FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

mke said:

In reply to dave215 :

it kind of depends on TPS.... at good vacuum its very clearly higher than everything else but there is always the question of is something wrong with the linkage.  In general thought its not pulling the vacuum the other cylinders are.

The ITB's do complicate readings .One thought since plug color is trending the right way .If some of the sealant is on the valve face and cause of low compression - more run time might dislodge sealant particles .Is it possible to send camera down the intake port ?

I don't recall if I posted this but before but getting good MAP signal from the multiMAP is pretty easy, you just hook it up.  There is some ripple but I use a running average to smooth that out which is the filtered or smoothing most ECU give you.

Getting the cylinder readings in the log above is harder.  When you read MAP on 1 cylinder its the same problem as when you use a small plenum hooked to several.  The cylinder pulls vacuum for 180 degrees max and the rest of the time it bleeds down to nothing for basically 540 degrees so if I average it I get about 1/4 true cylinder MAP.  I don't have any good crank angle based way to only read when I'm interested and its very hard to set limits of any kind because moving the throttle changes where the limits would be so then.  

What I do is cheat a bit.  I take a running average of each cylinder and of all cylinders.  Then I  compare the all cylinders average to the running average of the multiMAP to get an error factor, ....like if the average of individual cylinder readings is say 85kPA when the true MAP is 60kPA so I get a correction factor, here it would be 60/85 and multiple that times the reading from each individual cylinder.  That forces the average of all the cylinder MAPS to match the multiMAP reading which is the global MAP.  This seems to work out pretty well, its a little lagy because the cylinder data needs a lot of smoothing but that doesn't really matter at idle where the the cylinder to cylinder offsets are largest

My only point here is a simple question like "what is the cyl 12 MAP reading" isn't so simple .  I've done what I think is that best I can with the tools I have and it seems good enough because log show lots of cylinder to cylinder MAP variations but the plugs all look about the same which was the goal vs having complete trust in the the cylinder MAP readings which I'm not sure I do.

dave215 said:

The ITB's do complicate readings .One thought since plug color is trending the right way .If some of the sealant is on the valve face and cause of low compression - more run time might dislodge sealant particles .Is it possible to send camera down the intake port ?

 I think I was typing while you were.

I did put the camera down already...but realized my camera maybe isn't the best and I had a really hard time making out details leaving me as confused as when I started.  

I have an air handler to install in the basement this weekend but I should have some time to run the car a bit.  My thought is try to get some tuning done and just see what happens.  I haven't driven the car in 15 years so I'm not in a huge hurry to pull it back apart but snow will be here soon so if its not resolved by then out the engine comes is the plan I think.

I'm having a hard time processing how driving this thing feels. Its not done, I had not shifter gate so shifting was horrible, listening to every sound in terror I wasn't going to make it home, all the normal 1st drive stuff.....but then the feel of the car is just hard to describe. Its loud, the the engine itself, the exhaust, the whine to the drop gears I think it was so there is noise. Then there is the vibrations, also very different from what I remember of the original engine and the supercharged versions, this is very obviously a different engine.

I think though what I'm having trouble processing is the sounds, the vibrations, the acceleration, just so don't match the rpm, at least not for me having never driven a 12 cyl car. I have 4 and 6 cyl cars these days. When I raced motorcycles they had this kind of acceleration and noise but they were 2 and 4 cyl so 3 or 6 times the rpm to get these kinds of vibrations. based on senses 2500-3000 just feels like its screaming, then I look at the tach and its not...but getting my throttle foot to listen to my brain is a challenge. At this moment I'm not sure I even comprehend 9000rpm yet but that was the shift point on my H-D and the never go below point on the Kawasaki.

Strange feeling driving this thing and perhaps a buddy got it best when he compared it to an amusement park ride...just that out of control thrill? I need more seat time to think about it but I'm pretty sure the gemellocattivo (evil twin) badge to replace the QV was the right call

I think you need a reference to a normal  known good V12 Ferrari  - difficult to evaluate without a comparison  engine  and it's characteristics  .There have to be several near you -one ride would provide a lot of useful info  and I bet a lot of the owners would be happy to help .

In reply to dave215 :

I'm told that stock these engines feel like the hand of god reaches down and pushes you along

This is more like satin reaching up and hurling you...I could even smell the fires of hell burning the rubber off the tires  

So with a now mostly running engine I was feeling a little cocky and the guy a couple houses up always has something cool...today it became a really loud porsche GT3 so I did the neighborly thing and asked if it was running right as it sounded like 1/2 the cylinders where missing

The best part, to me, is how easily it restarts when it stalls pulling into the driveway. I know it takes a lot of work to get a project car to start like that.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

The best part, to me, is how easily it restarts when it stalls pulling into the driveway. I know it takes a lot of work to get a project car to start like that.

Sadly I think that was more luck than anything else.  Right now ZERO of my 6 O2 sensors are work so I just left it rich which helps with starting and idling.  Its raining today so I'm going to try to get those senors working....and see if I can find the shifter gate.

I still have a way to go on cold starts and as you said that take quite a lot of time.  Also I'm not sure if the way I set up the ECU up for this is a good idea or more trouble than its worth.  This is the last mostly cold start, CLT was 30C

It cranks about 1 sec while I'm opening the throttle slowly which richens the cranking mixture then cylinders start to fire but it looks like I wasn't convinced they were all on so a throttle blip at 14 sec then it settle into idle at 16 sec

What I have is 3 tables.  There is the main VE table and on the left it a 300 rpm colum.  This cranks at 150 so that the 70% is what is used until its running  I was originally planning idle at 1000 and stall saver setting at 700, I need to move those.  Also I wasn't expecting the 45kPa idle or quite sop linear a MAP so I have too many MAP rows up top and not enough down low.  There is no limit to how many row or columns I can add to a table in this ECU but I like to be a bit strategic so I don't wast time tuning stuff that doesn't matter and need to move some stuff around. But for starting is the 1 row on the left.

Then the Coolant correction table.  I have it setup with an RPM axis but haven't messed with that yet, just temp.  Its a 70C t'stat so correction at 70/80 kind of needs to be by default.  I'm still roughing this in and if I mess with the VE table then this is wrong again.

Last I added a start enrich table that is like a prime and adds fuel based on revolutions and coolant temp.  Again I'm just starting to rough this in because before this can be setup up right the engine has to right at whatever temperature I'm trying to start it at.  Its a slow process.

I'm also using spark timing for start and then idle which kind of buggered some of my earlier startup fuel settings.  Same as the VE table, cranking is the 1 column on the left.  It kicks back if I go above 10 degrees but then once it starts I need to pull the timing back or I can't get the rpm below 1800 or so.  I need to add of resolution around idle but right now I start pulling timing at 2000 and below and hold ot steady around idle rpm which is the only way I've ever found to get a nice steady idle like in the video I posted.

Ha! The gate in a bucket of random junk!  No screws but a start

In reply to mke :

Lol. I have a junk bucket in my garage too and it is full of nuts, bolts, pulley's pieces of chain, etc..

Sadly there are zero Ferrari parts in it. 

NY Nick said:

In reply to mke :

Lol. I have a junk bucket in my garage too and it is full of nuts, bolts, pulley's pieces of chain, etc..

Sadly there are zero Ferrari parts in it. 

You want some?  I'm pretty sure that roundish casting is a TR cam end seal cover I have but have no use...amazing how many parts are left over 

Some number of buckets and bins later I also found the shifter ball so now I have a gate, adjusted linkage and will be just plain stylin on the next drive 

I'm finishing up some edit to the fuel and spark tables to get axis points points that make more sense now that I know what the idle conditions are and how much vacuum its still pulling at cruise conditions.  then maybe eat something and give it a go.
 

Didn't get as much time as I expected but the first 20C start was near perfect then I discovered the car only went forward...so the linkage was not as adjusted as I thought.  Fixed that and adjusted the start tables a bit and the next 30C start was also good so all the mapping changes I made seemed to be in the right directions. 

Around the block with my younger son so  he was thrilled.    "We're going so fast!"  Nope 25mph, its just a lot of noises.  Same run as the video so when we got back I asked if he liked the burnout  

Now the bad news.  Still struggling with 2nd, heard the bad sounding noise that I thought topping up the trans oil solved the other day and oil was coming out somewhere, it got onto the axles and flung onto the headers so no the best possible outcome.  

Oh, and looking at the logs I did get 6k and 80kPA in a 3rd gear pull...it just runs good

Looks like forgetting to top up the trans oil was a very expensive mistake....nothing usable in the drop gear case anymore so no more question about whether or not the engine's coming back out.  Hopefully the trans itself made out a bit better.

I am sorry to see that.

F man. Sorry. 
edit: I assume the sober, reasonable post followed a mad ranting curse storm around the garage like I normally do. Neighborhood kids learn new words every now and again. 

The trans itself looks Fine from what I can see..the oil was just too low for any to get into the drop gear case.  I'm going to clean up the shop a bit then pull the engine and sort out the gears and whatever is wrong in #12 and  guess a general punch list or stuff I need to do before I can really drive it again like putting the inside back together and getting the deck lid on.

Way back someone asked what this project cost and I answer about challenge budget.... every year until its finished.  I thought this year that money would go to suspension bushings and new tires but no, that will be next year I guess.

Seller accepted my offer so a good used drop gear set including new idle gear bearings is on its way for $575+tax which is a screaming deal so good timing? 

The issue then is mine aren't stock.  You see the welding in the cover and that is for a couple reasons.  The V12 is much longer than the V8 so I shortened the bellhousing setup as much as I could which meant making a new shorter clutch shaft

 but the trans input shaft had to be extended

and I took the opportunity to swap the clutch and trans gears (to get better gear ratios for the bigger engine) by making the new clutch shaft fit the trans gear and wire EDMing the engine gear to fit onto my trans shaft extender, then relocating the idle gear.  Extending the trans shaft meant adding a coupe bearings to support it.

What all this means though is I still need to EDM the replacement gear to turn this

I don't have wire EDM access anymore so I need to get that quoted and perhaps redesign some of this depending on that quote.

While all this is in progress I need to get #12 repqared which brings me back to head gaskets.  That is easy enough but brings me back to head gaskets. The plan at the moment is a copper ring with a viton oring around it sitting on the liner and located by an aluminum plate. Sealant for the water and oil at the block to plate to head and the orings to keep the frikin coolant out of the cylinders. Something like that I guess this time.

I think I'm going to move the coils too.  the header wrap made the heat WAY better but the coils do obstruct most to the air flow through there.  I'm thinking just move them up over the cam cover near the TBs and hide them with the airbox.  Gets them out of the air flow and it should be new mounts as the harness and plug wire should all still work.

busy winter it looks like.

In reply to mke :

Will Viton be OK in that location? I imagine it gets pretty hot that close to the cylinders.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mke :

Will Viton be OK in that location? I imagine it gets pretty hot that close to the cylinders.

I think so.  Modern MLS head gaskets are viton coated I'm pretty sure.  If not I'll have to try something else I guess

mke said:

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mke :

Will Viton be OK in that location? I imagine it gets pretty hot that close to the cylinders.

I think so.  Modern MLS head gaskets are viton coated I'm pretty sure.  If not I'll have to try something else I guess

That's a good point. I had kinda forgotten about coated head gaskets. Hell, I haven't changed a head gasket since 2004.

I never loved what I did for the lower gear so I think I'm going to take this opportunity to change the design.  The original goldsmith car (1st V12 308) had the gear cut and welded to a hub and added an inner bearing close to the gear for support.  I did basically the same but splines instead of weld and also added an outer bearing but either way its far from an ideal setup.

The new plan is to stop trying to force things to be something they are not...the trans shaft is not long enough and the gear is not made with a hub.  I'm going to make a new shaft that holds an unmodified gear in the drop gear case and rides on a pair of tapered roller bearings.  That will drive an adapter on the trans input shaft using splines or dogs.  This will be stronger and make the gear a bolt on replacement should it "wear" again and I should be able to repurpose the hub I already have to be the trans adapter.

mke said:

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mke :

Will Viton be OK in that location? I imagine it gets pretty hot that close to the cylinders.

I think so.  Modern MLS head gaskets are viton coated I'm pretty sure.  If not I'll have to try something else I guess

I was looking at viton orings last right, the say -15 to 400F service so I throw some in my mcmaster cart for the next order and start working on sourcing the the rings and plates to go with

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mke :

Will Viton be OK in that location? I imagine it gets pretty hot that close to the cylinders.

Not as much as you'd think, because the aluminum sinks its heat into the coolant.

It sounds like a similar application as rotary coolant O-rings. Mazda used some kind of square rubber with a Teflon layer to face the combustion chamber.  Pete and other racers use round Viton cord stock cut to size and it lasts as long as you want it to.  Rotaries get up in the 400F range at the metal near the spark plugs, piston engines run cooler because all four cycles happen in the same place, rotaries have combustion happening in one place over and over again.

I used to use regular old electrical wire, using the jacketing as the "O ring", and that actually works amazingly well as long as you don't run the engine when it is cold outside.  Starting and running when near freezing would burn the jacketing a little and cause a minor amount of leakage.