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mke
mke Dork
3/26/21 5:00 p.m.

If only I would share correct stuff..... I just went out to check something else and realized I'd misremembered spring lengths so what is on the way is wrong.  Damn it!

right length now coming (6in/8in to replace the longer 7/10 I currently have)...and now with fixed math I dropped to 800/500 which is about 2.5hz and more in line with conventional thinking.  Final answer :)

mke
mke Dork
3/26/21 7:02 p.m.

Here's the final installed cover...one little oopsy where the EPS until pops through that I'll cover with black tape. I just glued it in place and dusted it with a little satin black. I added thread to th blind side of the bracket and was able to tighten the pitch bolt. Just need to mount the control box now and find the missing bolt and its done.

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter)
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) Reader
3/26/21 7:16 p.m.
mke said:

The stupid bore gauge gave me a lot of bad news today....i do not like this tool  :( 

Last time when I went to assemble the engine the mains were pretty loose when I plastigauged them.  I had the bearing coated and it was bettersih but..now I understand why.  I had the block linebored and honed so I believed it to be correct.....my stupid bore gauge says they are 1-3 thou oversize, which of course explains the loose bearings.  This is checking perpendicular to the bolts/split line, they are 0-1 over as close to the split as I can check.  to be fair to the shop they didn't have the heads to install but to be fair to me, the average is still +0.5-1.5 thou over which is where they must have finished it.  I'll deal with this once the lapping bar arrives I guess.

The other bad news is liner bores....they aren't round.  I was told to expect 2 thou out and that is true for some, the worst is closer to 10 and totally unacceptable. hmmmmm.........the why things worked out the 12 liners that finished up the best was a set of 6 new and 6 old.  The 6 new are much rounder than the 6 old over-all.  I had 1 old left on the floor (I pitched the rest months ago) and 6 new to look at.  A change that I remember making is the spigot OD...the new is 1 thou larger nominal and even at that it might be looser than it should be and the one old I picked up had some taper in the spigot too.  So they are all tight at the deck which is easy enough to correct (remember I said they went in tight and I thought about fixing right then but waited to measure), and 6 have pretty loose spigots which seems like a job for JBweld since there is really no load, it just needs to fill the space and Amazon is bringing a pro size tube Thursday.  Hopefully that correct this issue.

Back to the engine a sec. I was wondering if the sump was structural? Does it have a sump?

mke
mke Dork
3/26/21 8:06 p.m.
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:

Back to the engine a sec. I was wondering if the sump was structural? Does it have a sump?

Yes, it has a sump.  The sump is part of the transmission and the mountor mounts are attached to it so yes its structural......

 

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter)
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) Reader
3/27/21 9:36 a.m.

yes

mke
mke Dork
3/27/21 3:41 p.m.

I went ahead and checked the torsional stiffness and my guess .25" was wrong,...1/2" for a GTS it looks like.  I'll check it again once the engine is in to be sure that weight works the way I'm assuming it does.  Pretty trivial with stock suspension but 20-25% on my setup....its actually less over bumps because the there is inertia but as you settle into a corner and are trying to use  the sway bars to to move loads front to back is when it really comes into play so now the goal is keep the F/R roll stiffness as close to inherently balanced as possible so that bars are as close to equal as possible and the twist never happens....at least that is how it work in my simple mind.....might be all wrong....

 

 

mke
mke Dork
3/29/21 9:13 a.m.

Saturday was house work and Sunday honestly wasn't all that productive.  I spent a total of about 3 recovering a a special bolt that holds the lower Steering u-joint. A bout a week ago I dropping it, it fell into the throttle pedal area which is actually a hole between the floor and belly pan and I hear it roll away.  I jacket the car at crazy angles (which is part of why I went ahead and checked the torsional stiffness, I already had everything out to do it).  I bought a new flexi magnet.....and eventually got it through a little access hole in the bottom...really boring.....

 

finished the final install of all the EPS steering stuff and dropped the pedal box in...and decided I wasn't happy with how close the clutch pedal was to the EPS unit.  I didn't really ever love the clutch pedal position...it was sitting height than the foot rest but It was adjusted down to the end of the thread on the master.....so I ordered a new die to let me run the threads down a bit more.  The will likely limit the travel of the master a bit, but I'm using a pedal stop to limit travel to protect the short throw hydraulic throw-out bearing anyway.  So when the die arrives I'll get more foot room.

Last was the stupid clutch switch...the cute little M8 switch is not a standard M8 so it didn't fit.  With the pedal box out I decided enough screwing around and retapped it to accept a a 308 brake pedal switch  and a little weld on the pedal arm to give it a place to hit.  Fixed.  The little allen bolt you can see in the second pic is the pedal stop...a bit neater than the standard bolt or block on the floor.

 

 

mke
mke Dork
3/30/21 6:48 p.m.

Everything is back together on my, clutch pedal lowed a bit, new fluid and brakes bled and the pedal doesn't move 1/2".  The EPS unit looks so small, but I was surprised how much space it takes from the pedals.....it seems ok...I'll need to drive it to be certain, you know, when I have an engine.  I guess this is done until I drive it and decide if I want to change the feel in any way.

mke
mke Dork
4/1/21 8:54 p.m.

The new front springs came, 6" long to replace the 7s I had figuring these are nearly double the stiffness so they will want to be shorter

ride height visually looks right at about 4.5" (which is about OEM stock if I'm not mistaken?) but I still need to look at a few thing to be sure this is ok as far as the suspension is concerned.  I had to pull the rear wheel to get that sitting right for the photo op as there is no engine weight and 2" shorter springs I ordered are on back order.

it is jut about as low as I can go even with the shorter springs, about 3/8" travel left on the collars which is about 5/8" left to drop.

 

That said, I'm not so sure I get to decide that suspension rebuilding is a next winter project....it very honest looks like E36 M3.  The the steering rack is leaking, the bellows torn, the rubber bit falling apart and showing every bit of their 37 years.

 

 

 

Rigante
Rigante New Reader
4/2/21 4:29 a.m.

This does look so good though, all the work will be worth it when the 12 is wailing through some canyons

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
4/2/21 11:00 a.m.

RE: Frame Flex

A half inch of frame flex WITH NO MOTOR IN IT, is horrible.

Repeat that test with the motor in, I'll bet it is significantly more!

Doesn't that degate any frequency analysis for spring rates?

 

Paint that frame white and inspect regularly for cracks.

Or you could do the Porsche trick and pressurize the frame with a gauge on it to tell you when it cracks.

mke
mke Dork
4/2/21 11:20 a.m.
bentwrench said:

RE: Frame Flex

A half inch of frame flex WITH NO MOTOR IN IT, is horrible.

Repeat that test with the motor in, I'll bet it is significantly more!

Doesn't that degate any frequency analysis for spring rates?

It was .350" no, motor....my guess is 1/2"-.5/8" with the motor but yes I will repeat....but I have seen much worse....and much better.

and yes it changes the dynamic for sure, mostly the 1 wheel bump as the frame motion could be up 30% with my new stiff springs...I say up t because there is a pretty big inertia term that goes with twisting the car compared to compressing the spring so slow rolling over a bump its 20%, hitting a bump at any speed it would be much less....5%ish (guessing honestly) depending on speed.

I think the bigger concern is f/r roll stiffness differences and trying to use them to transfer weight around....to your point that is not really going to work so this does change how I need to think about suspension tuning.  Luckily the car it inherently pretty well balanced so that will help mask this issue I hope.

 

2002maniac
2002maniac Dork
4/2/21 12:18 p.m.

I love this project so much. You live in a strange world where a 25-wire power steering controller is preferred over 3-wire!

mke
mke Dork
4/2/21 1:30 p.m.

In reply to 2002maniac :

LOL, I know...it seems like the extra wire MUST be doing something?

I saw this the other day, a lot of EPS unit info for everyone smart enough to want a 3 wire unit :)

ESP unit comparison info

mke
mke Dork
4/2/21 3:16 p.m.
mke said:
bentwrench said:

RE: Frame Flex

A half inch of frame flex WITH NO MOTOR IN IT, is horrible.

Repeat that test with the motor in, I'll bet it is significantly more!

Doesn't that degate any frequency analysis for spring rates?

It was .350" no, motor....my guess is 1/2"-.5/8" with the motor but yes I will repeat....but I have seen much worse....and much better.

and yes it changes the dynamic for sure, mostly the 1 wheel bump as the frame motion could be up 30% with my new stiff springs...I say up t because there is a pretty big inertia term that goes with twisting the car compared to compressing the spring so slow rolling over a bump its 20%, hitting a bump at any speed it would be much less....5%ish (guessing honestly) depending on speed.

I think the bigger concern is f/r roll stiffness differences and trying to use them to transfer weight around....to your point that is not really going to work so this does change how I need to think about suspension tuning.  Luckily the car it inherently pretty well balanced so that will help mask this issue I hope.

 

So now I'm staring at frame drawings of course.....

While looking at that I noticed they had all the suspension info too...but in true Italian form the manual is multiple cars an for sure the upper shock  mounts are wrong, modial I believe, so now I'm not sure about the rest of the info....there is nothing at all in the GTS/GBT supplement which is supposed to mean this stuff is right but.....I was trying to figure out how concerned to be about setting ride height to a lower than OEM point

 

Rigante
Rigante New Reader
4/2/21 4:56 p.m.

I'm always amazed at the apparent lack of triangulation in ferrari frames, Is there any chance to add any diagonals anywhere

mke
mke Dork
4/2/21 9:14 p.m.
Rigante said:

I'm always amazed at the apparent lack of triangulation in ferrari frames, Is there any chance to add any diagonals anywhere

What are you talking about?  There's at least 1 triangle! laugh

Now I wonder what are the odds that I'll  weld in a couple braces, add a bolt in shock support and call it done?....hmmmmm ...0%? LOL

I will need to drink on this a bit as its a tough problem.....

mke
mke Dork
4/3/21 6:52 p.m.

I found the correct suspension info...in the GT4 manual because, yeah...Italian.   Not as many dimensions as the other but at least to scale and it does give me the intended a-arm height numbers so I can figure out where I amt from OEM ride height when I get a chance.

mke
mke Dork
4/4/21 8:50 a.m.

Took a couple minutes and pasted the pic from the manual into onsahpe.  I started by just throwing on a few lines that are the given track to establish scale.

Then pasted in the pic eyeballing to my lines

Then eyeballed points at the suspension pivots and put lines through them....instant center 295.36mm

With a few dimensions added to fix the contact patch, a-arm lengths, upright and chassis a-arm mount distances and 1 to set the lower a-arm mount to ground (203.12 is where it came out in the manual drawing), I lowered the car 1" to 178mm

the instant center changes from 295 to 80mm....that does not seem ideal. ut I still need to mirror it to see what the roll center is doing. The lower chassis a-arm mounts are bolt-on and not quite long enough to get the camber up to 3 degrees (I'm told) so since I probably need to make new mounts anyway I'll spend a little (as in many hours :) ) figuring out exactly where the car is set now and  fiddling with finding a good location for the lower a-arm mount height....which will no doubt mess up the bump steer.....its always something. 

 

Edit...roll center changed from 78.6 to 45mm not as bad I thought.

Edit 2 - I typo'd the 1 inch drop in CAD....front roll center drops from 78.6 to 26.4 for a 1 inch ride height drop

mke
mke Dork
4/7/21 5:51 p.m.

I have been giving this a good deal of thought while preforming semi-mindless spring tasks around the house.....I think Put the springs on and call the suspension done enough to drive. Yes, the suspension bushings are in pretty poor condition but they are still there and I NEED to get the engine running.   Next fall I'll likely build a new suspension.  The 18in wheels give me a lot of space inside and the F430 rotors sit out much further than the 308 setup so I have a lot of room to reduce both the kingpin angle,scrub radius, and roll centers if I make new spindles and a-arms and if I make new a-arms I can get rid of all the silly rubber.   I may still change my mind..... and cut the suspension apart now but I'll try to be strong.......

 

I've got some thoughts on the frame and the just plain wrong location of silly little the factory fender flares....be.strong....you need and engine......

ejs262
ejs262 New Reader
4/7/21 6:24 p.m.
mke said:

I've got some thoughts on the frame and the just plain wrong location of silly little the factory fender flares....be.strong....you need and engine......

I can't count the number of times I've had to tell myself similar things, here lately, I've been trying to remind myself too, that perfect is the enemy of a job well done. Getting the car together and driving is more fun than having it in pieces and not, and "Perfect" tends to make it stay in pieces alot longer. 

Rigante
Rigante New Reader
4/8/21 5:50 a.m.

i think you need to drive it first, then pull it apart. although your 900bhp is going to show up the shortcomings pretty quickly

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand Dork
4/8/21 7:21 a.m.

It all comes down to what part of Ferrari ownership you find most rewarding.  If its the modifying then go ahead and rip the suspension apart.  If you think you're going to enjoy driving it then try and get ahead on the Honey Do list so you can get the engine togeather when the honing bar comes in.

mke
mke Dork
4/8/21 6:28 p.m.
APEowner said:

It all comes down to what part of Ferrari ownership you find most rewarding.  If its the modifying then go ahead and rip the suspension apart.  If you think you're going to enjoy driving it then try and get ahead on the Honey Do list so you can get the engine togeather when the honing bar comes in.

LOL...yeah, I think that it's probably pretty obvious to all but perhaps me that I really just like making stuff and the ferrari part let me justify spending more than I should, because its a ferrari.

There are 2 othe rpieces though. 1 is I'm a bit OCD and having an unfinished project makes me a bit crazy so I can't enjoy other projects while the engine sits unfinished.  The other part is I guess 2 fold too....I don't get to decide whether or not I do the Lana chores before the stuff I want to do, I do what I"m told or I pay a very high price.  The other part is that Lana is smart enough to know that spending money on the car that will never drive is stupid and after 13 or 14 years its gotten to the point that the only way to gt additional funding approved it to demonstrate it working.

The delayed lapping bar let me do the steering but last weekend I moved a fridge into the kitchen that doesn't fit in the cabinetry and fixing the cabinets almost certainly means adding a wall oven.....and the basement isn't finished....and a front door that in no way fits the existing opening.  The vital few weeks I needed to get the engine done and in the car may have slipped away at this point and I'm looking at 12 weeks of construction and yard work :(

Jay_W
Jay_W SuperDork
4/9/21 7:53 p.m.

Well, I thought I'd see what the latest is here, and yep, I still have no words...

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