FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Syscrush said:

So, do I understand correctly that you no longer have a smoking gun for the engine failure?

The root cause was almost certainly tight exhaust valve guides.  I thought cam timing may have contributed by getting things closer than they should have been and making any sticking valve more likely to hit but there is little doubt valves were sticking and hitting the undersize pockets and just a disaster waiting to happen.

I thought cam timing was also a great explanation for those graphs...but clearly that theory was BS.  

Now, after that was shot down I'm leaning toward the pistons were not fitting right in the out of round cylinders and something I was told years ago popped into my head.."parts don't wear-in, they wear out" seems to ring true.  The compression in most of the cylinders dropped significantly between my 1st and last readings, there was smoke blowing out the breather that wasn't there in the beginning

mean sound but smoking badly

I think the failure was the guides and the weird graph was the engine just wearing itself out or maybe badly synced TBs or both?  

Don't know, but I do know that even dying it sounded meaner than the perfectly running 365 engine in the other 308 V12 conversion 

mke said:

Syscrush said:

So, do I understand correctly that you no longer have a smoking gun for the engine failure?

Don't know, but I do know that even dying it sounded meaner than the perfectly running 365 engine in the other 308 V12 conversion 

I couldn't agree more!

clutch, starter cam end-covers cleaned and installed

Not exactly what I planned to do.  I planned to part the vee stuff on tonight so I could do TBs tomorrow because I like to look at it with TBs on but it was not to be.  First I realized the way the temp sensor was sitting there was no way to install the pigtail

also, there is no way to put the connector on the new oil pressure sending unit and also have the t'stat tube installed...Doh!

Amazon is bringing a 45 for the oil pres on Friday, I backed the coolant temp sensor off and filled the gap with 518 sealant, hopefully it doesn't leak.

Then then were the end cover gaskets....I must have said TR (later model) rather than testarossa (early model) because neither the cam covers nor the end covers were really right.....518 sealant again.  2 of the 4 end cover gaskets did fit fine and I got 12 of those not 2, best I can figure I must have typed 1 then realized I needed 2 and ended up asking for 12, but at least they fit

mke said:

  2 of the 4 end cover gaskets did fit fine and I got 12 of those not 2, best I can figure I must have typed 1 then realized I needed 2 and ended up asking for 12, but at least they fit

 

 I accidentally ordered an entire case of air filters for my Jeep instead of 1. At least now I have a life-time supply of air filters. 

Lets start with something interesting, how much does it weight ready to drop in? 

622lbs  The stock V8 is around 800 so I guess the Ti connecting rods paid off :)

now serious stuff.  After installing the bellhousing, I relearned that the flywheel cover goes on before the flywheel, so bellhousing, clutch flywheel off, cover on

Then everything else back on.

Then the cover..hmmm..usually pops right on... mallet, turn the engine, its going...ting....ting? what the hell is ting?...probably nothing, nuts on...well let me make sure it tuyrns right...eeeee....cover off

dented cover

Well that's it for engine install this weekend.  Pull the bearing to get the number so I can order in the morning.....I saw a bearing box in one of the bin, let me see what that is....its a replacement!  No idea why I have it or why I remember seeing it but there it is and tomorrow I can install it.

mke said:

dented cover

I think you mean "customized cover"!

This entire thing is beyond epic. I always smile when it comes back up to the top of latest topics. I even enjoy seeing what you are doing to your house because we all juggle these responsibilities. Hearing you go into the last minute thrash reminds me of so many times doing the same thing from SAE Mini Baja to Late Models to other self imposed project deadlines. Excited to see it in, take your time, you have done so much amazing work can't wait to see you complete this for the win. 

Syscrush said:

mke said:

dented cover

I think you mean "customized cover"!

I guess I mean something I need to repair as its already been modified and now I've damaged it.

Did a little.  
The bearing is replaced and gear drop gear cover installed and cover straightened out, it on easy as normal.  The coolant manifold is on.  The oil pres senor is back on.

I cleaned up the TBs and intakes so they are ready to install...but that is not an easy job with the fuel rail in-between them so I decided to do that first thing in the morning rat5her than rush it at night after a couple drinks.  The Vacuum hoses have fallen apart which I saw and ordered replacement silicone hose but amazon kind of let me down here, I got 2 or the 3 packs I ordered but #s now shows as lost....so I just did the math and I have enough to do the center 8 cylinders meaning I can proceed and add the 4 outer Sunday when the reordered pack arrives as those I can reach.

Last I opened all the other boxes which had 10 quarts of high zinc straight 30wt break-in oil, 2 (not fram) oil filters, a gallon of redline transmission oil, and 6 gallons of water free coolant. It5 looks to me like sunday will be the day the engine goes in and quite possibly next week end I will be ready to roll it out of the shop and start it up (notice I didn't say fir it up).

E36 M3's getting real.

water free coolant? I was under the impression that it's just not as good as a traditional coolant mix

In reply to Rigante :

FD RX-7 guys swear by the stuff.  Rotaries, especially turbo rotaries, see metal temperatures at the spark plugs in excess of 400F.  Normal coolants just boil there instead of taking heat out, NPG keeps pulling the heat away for a lot longer before film boiling starts.

A car does run higher coolant temps with NPG but that is because, I think, it is removing more heat from the engine instead of boiling locally at the exhaust ports/valves.  The coolant is hotter because the engine is cooler.  Anecdotally, someone reported switching on his small block Chevy-engined tow vehicle (horrible cooling situation) and on one grade, he noted that coolant temps exceeded 295F.  BUT. The engine was also not knocking itself to death like it would before the change, proof that the combustion chambers and exhaust valves were running cooler than before.

Rigante said:

water free coolant? I was under the impression that it's just not as good as a traditional coolant mix

You're right its not actually as good of a coolant as it has lower heat capacity and it has a very high boiling point (330F? iirc) which they advertise makes it safer when in fact that makes it less safe as conventional coolant will not let the engine go above about 240F as long as there is any coolant left in the system to boil and its $45/gallon rather than $5 (assuming 50/50 water mix).  So those are the down sides.

On the up sides and the reason I decided use it  is corrosion.  I have corrosion everywhere coolant spilled.  I had leaking intake ports on the 1st assembly and got coolant and corrosion in the cylinders, the cam covers were a mess. I have corroded nuts and bolts to replace everywhere.  Corrosion  where the hoses fit to the aluminum barbs. Just  a mess after only a couple years.  This stuff won't make a mess of my hard work.  I'm also told that do to its lower surface tension it does a better job pulling heat from the engine, once you pump enough volume to make up for the lower heat capacity anyway....but my concern is corrosion.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Rigante :

FD RX-7 guys swear by the stuff.  Rotaries, especially turbo rotaries, see metal temperatures at the spark plugs in excess of 400F.  Normal coolants just boil there instead of taking heat out, NPG keeps pulling the heat away for a lot longer before film boiling starts.

I've had a couple high output turbo type engine builders tell me similar things that they believe water based coolant is prone to localized boiling which to detonation.  One I spoke to will not warranty any engine that is running water based coolants...which might be an extreme example

Anyway, I didn't pick it for any hp related reason on this build....I'm just sick of cleaning off corrosion.

I'll add this...god bless the challenge guys who get a car to the track for $2k.  I got a talking to yesterday and was asked why I spent $700 without asking.  

What?  I didn't spend $700!  Lets see i bought some sealant, like 4 different kinds, ok, $50.  Vacuum hose...$50.  oil and filters...$100.  Coolant...$300.....hmm maybe I did spend $700 and all I'm doing is bolting together an engine I already have and dropping it in the car I already have 

mke said:

What?  I didn't spend $700!  Lets see i bought some sealant, like 4 different kinds, ok, $50.  Vacuum hose...$50.  oil and filters...$100.  Coolant...$300.....hmm maybe I did spend $700 and all I'm doing is bolting together an engine I already have and dropping it in the car I already have 

LOL

In reply to mke :

It's disgusting how it all adds up.  I stopped counting at $150 for the throttle linkage to make a carburetor that I already owned and a manifold I already owned work on a car I already owned...

the answer is separate finances    you have a combined pot for house and kid stuff then his and hers, saves a lot of questions

This morning did not go exactly to plan.  First, I had calculated my vacuum hose lengths to work out perfect with 10ft rolls, but after I started cutting I realize they are called 10ft, but are actually 3m, so 2" short....delay to figure how to get things sorted.

ok, time to...wait... 2 injector to intake  are o-rings missing

A search commenced.  I found 1 on the bench which gave me hope but after an hour or so of looking plus looing to see if by chance I has a spare hiding any where, nope. think...think....I can install the intake in the car, I'll install today and get to the intake in a few days when I have the o-rings. plan!

Car on jack stands, engine off the bench.  I'm thinking the front headers maybe can go on before the engine is full in so I can reach all the nuts so I grab the headers, chucks of valve seat fell out of 1.  Grab the other 2...what the???

yes it is, the missing o-ring!

Ok, back to intakes. then but its getting later and I'm going to be missed but...goop on

stage the intakes

the fuel rail must tuck under linkage

kind of line stuff up

Sacrifice a large male goat then push

inspect in the ports to see if each still has and injector cuz that is the best you can do at inspecting what just happened

now its time for the bolts and some would argue a large female goat should now also be sacrifices but if you grease the bolts to kind of hold them in place when you are staging you can install them without a sacrifice

and can reach them sort of although the new thicker silicone vacuum hose makes it harder

and that's it, intakes and TBs installed!

So, goat curry tonight?

Looking good!

I have given up sleeping for days now.  Please continue.

After following this build for years, I am so excited right now....

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

I have given up sleeping for days now.  Please continue.

Me too...woke up at 4am this morning and gave up trying to sleep at 6

here we go!

I figured out I could install the headers once its part way in WAAAAY easier than once its actually in

and in the the car, not bolted but in at least.

670lb with everything that attaches to the engine included

Wow this build has really blown my mind.