FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

mke said:

dave215 said:

Bummer .Hopefully the problem will be  easy to identify and fix , once apart  .

In the grand scheme this seems like a teething issue....hopefully.

I'm leaning toward the solution of painting the head gaskets with sealant even though I know in my heart its wrong because I'm thinking this is a problem of my own making....the 86mm bore size. I know people are putting together 89mm bore engines with my bore spacing but I think they are also using the newer style MLS head gaskets that are coated everywhere with viton or similar. I didn't pay up for custom tooling to make those so I'm using the older type composite that is a gasket with flame-rings and in my case the flame rings basically touch each other.

so the only thing keeping coolant out of the cylinders in the between the cylinders area is the flame-ring, which is not a gasket really but more heat/pressure/flame protection for the gasket....and then I used the evans coolant which seems to be extra good at leaking so in my mind this is where sealant becomes the only real path foreword because I effectively don't have any gasket between the cylinder...at least that is what I'm thinking.

 

I'm a bit baffled why there would be coolant in the area between bores. Does the coolant not stay in the galleries? Is your head or block warped, causing coolant to flow easily in the space the gasket is supposed to fill?

edwardh80 said:

I'm a bit baffled why there would be coolant in the area between bores. Does the coolant not stay in the galleries? Is your head or block warped, causing coolant to flow easily in the space the gasket is supposed to fill?

Remember these are drop-in wet liners.  There is an o-ring on the bottom to keep coolant out of the sump but on top there is no seal other than the head gasket and about a .010" gap liner to liner so the head gasket needs to seal the head to the block to keep coolant in the engine but also seal to the liner to keep coolant out of the bore.  That latter is where I seem to have an issue

Old pic to show liners, no one think the engine is out yet and there is no plan to fully tear is down

Gaskets and header wrap are ordered and my email says the coil connectors are here....need to check the mail box.  Lots to do......

mke said:

edwardh80 said:

I'm a bit baffled why there would be coolant in the area between bores. Does the coolant not stay in the galleries? Is your head or block warped, causing coolant to flow easily in the space the gasket is supposed to fill?

Remember these are drop-in wet liners.  There is an o-ring on the bottom to keep coolant out of the sump but on top there is no seal other than the head gasket and about a .010" gap liner to liner so the head gasket needs to seal the head to the block to keep coolant in the engine but also seal to the liner to keep coolant out of the bore.  That latter is where I seem to have an issue

Old pic to show liners, no one think the engine is out yet and there is no plan to fully tear is down

Gaskets and header wrap are ordered and my email says the coil connectors are here....need to check the mail box.  Lots to do......

How is the hight of the top of the cylinder to the deck (stick out) controlled?  On the wet liner engines I'm familiar with there are shims to adjust that.

lost track of whether the engine is still running, Is there any kind of a dye that you could add before disassembly that would expose the leak path when you pull the heads?

APEowner said:

How is the hight of the top of the cylinder to the deck (stick out) controlled?  On the wet liner engines I'm familiar with there are shims to adjust that.

Tight tolerances.  Shims could be made I guess but that is not how these go together.  I mic'd them all pre head install and will re-check the heights once the heads are off....and then cover the gaskets with sealant an it shouldn't matter 

NOHOME said:

lost track of whether the engine is still running, Is there any kind of a dye that you could add before disassembly that would expose the leak path when you pull the heads?

not running.  Sunday I drained the coolant and oil and started removing parts.....6-8 hours more and it will be out of the car and on the bench.  I assume gaskets will be the delay so maybe get the headers wrapped this weekend, maybe make whatever plugs I need to pressurize it?  Maybe back in the car the end of the month or beginning of Feb?  Something like that schedule wise.....the weather is awful this time of year so march/april before it needs to be ready to drive but I'd like to have the old rotted suspension bushings replaced by then too and its actually safe to drive....and I need to order the new motor mounts as now would be a great time to install them....the list keep growing 

To the question from the other day, I'm pretty sure it was leaking from the get go but also that it got worse after heat cycles.

Back in the day when only dry composition head gaskets were available,

we used to spray the gaskets with aluminum paint and install wet.

In reply to bentwrench :

Plan!  slath up the head gasket with something and slap it back together! 

I ordered the Testaroosa motor mounts today so I'll get that taken care of while the engine is out so its safe to drive when it goes back in.

Copper Spray? I've only used it once...but the gaskets don't leak

Shavarsh said:

Copper Spray? I've only used it once...but the gaskets don't leak

Somebody else suggested it to.  I've done the aluminum spray paint thing and I kind of assume the copper spray is similar....basically paint.  My fear is that these liners move and breaks the seal. 

The aviation sealant is non-hardening and should tolerate some motion and I know for sure it fixed this problem on several other ferrari engines so it just seems the lowest risk path and that is important because I'm being told I'm already over budget for the YEAR on the car so if this doesn't work....I may miss the season waiting for a new budget.

In reply to mke :

I'll look into the aviation sealant for the future, good to know!

I've done aluminum paint and I've done the copper head gasket spray. The copper seems a lot more skookum, though probably still paint.  I was impressed using it, though.

Not sure one size fits all on sealing solutions .It would appear that there are two issues -the water port gasketing is compromised and the fire ring/crush ring is also compromised .I get the aviation stuff for the water ports -big ? on the cylinder crush ring

Copper spray would definitely be my preference over the aviation sealant. It's tacky enough that you shouldn't place the coated gasket until you're ready for it to live there.. Use Curil K2 if you have a sick need to brush it on...

mke said:

I know for sure it fixed this problem on several other ferrari engines

Then it seems your path is clear. Good luck with it!

NOHOME said:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/j0XmQv6IDVQ?rel=0

 

Project farm JB welded a head on, and the engine ran for quite a while. not that I would recommend that here. 

mke said:

edwardh80 said:

I'm a bit baffled why there would be coolant in the area between bores. Does the coolant not stay in the galleries? Is your head or block warped, causing coolant to flow easily in the space the gasket is supposed to fill?

Remember these are drop-in wet liners.  There is an o-ring on the bottom to keep coolant out of the sump but on top there is no seal other than the head gasket and about a .010" gap liner to liner so the head gasket needs to seal the head to the block to keep coolant in the engine but also seal to the liner to keep coolant out of the bore.  That latter is where I seem to have an issue

Old pic to show liners, no one think the engine is out yet and there is no plan to fully tear is down

Gaskets and header wrap are ordered and my email says the coil connectors are here....need to check the mail box.  Lots to do......

Thanks for the explanation. How do the sleeves seal against the block at the bottom end? Do they rest on a step and you have to get the length right? Or are they just pressed in and snug against the sides of the parent bore?

In reply to edwardh80 :

there is an o-ring to seal the bottom...middle actually I guess. It get compressed when the head goes on the forces the liner full down.  The tolerance up top is very tight, the o-ring on the bottom allows more tolerance there.

In reply to mke :

Forgive my potential ignorance here, but does that mean that the head gasket clamping force is effectively supplied by o-ring squish rather than the head bolts or is there a hard stop for the cylinder liners as well?

and its out

 forgot to unhook the clutch line 

Bummer about the clutch line.  It makes me think, anyone who does engine out services on their Ferrari every 3-5 years by the book subjects their car to similar risks.  I think forgotten electrical connections probably tweaked the most, resulting in so many gremlins.  In fact, there's a >$1000 gold-coated terminal kit that's supposed to fix a lot of issues believed to be due to corrosion.  I personally think it fixes loose fasteners from excessive disconnect/reconnects and occasional tweaking.

thepope540 said:

In reply to mke :

Forgive my potential ignorance here, but does that mean that the head gasket clamping force is effectively supplied by o-ring squish rather than the head bolts or is there a hard stop for the cylinder liners as well?

Here you go.  There is a flange on top the hardstops in a counterbore in the block deck.  Then there is an o-ring (a "square"-ring actually) that seals at the base of the water galley above the spigot holes.  The o-ring is like .063" cross section so still a tight tolerance on it but it can move a few thou and be ok, the top of te liners are supposed to be like .001-.003 above the deck  so 1 thou total tolerance on the counterbore depth and the liner flange thickness....and stuff like this is why ferrari parts are expensive.

Got going removing the un-need O2 bungs, 1 headers done, 3 to go.

Tacking patch to extra filler rod so you can hold it while tacking it in place = mind blown. This goes in my personal TIL file. After seeing it done, it is so obvious. Thank you, mke!