....but I think I'm going to stick with the fiesta. 

The toyota stuff has about 5 wires it looks like going to the controller , 2 big to the motor and 3(?) small to the strain gauge.  pretty simple.

The ford has 23 going from the motor to the controller.  23!  I honestly have little idea what all the is doing but if my goal is a fancy system that steers magically I have to believe the ford unit provides more feedback to the ECU which gives me more control options.

Enough steering, pistons!

Beautiful.

quickener bought, $122 deliver and comes with a pair of weld on couplers I thought might be helpful....it was $115 without them.  This should be small enough to fit between the factory column mounting brackets.  I'm still worried about the length or everything but I figured get some parts and see what can be done.

I went out to the shop to work on the cylinders. Tuesday I tried to cut the jbweld and discovered the spigot end was going out of round.   I also discovered I can't machine jbweld to 1/2 a though thickness and I should have only coated the 4 that needed a couple thou....I'll need to just get it off the 6 its thin on.

I made a support for the chuck end but it seems also needed one in the spigot.  I made that tonight but it needs to be to a couple tenths so I had to let it cool to finish it....so I ripped apart the steering, pulled the peddle box so I can see behind it, found where a mouse had been living at some point, and realized all to vent hoses are disintegrating.

I bet you can chuck up those cylinders on the lathe and lay a 400 grit sanding block on the JB Weld while it spins to get your final dimensions.

Nader said:

I bet you can chuck up those cylinders on the lathe and lay a 400 grit sanding block on the JB Weld while it spins to get your final dimensions.

That is basically the plan.  skim cut true and then sand to sized.  I'm also pondering if I can mount the die grinder in the tool post and grind to size....but start simple I guess.  

I allowed myself to remain distracted.....still needs a little more cutting and I'm pretty sure I'll need to relocate the controller.