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Lof8 - Andy
Lof8 - Andy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/6/21 10:37 a.m.

Sounds Amazing!

Lof8 - Andy
Lof8 - Andy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/6/21 10:38 a.m.

Sounds amazing!

mke
mke Dork
12/6/21 11:26 a.m.
Syscrush said:

To get those 12 vacuum traces, do you run your 12 individual MAP sensors to your ECU, or are you timing the single output from the MultiMAP using the cam angle sensor?

Originally I was trying to pull the 12 out of the single multiMAP signal but it was eating a ton of ECU processor time (I work at the logic level, not the machine code level) so I now really have 13 MAP signals.  The engine runs on the multiMAP output then I read those same 12 sensors with a little box that converts to digit and sends them to the ECU via CAN as I don't have enough AN (analog) inputs in the ECU for this. 

The signals coming directly off the sensors are not very useful because they swing up and down wildly so I put a heavy running average type damper on them which causes 2 problems. 1 is the average is a very low signal because most of the time the cylinder is not pulling vacuum and is what I avoid with the multiMAP.  The second issue is lag, to get them reasonably smooth I'm using a factor of 0.99 meaning 99% is the old valve and 1% is the latest reading.  I read the sensor about every 10ms, so  1 full second to react to a change.

I think I solved both problems thought as you can see them pretty well behaved and following the main MAP reading nicely.  I read them, average the hell out of them individually, then I take then take the average of all 12 and say that must match the main MAP reading, then I use that correction factor on each individual signal and BAM! I have 12 readings all calibrated and reacting quickly....I think smiley, but its only possible because I have the multiMAP output.

Next step is use those 12 signals to get the mixture in all 12 cylinders the same regardless of how out of sync the TBs are so it runs nice, then I'll set a warning light to let me know if they are say more than 10-% out of sync and its time to adjust them.  That's the plan anyway. 

Syscrush
Syscrush Reader
12/8/21 9:21 a.m.

Now that you mention it, I seem to remember you mentioning the CAN converter at some point - and I remember not quite getting the point. It all makes sense now - super cool.

mke
mke Dork
12/8/21 6:43 p.m.

I'm hoping to have mine driving this weekend but rather than keep you all waiting I'm going to go ahead and share this:

 

AlmosN8kd
AlmosN8kd New Reader
12/9/21 7:02 a.m.
mke said:

I'm hoping to have mine driving this weekend but rather than keep you all waiting I'm going to go ahead and share this:

 

Honestly, I like your version much better.

 

Long time lurker (started following this build over on Ferrari Chat), first time commenter.  It has been great watching this thing come together, glad to see you've gotten it running.  

mke
mke Dork
12/10/21 12:41 p.m.

Ok so.....

Fuel pressure issue tracked down to a solid state relay, replaced with mechanical relay and problem solved

Wednesday I tried the cylinder MAP correction....it was outputting gibberish

Thursdays tired again,  no...its error doubling not error correcting

Friday, its running pretty good with the ecu auto matching mixtures.  I spent a little time on tuning so after I pull it and fix whatever is causing the rear bank to be running on oil rather the gasoline it should fire right back up so for those worried that this project was wrapping up....nope!

 

 

golfduke
golfduke Dork
12/10/21 1:25 p.m.

sucky...  but at least you're still inching forward, right?

 

mke
mke Dork
12/11/21 9:18 a.m.

The consensus is that what I'm seeing is Evans coolant so step 1 is K-Seal as its the only product on the evans list of compatible sealants that says it seals head gaskets. The reviews are about 2:3 so in an hour when I don't feel bad making noise in it goes.....then I expect Sunday I'll start pulling the engine to replace the gaskets but today it mechanic in a bottle day.

As for offending cylinder, its really more which is the most offending...6, then 3, then 7, then 12. I'd heard the end cylinders are the worst because the forces are unbalanced as the bolts clamp on 1 side not both....this result would agree with that. 6 is pretty bad and didn't always start once I ran out of ether which I guess is why I thought it was getting better and might be just the buggered mixtures. 3 concerns my a little as it could be something else...but maybe not

here they are, all rich running around 0.9 lambda but at least starting to look similar, they were literally black and white a couple days ago...stupid ITBs


 

mke
mke Dork
12/11/21 11:02 a.m.

the k-seal christmas miracle

 

birdmayne
birdmayne GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/11/21 11:18 a.m.

That's so sick... i love this

mke
mke Dork
12/11/21 6:00 p.m.

sadly I think i was over optimistic and the Christmas miracle was ether.  When I have clean plugs and start with ether all the cylinders run...and burn the waterless coolant and I see a little blue smoke.  when the cylinders cut out the coolant vaporizes in the hot pipe and I see a cloud of white smoke.  I tried some more of the one they say is stronger just now and will do a couple more heat cycles tomorrow....then I assume monday I'll order new gaskets and start pulling the motor.  2-3 weeks.

I did drive it around the block.  The new steering felt good the new final drive ratio felt odd...1st gear and reverse  are quite fast, the engine was running awful, very very lean..please make it home, please make it home....but I drove it for the first time in 15 years and the 1 car I past the guy had his thumb up and head out the window looking at it

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
12/11/21 6:05 p.m.

Is there a way to pressure test the motor before you install it?

mke
mke Dork
12/11/21 6:13 p.m.
bentwrench said:

Is there a way to pressure test the motor before you install it?

of course and the manual says its required.....DOH!

I've had a few emails from various ferrari tech types privately admitting to the lengths they go to seal these head gaskets.  Permatex aviation sealant for example....it used to be call form-a-gasket but they still sell it as aviation sealant as its the only approved sealer for sealing air cooled piston plane engines...and apparently ferrari head gaskets as its non-hardening and I'm told just works.  

ejs262
ejs262 New Reader
12/11/21 8:27 p.m.
mke said:

but I drove it for the first time in 15 years and the 1 car I past the guy had his thumb up and head out the window looking at it

while much of the news is a total bummer, this is always a huge milestone, I hope it felt as good as I imagined it did, I know when I drove my POS Fiero for the first time in years, I was giddy. 

 

I've used the aviation sealer, you'll want some kind of solevent to clean it up with handy, it's super messy, I wasn't the biggest fan because of that, but it did appear to work. 

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
12/11/21 8:51 p.m.

Aviation Sealant also has a warm, leathery "cozy-hug" smell which brings back fond memories.  I've never done drugs, but I do like my solvents.

mke
mke Dork
12/11/21 8:56 p.m.
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

Aviation Sealant also has a warm, leathery "cozy-hug" smell which brings back fond memories.  I've never done drugs, but I do like my solvents.

yes!  I remember seeing it on the to high for us kids to reach shelf in my father's garage 50 years ago. I have a bottle....I just never thought to put it on a head gasket.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
12/11/21 9:08 p.m.

I've found it effective on SBC 0.015" steel shim head gaskets.

mke
mke Dork
12/12/21 8:25 a.m.
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

I've found it effective on SBC 0.015" steel shim head gaskets.

The guy that mentioned it to me is using MLS so similar but I have composite....still might be worth trying

forgot....the new larger but manual brakes were good enough that that I didn't notice them.  I was home and car in the garage before I remembered I was supposed to be paying attention so I'm going to call the fact that I didn't even notice they are now manual proof that they are just fine that way.

I'm not so sure the Evans coolant will be staying.  I know I'm having head gasket problems so there is probably air in the cooling system but right now the engine is getting pretty hot.  I currently have a 180F t-stat but replacing it really wouldn't change anything as it doesn't look like the the radiator and fan can get the coolant temp below about 100 sitting at idle, admittedly high idle, but idle and the drive (bottom graph wasn't better.  Also note the oil pressure falling as coolant temp rises as you'd expect with straight wt oil....but it ends under 10psi, oil temp gauge touching 200F and that is from the tank so hotter in the engine hence the low pressure.

 

Greg Smith (Forum Supporter)
Greg Smith (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/12/21 9:38 p.m.

In reply to mke :

I absolutely *love* the huge amount of data collection you're able to pull and use here. 

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
12/12/21 9:59 p.m.

FWIW, we tried Evans in the pre-war cars at work because it was supposed to be the solution to all problems.

We went back to using the old green-death antifreeze at 100% strength with much better results than Evans.

In unpressurized systems (the three that we tried) the Evans foamed up and overflowed everywhere which left the system low and needing to be topped up with more Evans, not easy to find anywhere.

In the same systems water / antifreeze mix foamed and overflowed as well but all you need to do to top up is find a water hose.

Using 100% antifreeze, no more foaming and overflow, plus if you need a top-up you can put in as much water as you need to get where you're going and go back to antifreeze.

Pressurized systems will probably have different results but we never tried it in them because they work so well in the first place.

Syscrush
Syscrush Reader
12/13/21 1:16 p.m.

Congrats on getting a taste of success. The wheel, brake, and steering changes were each big enough on their own that almost any other owner would run a thread for any one of them, and that test ride seems to have validated all 3. And whatever other issues you're having, there are no scary noises coming from that engine, so there's no question that you've moved the ball downfield.

I am pretty sure that everyone reading this is confident that you'll be able to keep making progress and get this thing sorted out.

Shavarsh
Shavarsh Reader
12/13/21 4:23 p.m.

First drive! that's amazing well done!

dave215
dave215 New Reader
12/13/21 5:11 p.m.

Might be a dumb question but why not re torque the heads ?

mke
mke Dork
12/13/21 5:42 p.m.
dave215 said:

Might be a dumb question but why not re torque the heads ?

That is exactly what I decided to try  about 2pm yesterday, moments before my attention was redirected to the basement floor sad 

I'm not sure if I can pull the cam covers without first pulling the intakes but the plan is pull the rear cam cover and if the bolts move then retorque both heads and retry, if they are tight, then the heads need to come off.

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