In reply to No Time :
Good to know! If it falls through, you'll be getting a PM!
In reply to No Time :
Good to know! If it falls through, you'll be getting a PM!
Oh, and as an added bonus...
I found a 8.0 V10 Magnum today! I know they have their issues, but still, such a cool thing to see. This one was 100% complete, too.
If the planets align correctly, you'll be celebrating "I Have The MORE POWER!" Hope this all works out. Nice to see you may have a parachute with No Time, in case....
Tony Sestito said:The trans is probably a 46RH, but to take that, I would need to swap transfer cases, driveshafts, and both axles. I would need a "1st Gen" 1981-93 donor truck for that, including different wheels and everything. That's a lot of work (and a lot more money), and I need to turn this around quick, since Truck Stuff season is nearly here.
And I also failed to remember/reread that your truck is a half-ton. I saw the paint pen on Pine Cone and immediately defaulted to my own vehicle as a frame of reference. Careless. But every time my 727 doesn't shift into overdrive, I notice it...
The V10 would be super cool. Super mega ULTRA cool. Maybe not friendly to a brand name fuel injection kit in a box or the ad revenue from content generated around same, certainly not friendly to the fuel budget, and absolutely unnecessary in every single way, but...very cool.
In reply to DarkMonohue :
Oh, it was tempting. But there's a lot more than the EFI that's not compatible, and it's not a swap many people do since the 5.9 can make similar power in a smaller, more efficient package. Also, I don't know if I can afford to feed a V10 these days!
Just thinking out loud,
I wonder how difficult it would be to swap Gen2 drivetrain (5.9 and 46RE) into a Gen1 with a donor for the harness, ECU and trans?
In reply to No Time :
It requires some finagling due to the front drivetrain routing on the first gens. Prior to MY '94, the transfer case drop for the front axle was on the passenger side, after '94 is on the driver's side. It results in the need to move around some sheetmetal.
In reply to No Time :
Depending on the year, you might be able to bolt the trans to the transfer case. The only issue is that you'd be replacing one 4-speed auto trans for another in the years that fit, so swapping just the engine and EFI stuff would make more sense (and be easier).
In reply to Tony Sestito :
Thanks, that is helpful to know.
I'm trying to figure out the target market for the driveline when I part out the rest of the donor im buying for the nose. It's a 2001 1500 4wd "off road package" with a 5.9l and 46RE so it looks like my target audience will be Gen2 owners for trans/transfer case/axles, and a broader market for the 5.9.
So, here's a fun one.
One of the PITA things about doing the Magnum V8 swap is the situation with the intake manifold. I need a carbed intake to work with my MSD Atomic 2 system, and if I ever sold the truck, I'd like to keep the EFI, so this would make it easy to swap back to a carb. Problem is, Mopar changed the bolt angle on the Magnum heads from angled (like on the old LA engines) to straight up-and-down mounting. To accommodate, you typically need to do one of two things:
-Buy an aftermarket carbed Magnum intake. There are currently two companies that make these: Edelbrock and Professional Products. The Edelbrock is over $600 and needs to be special ordered. The Professional Products is a knockoff of the Edelbrock and a lot less at $269, but it's dual drilled and cheaply made.
-Pull the stock heads to redrill them for the LA-style holes. It's risky, but I have a friend with a mill, so it's not impossible. You used to be able to buy affordable heads pre-drilled, but they have gotten crazy expensive in the past few years.
Enter Option 3: A friend has a carbed intake he wants to sell me that he pulled from a Magnum engine he has. It looks like this:
After looking at it, I realized that it's actually an old Mopar M1 LA-style intake, Part #p4452893. These were popular on high performance 340's and 360's back in the day. Someone used the Magnum-style intake gaskets as a guide and slotted the mounting holes in order to accommodate for the straight up-and-down bolts. It should look like this instead:
I'd just modify my Weiand Action Plus intake, but the areas around the holes are not flat like this one.
A couple of them get close to the coolant passages, and there isn't as much meat around the holes as on the M1. It might be possible, but I think the M1 is a better option.
Just to be clear, here's what a proper Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap Magnum intake looks like (note the mounting holes):
The modded M1 should work (I mean, it DID work on my friend's engine), but I may have to make some small aluminum spacers for the bolts to get proper torque instead of just slapping washers on there. Still, it's easier to do that than deal with redrilling the heads. I've also heard great things about the LA M1 and Holley/MSD EFI. The single plane design plus the EFI should make great power together. We'll see what happens.
I'd like to eventually dump the stock "keg" manifold in my 5.9, but I'm a little worried even the mild torque boost I'd get might make the NV3500 I'm going to swap in a little unhappy.
Then again, I don't plan to beat on it, I just want to dump the 46RE before it checks out permanently, as they all seem to do. A built unit wasn't worth it to me, as I am not a fan of automatics.
One of the other issues with some of the aftermarket intakes when I was looking a while back was that it shifted the torque curve to the higher RPMs, and I do occasionally pull with this thing, and the low-end pulling ability is what makes me love it, especially if I don't want to break out the 7.3.
In reply to Azryael :
While I'd be sacrificing some low-end torque with something like the M1, it kinda balances out with the Atomic EFI and the headers/exhaust. And it's still at least 100 more ft lbs than it ever had with the 318, so I think it will be ok. I'm not going crazy with this build; basically going to clean it up, replace a few small bits like the timing chain and oil pump, mod it to fit the truck, and in it goes. Hopefully the 727 and NP203 are up to task. Going for reliability over power here.
Yeah, I hear that! Hence ditching the automatic for me!
I saw something from "Hughes" something, that apparently doesn't affect low-end torque, but I'm not too familiar with them, nor do I know anyone who's used it. We shall see! Definitely love these old LA and Magnum motors. A V10 would be nuts, but there's the question of feeding it, as you said.
In reply to Azryael :
Hughes Engines. They build Mopar, and only Mopar. Excellent source of parts and info.
In reply to Recon1342 :
Well that's one positive vote for them! I google'd 5.9 intake and their HUG 5409 is at the top of the list, but unfortunately out of stock. They claim that with their manifold you don't lose the low-end torque.
With all the LS/Ford swaps, I always feel like Mopars just don't get enough love. I can see that the folks over at Hughes have a TON of stuff for the Magnum motors. Looks like they have quite a bit for LA motors as well.
Hughes is probably the biggest name out there when it comes to the Magnums. They have some really nice stuff, but a lot of it (like their heads and intakes) have been out of stock for a while now. Being such a niche powerplant, and with the Hemi ending up in scrapyards now and almost as affordable, I think there's less interest in the Magnum than ever before, and I don't see it getting better. Not to mention that most people just default to a LS swap, no matter what project you're working on. Hell, I even considered a LS swap! It's a lot easier to do the Magnum swap than trying to bolt something completely different in there, so that's where I am with that.
Hughes is a full machine shop. I've been using their ported LA heads and cams for over 30 years now. They know their stuff.
Parts shortages are because of supply line issues in the past two years, and have hit suppliers of all makes.
As far as that intake goes, I would walk briskly away from it. It is wrong for the application, and I can see the hogged out mounting holes adding a ton of frustration.
Honestly, for your uses, I would run the engine and trans from the donor, and find out if a 242D or even a NP208 can bolt up behind it (the spline count should be the same at 23, but MoPar went into some weird pitch angle shenanigans with some of their stuff during that era, and I can't remember whether it included t-case inputs or not) When all is said an done, unless you are swapping cams to match the intake, an aftermarket TBI isn't going to offer anything over the factory port injection with a matched intake and camshaft for your application, and the overdrive and a more robust transfer case with part time and a lower low range are icing on the case. No axle swaps required, but you probably would have to source driveshafts from a donor.
In reply to Russian Warship, Go Berkeley Yourself :
The intake isn't ideal, but it does bolt on there and will allow me to use my current setup. I may pony up a little more for the Chinese one (sounds weird to say that), since it's a dual plane design and I know it will work. It's an option, at least. I haven't completely ruled out modifying the current intake or drilling the heads, either (I have a friend with a mill so it's also a possibility). A cam swap may be happening as well, but I can't confirm that yet.
Using the factory 1997 intake and EFI will require a ton of wiring and time, and I lose the ease of tuning and simplicity I have now. I really like the Atomic EFI 2 and Hyperspark setup; it's very easy to tune and troubleshoot. I've had Magnum-powered vehicles in the past, and one of them lead me on a wild sensor-chasing (and changing) goose chase that I'd rather not replicate anytime soon. In fact, that's one of the reasons that's a former vehicle of mine. I'd rather go back to a carb than deal with swapping that in.
I'm not looking to swap the trans or anything else right now. I really want to keep this as simple as possible and get it back on the road with little downtime. I would have gone for the simplicity of another LA if I could find one in good shape for a reasonable price, but they are all gone around here.
I missed it, but did you rule this out:
In a different direction, any possibility to take advantage of that mill to machine a mounting surface for the atomic on the Keg?
Edit: I missed that the Jegs one looks to be the same as the professional products manifold.
In reply to No Time :
That Jegs one is the same as the Professional Products and the Ebay ones. It's a bit cheaper, too!
Russian Warship, Go Berkeley Yourself said:As far as that intake goes, I would walk briskly away from it. It is wrong for the application, and I can see the hogged out mounting holes adding a ton of frustration.
Seconded. That's a drag or circle track manifold. It is most definitely not a Truck Stuff manifold. Even with EFI and headers, you're looking at a considerable loss in low-speed torque in comparison to the same engine with a street oriented dual-plane manifold.
Don't take it from me. Take it from MadScientistMatt (pay attention to the difference between tests #5 and #6):
https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/carb-to-efi/
Part-throttle operation and transitional behavior, which don't show up on the dyno, are likely to suffer as much as full-throttle torque. That's all pretty critical when doing Truck Stuff.
Tony, I feel like I'm pooping all over your thread, and that's not my intention. I just hate to see people choosing parts out of convenience and then not get the results they could be getting.
So, things are starting to get more real now. I am scheduled to pick up the new-to-me mill tomorrow. I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve.
After discussing the whole deal with some Mopar buddies, they pointed me toward a recent episode of Engine Masters on Motor Trend On Demand (which I don't have, but they do). They recently did an intake comparison in a junkyard 5.9 Magnum. The biggest takeaway is that just about all the carbed intakes made significantly more power just about everywhere than the stock "Kegger" intake. Freiburger said that he wouldn't use that intake no matter what, even for EFI. Single plane intakes made slightly less (and I mean negligibly noticeable) torque down low and a ton more power up top. That said, I'm leaning toward the Jegs Cool Gap intake right now. It's the most cost effective solution aside from pulling the heads and re-drilling them, and the "easy button" for my setup. And if I do end up getting a cam, it's going to be very mild with torque in mind anyway. Remember, a stock 5.9 makes about 100 lb ft more torque than the LA 318. Anything I do to improve that is a bonus.
Once I get it home, I'll start tearing into it for inspection, and I'll be sure to post some pics. It's been quite a while since I've done an engine swap, so I am getting excited.
Side note: I know you are all trying to help, and I appreciate it! It's nice to have all my options on the table. But right now, I just want to keep things as simple as possible. Down the road, I'd LOVE to do a trans/transfer case swap so I can go part time 4wd and get an extra gear, along with the appropriate axle bits and pieces to allow for that. But my setup currently works, it's unbeatable in low traction environments, and I don't want to mess with it right now. Spring is nearly here and I need to do some Truck Stuff!
Things just got real, folks. A Magnum 5.9 is sitting in the bed of the truck, awaiting removal and inspection. The ride home was interesting, as the 318 started getting louder and louder. I was expecting block ventilation on the way home, but it made it. I'll have more pics after I unload it and get it tucked in the garage.
I can't really explain this, and really what would be best is something like an Engine Masters or similar episode where they try this mix of stuff, but one advantage of the single plane open plenum intake vs. the traditional dual plane carb intake like the "Cool Gap" (great name by the way) is how it *seems* like dual plane / divided plenum intakes have weird mixture unevenness with TBI's on top. Why this happens with TBI and not carbs as well, I don't really understand, but I do think there's an Engine Master's (or some other similar show that D. Frieburger is involved with) episode where they had to fight this. I think the solution was to cut down the dividing wall at least partially in the intake plenum.
I'm not saying I know anything, because clearly I do not have any clear answers as shown in my first paragraph here, but maybe think about it before you order an intake. There are solutions, I believe, if this is an issue, but they involve a grinder and it's nice to know this stuff going in. One of our friendly EFI swapper friends on this forum might be really helpful here.
I also believe, and go heavy with the grains of salt on this one, that there's no serious downside to grinding down the divider in such an intake outside of some loss of low down torque as you're effectively shortening some runners. Again, Engine Master's is probably a great place to learn more about this, and it's going to be much easier to see in real time when dyno testing instead of in a vehicle.
Good luck!
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