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Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/5/21 11:54 p.m.

I've never attempted to make a build thread before, but here goes.

Over the weekend, I picked up my personal attainable unicorn, a 1991 Audi 200 20v. This is my second 5 cylinder, my first being a 95.5 urS6 that I bought and attempted to daily drive through college. The car never left me stranded, but maintaining it properly proved to be a little beyond my bare bones college kid budget, so I eventually sold it.

This picture's from the day I brought it home before removing the PO's plastidip job off the Avus wheels. When I bought it, I didn't realize how rare Europa Blue urS cars were. This was something like 1 of 4 made for the US market. Not that that made it any more valuable, just kinda cool and unique.

Time passed, and I eventually graduated, got a decent job, and played with BMWs for a bit, but I could never shake the 5 cylinder bug, so recently after selling my m3 to find a somewhat more family friendly project car, my search led me back to 5 cylinder Audis. As with most cars these days, prices had increased and supply had decreased. Discouraged, I reached out to one of the guys I knew from the old days on the forums to see if he had any leads, and he sent me this single image, saying that the car needed an engine, but was otherwise complete and clean.

Immediately, I knew I had to see it. As much as I loved the urS cars, the 200 20v was always cooler to me. It didn't help that it was a 200 20v that got me interested in these cars in the first place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdXhvTwUa8U

I'm probably responsible for a few hundred of the views on this video by myself lol

So after a month or so of planning, I prepped the Pumpkin, borrowed a friend's trailer, and headed North to Cleveland to see if this was worth pursuing.

The car was sitting at his father's shop, which was full of all kinds of wild cars, from 2nd gen camaros, to FB and FD RX7s, a 260z, and an old Fiat 124 spyder. But unfortunately, there was no room in the shop for an old engineless Audi, so the car had been sitting outside for a while.

After towing it out from under the tree with a manual Camry, we were able to look the car over and found that other than the obvious dirt and grime, it was as complete as advertised, and ALL of the trim was present and in remarkably good shape. Only about 1100 of these were imported to the US and WAY fewer than that remain, so lots of the smaller trim pieces and other bits are worth their weight in gold. Better yet, the interior still smelled like an old Audi-no hints of mice or mildew (at least not yet, knock on wood). The wiring harness was fully intact, and the assorted hoses and front end parts were boxed up in the car or in the trunk, other than an engine itself. I knew I had to have it.

Loading it up and heading home! The drive was uneventful for the most part. The only real drama was towing a trailer through some of the narrower streets in Cleveland. Thankfully, the Pumpkin did great and made the 3 hour drive South without any issues.

Home! and about to be unloaded next to my DD Passat TDI.

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/6/21 12:31 a.m.

So after getting it home, my friend and I gave it a quick wash to see what was under the grime.

After a little bit of soap and water, we were pretty amazed to see how nice the Pearl paint still was. There's a scuff on the rear bumper and one or two rock chips on the hood, but it's crazy clean. It still needs a more thorough wash and detail for the body and underneath, but I'm feeling really good about this as a starting point.

Here's a few more pictures of the car, the trip, and some of the random details that I love about this thing.

Rear diff lock button

98k original miles! The bracket on the steering column was to hold a CB radio cord. Apparently the PO did a few road rallies with this thing!

The extremely 80s climate control, and an aftermarket headunit. Thankfully the stereo retrofit was done properly since the factory Bose system doesn't usually play nice with aftermarket stuff.

And my favorite feature: Quattro script rear defroster. So unnecessary, but so cool

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/6/21 12:40 a.m.

Progress is going to be slow for a while. My time and budget are pretty tight these days, so to start, I began unpacking the spare parts that the PO included with the car. Some things, like the front bumper and a set of all-red taillights from a v8 Quattro are going to be delivered later.

OE spec clutch with some life left. The pressure plate and flywheel are here too, although the flywheel could use resurfacing.

Core support, grille trim, a factory cooler, and a fully intact water manifold, which is worth its weight in gold these days.

Engine covers, plastic trims, factory exhaust manifold and external wastegate.

A big score-an intact set of Euro headlights.

Random bits still in the trunk waiting to be unpacked. 3b intake manifold, all metal intercooler and piping, valve cover, assorted hoses and hardware. Unfortunately most of the hardware isn't labeled.

And here's the engine bay. The harness is coiled up on the right side behind the radiator and AC condensor. Also pictured: PS pump, stock downpipe, aftermarket catch can.

Seems to be in decent shape overall, just dirty.

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/6/21 12:54 a.m.

And in true GRM fashion, I had started to accumulate parts before I actually took possession of the car.

(Pictured: machined 7000 hotside, S60r fuel rail with Green Giants, 7400 turbo)

These cars came from the factory with a KKK-7000 turbo. The Volvo S60R came with a KKK-K7400. A few years ago, some of the Audi guys figured out that the 7400 can fit if you machine the 7000 hotside to fit the larger wheel. All the oil and coolant lines match up, and the IC piping fits with minor adjustments. These turbos are the predecessor to the EFR series Borg Warners, and they're capable of just about maxing out a stock block AAN/3B engine.

Unfortunately, this first turbo was junk.

Thankfully they're cheap, and I was able to find another on a Volvo forum. This one has the more desirable V-Band housing, so I'd call it a win.

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/6/21 1:07 a.m.

So the plans are:

1) Inventory all of the spare parts that came with the car

2) Clean the car fully, inside and out.

3) Inspect everything, clean and respray any crusty parts like suspension arms and undercarriage bits.

4) Acquire parts and install. Get it back on the road and shakedown, then go from there.

Originally, this car came with the 20v 5 cylinder (3B) that used a distributor and an intake manifold that crossed over the engine due to packaging constraints. The later urS cars used the AAN, which had a more traditional pseudo coil on plug ignition and a better intake design since the radiator could be mounted in the front. AAN engines are much easier to find, and the ECU is much more tuneable than the 3B's. Ideally, I'll find an AAN and AAN ECU for this car and convert the wiring harness for the AAN's coil on plug ignition and cam position sensor. EFI Express sells a PnP adapter harness for this, so I'll probably just go that route. The 3B intake stuff bolts onto the AAN head, so mechanically, it'll basically be plug and play. I'll probably get an RS2 EVO copy exhaust manifold, since the stock manifold has a reputation for baking cylinders 1 and 5 and has pretty poor wastegate priority. I'll also probably go with an upgraded clutch to handle the additional power of the Volvo turbo. Ideally, this setup should put me at about 300-330whp and a similar amount of torque, with a nice flat powerband. Basically perfect for a street car on a stock bottom end.

This car orignally had the UFO style front brakes, but was converted to the later urS spec g60 uprights, so I picked up a set of g60 to Brembo 17z caliper adapters. I had these on my Europa car, and the difference was night and day. G60's are pretty undersized for a car this heavy, and it was definitely felt on the street.

Cosmetically, it NEEDS different wheels, even though the wheels it came on look better in person. I'd like to find an Audi OEM option in 17 or 18, but I might go with something aftermarket, like an Apex SM-10. It'd be cool to find a period correct 3 piece wheel, like some OZ Futuras or a set of BBS LM's, but those cost serious money, and that'd be better spent elsewhere. It'll also get a 3 spoke sport steering wheel eventually, just because the stock 4 spoke is ugly. I'm also on the hunt for a set of black urS seats to replace the factory comfort seats. My Europa had some of the best factory seats I've ever sat in.

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/6/21 1:11 a.m.

Oh-full disclosure, I've never pulled or installed an engine before, so this is all uncharted territory for me. It's a little intimidating. Thankfully the 5 cylinder community is still pretty active on various facebook groups, and some of the old forums are still active with intact pictures.

I also managed to snag the full 3 volume set of Bentley manuals, so that should help a bit.

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
10/24/21 9:24 p.m.

It's been a while, but progress is actually happening.

What does a car with no engine need? That's right. Brakes.
 

Picked up these 17z adapter brackets from a facebook group buy, and found a set of calipers from a Porsche Cayenne.

These were a bolt on for my old urS6, and I figured since my 200 already had the G60 uprights and brakes that it'd be a straightforward swap here too. But I was wrong. As far as I can tell, when the car was converted, whoever did the work used hubs from a 10v car, which used a higher offset hub. You can see the difference here.

So it was off to find a set of urS hubs, which, like most other things for this car were discontinued. berkeley.
But all was not lost! I found a set of complete urS uprights on ebay, so I bought them. But they turned out being a lot crustier than I expected.

So I finally broke down, bought a slide hammer and pulled the hubs. Kind of a bummer since the wheel bearings on the 200 were still in great shape and put up a hell of a fight coming out. It took persuasion from my 3 foot breaker bar and 2 foot jack handle to finally break them free.

You can see the difference in offset in the 2nd picture-urS on the left and 200 on the right. (I hadn't pulled the inner race off of the urS hub yet)

So yeah, that's basically where it sits now. Long update for something so basic and stupid, but maybe someone will get some use out of this info.
In other news, I picked up a Motronic ECU that was already tuned for the turbo and injectors I'm going to use, and a good OEM radiator to replace the broken one in the car. Hopefully now that it's getting colder and work is slowing down a bit, I'll have more time to do some actual work on this and have it ready for next spring.

Racingsnake
Racingsnake Reader
10/24/21 9:31 p.m.

Never really paid much attention to these Audis but that's a good looking car and should be lots o fun with 300hp and a stick. Good luck with the build, look forward to learning as I follow along.

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
10/25/21 8:20 a.m.

That turbo is better than the RS2 turbo?  I liked the 200 but really prefer the hvac head in the UrS cars, it's just so much more modern.  I wouldn't turn down a 91 200 avant tho, which I still see around here in Denver sometimes...

iansane
iansane HalfDork
10/25/21 10:00 a.m.

Cool project! Those 5 cylinders are pretty fun, if not a little archaic.

I have a '91 v8 manual trans chassis sitting in my driveway right now waiting to get hauled off. Same pearl white/gray/woodgrain combo. Last few years I've been working on an 10vt 90 for a buddy getting it all sorted. Parts are such a pain in the ass to get ahold of. Well, as long as you don't mind waiting it isn't too bad.

See if your local audi dealer has the capability to order from Audi Tradition. They're starting to repop a lot of old stuff and even just stock a lot of NOS stuff. Just recently I got a new sunroof seal from them for the 90. Took about a month but well worth it to stop the leak!

de80q
de80q Reader
10/25/21 10:28 a.m.

Nice to see another old Audi on here.  Hope you can source a good engine for it.  Unfortunately, that's another thing that the prices have sky rocketed on, which is probably why it's not there.  I've seen 3b's and AAN's selling for between $1500 and $3k!  Kind of crazy, which is why I have stuck with the old 10vt "tractor engine".  

 

 

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
10/25/21 6:01 p.m.

In reply to docwyte :

I'd consider it roughly equivalent to an RS2 setup. Dyno charts are a little tough to find for it, but based on my experience with both, the Volvo turbo spools almost as quick as stock, and is done about the same time the stock turbo is too. The RS2 feels like it spools slower, but has more on the top end. But the big advantage is cost, since the RS2 stuff is starting to get sparse. I've got about $350 in this turbo, not counting the junk turbo I originally bought.

The volvo turbo also has a few billet wheel options, and apparently there have been more than a few guys making around 425 whp with a built engine (rods, 7A cams, and other headwork). Regardless, it should be plenty of fun on the street.

Yeah, the urS HVAC is so much nicer than the 200's, and I'm definitely gonna be looking for a set of urS front seats to adapt. I just really like the looks of the 200 over the urS.

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
10/25/21 6:07 p.m.

In reply to iansane :

Oh man! I'm jealous of that manual V8! And I bet a 10vt 90 would be a blast.
It's wild how much differently BMW and Audi treat their older chassis. I was definitely spoiled by my e36, but for now at least, it's kinda fun hunting down parts on ebay and various forums and groups. The 5 cylinder guys are mostly really great about helping to keep these cars on the road.

Good call on Audi tradition. Glad to hear they're starting to come around lol

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
10/25/21 6:09 p.m.

In reply to de80q :

Right! I was pretty shocked at prices these days. I almost pulled the trigger on one for $1650, but got cold feet. In hindsight, I should've just done it, but I had just bought the car and wanted to let my wallet recover a bit.

10vT's are still a lot of fun though. Pretty sure I used to follow your build on TPP and MG back in the day!

bgkast
bgkast GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/25/21 6:34 p.m.

Great looking car, I'm looking forward to watching this build.

digital
digital New Reader
10/25/21 8:45 p.m.

Awesome seeing another old Audi on here! Even though I have a UrS4, I really do enjoy the classic looks of the 200. v8 tails are money!

de80q
de80q Reader
10/26/21 12:22 a.m.

In reply to Turbine :

Thanks, apparently my thread was pretty popular, and kind of brought the 10vt back into popularity.  I don't post much any more, and almost sold the car.  Now I'm in the process of building another engine for it.  Pistons, rods, fully balanced, you know that kind of thing.

 

If you need help finding parts along the way, feel free to hit me up.  I've gotten quite good over the years at finding the obscure parts, plus I have a pretty large stash myself.

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
11/5/21 2:50 p.m.

In reply to de80q :

Awesome! Thanks for the offer. I'll definitely keep that in mind

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
11/5/21 2:55 p.m.

Finally had time to work on the car again. One side done! And as you can see, im doing a stud conversion as well. I hate lug bolts. 
 

unfortunately, pressing in the new bearings was almost as difficult as pressing the old ones out, and I managed to ruin one of my new ones. So im on hold  again. It's shipping via FedEx, so who knows if/when it'll actually get here. 

de80q
de80q Reader
11/7/21 7:41 a.m.

Looks good!  I'll be doing the Porsche 4 pot calipers on my B3.  I want to be able to keep my 16" rims.  Are you doing anything with the rear brakes?

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
11/7/21 6:46 p.m.

In reply to de80q :

Thanks! Just a basic refresh on the rears for now. New pads, rotors, and stainless lines, which weren't on yet when I took this pic. I also hit them with a pretty cheesy spray paint job. 
Eventually I'd like to find some kind of upgrade, but ideally it'd be something that let me keep the stock parking brake. I know some guys have talked about using a different caliper carrier (B5 S4 maybe?) that would allow for a larger rotor on the rear, but I'd have to look into it more. As it is, the 17z's didn't seem to mess with the brake balance too much on my old car, so this should be fine for a while

onemanarmy
onemanarmy Reader
11/8/21 7:40 a.m.

Such a cool and quite rare car now.....will be following

iansane
iansane HalfDork
11/8/21 9:23 a.m.

Man, those 17z's are awesome in how ubiquitous they are. Good progress!

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
11/9/21 3:24 a.m.

In reply to iansane :

Thanks! Yeah, they're basically the LS swap of the brake world! I've thought about adapting a set for my Passat TDI just because lol

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
11/9/21 3:40 a.m.

I had an unexpected hour or so of garage time before work tonight, so I cleaned up the passenger's front hub and pressed the bearing in. No pictures since it's pretty basic stuff, but it went in without issue. I'll get the hub in and the brakes installed as time allows through the week hopefully. 
In other news, I ordered a few parts that I'm pretty excited about.

First, a kit to adapt the 200's harness to accept an AAN ECU and drive COP style ignition. It'll use 2.0t coil packs from pretty much every modern VW. 

Second, a fuel pump relay harness that will allow the pump to receive full voltage from the battery. It's a pretty common issue with these cars, and the later urS's. I was going to DIY this, but after pricing out the relay, fuse block, and VW/Audi specific connectors and terminals, it was basically a wash to just buy a premade harness. 
 

Finally, I picked up a Bosch 040 fuel pump. It's allegedly good for up to 500whp in this application, which is more than I'd be shooting to make, even after building the engine. And as a plus, it should be plug and play with the 200's stock 60mm fuel pump basket. 
In prep for all of this, I crammed myself into the trunk, pulled the access hatch to the fuel tank, and began to remove the stock pump. Unfortunately, there's still about 1/4 tank of old gas in the tank, so it looks like I'll be buying a siphon pump. At least everything looks clean inside. These gas tanks are getting extremely thin on the ground, so I'm relieved that this one is solid

 

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