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Clifton
Clifton New Reader
2/9/20 8:00 a.m.

Hi SVreX,

 I have the Europa with the 2GR V6. While it is is a ton of fun, I would not go the same route  again. I'll offer some non solicited advise. I bought a cheap ($300) MK1 thinking I could use the rear subframe and suspension. I ended up only using the rear hubs and shifter. The MK1 rear subframe won't work, even if you did get it to somehow bolt in, the strut tops will be non accessible and tucked up under the rear body and not under the hood but stuck under the body as the Europa is a bit narrower. Fiero struts are shorter but still a problem. To have any reliability with the v6 torque, you'll need a turbo trans (lsd is best) and axles. 1st gear is useless though. I used a Camry ring and pinion (3.6:1). There isn't much room for pick up point locations on the engine side so the control arms end up very short. You'll have to use a Rav4 non immobilized ecu. Stock rev limit is 6400 and kills it. You can get it raised higher by Gouky.  I'm at 7600. Doing the frame isn't that bad but it is that plus making suspension that works and everything else to finish the car. I took 4 years of working on it 4-5 days a week. I looked into the Audi 4 turbo, v6 turbos and v8's before I started mine.  I would look hard into the Audi route. It's been done and it fits and someone else on here is doing one. If you can get 280-290 to the wheels, it will be the same, maybe better as the weight will be closer to center and you just need an upper control arm. If you go the 2gr route I can share any info, links, pics, ect I have.

Here's the first autocross I did after finishing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gyai_O_ijA&t=9s

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
2/9/20 8:33 a.m.

I looked up the Audi A4 B7 front suspension and found this.  Like Clifton said looks like you just need to locate the upper A arm/shock mount.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/9/20 8:40 a.m.

In reply to Clifton :

I’m really glad you chimed in. All unsolicited input is welcome (especially when experienced!)

MK1... do you mean MK1 MR2?  (Yes, you’re right the strut tops will end up directly under the bodywork)

I’m still digging through your post...

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/9/20 8:51 a.m.

In reply to Clifton :

Ok, so it sounds like you are saying you would not go the same route because of the issues with the suspension packaging and the weight balance. Am I understanding you?

Patrick
Patrick GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/9/20 8:55 a.m.

In reply to Stampie :

Crown vic front end and mad flares up front, audi out back?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/9/20 8:59 a.m.

In reply to Clifton :

Transmission...

You are recommending the turbo trans for reliability. I am assuming you mean IF I want a manual, it’s the only one to use...

I agree. 

But as a Challenge car, it is likely I would use the automatic from the 2GR donor with paddle shifters, and consider changing to a manual turbo trans at a later date. 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/9/20 9:04 a.m.

Immobilizer...

I am assuming if I retain the Avalon’s engine, trans, ECU, and whatever wiring harness I need to, that I can keep the car running for the Challenge (although it will have a lot of crap on it that I don’t want). I can remove the crap later...

Am I underestimating this?

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE HalfDork
2/9/20 10:40 a.m.
SVreX said:

Immobilizer...

I am assuming if I retain the Avalon’s engine, trans, ECU, and whatever wiring harness I need to, that I can keep the car running for the Challenge (although it will have a lot of crap on it that I don’t want). I can remove the crap later...

Am I underestimating this?

Yes.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/9/20 10:43 a.m.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Ok... explain. 

Clifton
Clifton New Reader
2/9/20 12:11 p.m.

In reply to SVreX :

Yes, MK1 Mr2,

I'm not sure on Avalons but almost everything 2GR other than some Rav4's have an immobilizer. You need the immobilizer ecu, engine ecu and paired key for it to start. You will also be stuck with a painfully low rev limit but it will work. A 7200 rev limit would be the minium I would want. This is the forum for V6 info https://www.mr2oc.com/forums/v6-mr2-forum.188/

If you decide on a manual you can use an S series trans but the ring gears are small and have broke with V6's, the clutch diameter is also smaller. E series trans can take stupid amounts of torque, although heavier.

One draw back to this engine other than frame and suspension. My car is under 1700lbs with fuel. The off idle torque was hard to manage, hard to take off smooth, hard to shift smooth and drive. I lengthened and extended the excel pedal into the front trunk and added a Pedal Commander and set it to "economy" mode. No way to get the car to be smooth other wise. A smaller displacement turbo motor would not have this problem. If you use an auto trans it may be a lot better though.

 

The weight isn't a deal killer for me but almost. My car with two people has 62% rear bias. It is pretty dialed in now and handles great but the more rear weight the quicker it will want to go when it goes. It is hard to catch compared to a near 50/50 car.

 

I would only do the Audi as the frame mods and suspension took so long to do and it is a tight fit. I would just not go through this much work again if I could make something else easily fit within the stock frame with the same outcome.

If you are 100% going 2gr. I don't know what spline is on an auto axle but using a MK1  MR2 hub makes the axles easier and it's easy to machine the front hubs to match the 4x100. Toyota made WSR's that used all MK1 hubs and converted to SLA suspension. I drilled a hole in my hub upright but their bolt on bracket way would make it easier to adjust the upper arm angle..

CV link http://interparts.com/download.htm

 

Toyota WSR

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/other/1219181948/1219181948lo.htm

I used this program to design the suspension. http://vsusp.com

/#0.8%26project_name%3Adefault%20values%26trim%7Bbody_roll_angle%3A0%7Cfront.left_bump%3A0%7Crear.left_bump%3A0%7Cfront.right_bump%3A0%7Crear.right_bump%3A0%7D%26front%7Bframe.susp_type%3A0%7Cframe.bottom_y%3A15238%7Cframe.center_to_upper_mount_x%3A49529%7Cframe.bottom_to_upper_mount_y%3A22860%7Cframe.center_to_lower_mount_x%3A44450%7Cframe.bottom_to_lower_mount_y%3A5080%7Ccontrol_arms.upper_length%3A14604%7Ccontrol_arms.lower_length%3A24764%7Cknuckles.hub_to_upper_x%3A12573%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_x%3A7619%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_y%3A8763%7Cknuckles.hub_to_upper_y%3A10413%7Cknuckles.hub_to_strut_axis%3A14000%7Cknuckles.strut_incl%3A8000%7Csteering.active%3A0%7Csteering.hub_to_outer_tie_rod_x%3A7620%7Csteering.hub_to_outer_tie_rod_y%3A7620%7Cwheels.offset%3A4445%7Cwheels.diameter%3A1500%7Cwheels.diameter_expl%3A35000%7Ctires.size_convention%3A0%7Ctires.section_width%3A22500%7Ctires.aspect_ratio%3A4500%7Ctires.diameter_expl%3A50000%7Ctires.width_expl%3A7620%7Ctires.compression%3A1270%7D%26rear%7Bframe.susp_type%3A0%7Cframe.bottom_y%3A9200%7Cframe.center_to_upper_mount_x%3A28500%7Cframe.bottom_to_upper_mount_y%3A24000%7Cframe.center_to_lower_mount_x%3A17000%7Cframe.bottom_to_lower_mount_y%3A2400%7Ccontrol_arms.upper_length%3A24800%7Ccontrol_arms.lower_length%3A37500%7Cknuckles.hub_to_upper_x%3A15000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_x%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_upper_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_strut_axis%3A14000%7Cknuckles.strut_incl%3A8000%7Csteering.active%3A0%7Csteering.hub_to_outer_tie_rod_x%3A7620%7Csteering.hub_to_outer_tie_rod_y%3A7620%7Cwheels.offset%3A4000%7Cwheels.diameter%3A1500%7Cwheels.diameter_expl%3A35000%7Ctires.size_convention%3A0%7Ctires.section_width%3A19500%7Ctires.aspect_ratio%3A4500%7Ctires.diameter_expl%3A50000%7Ctires.width_expl%3A7620%7Ctires.compression%3A0%7D%26pref%7Bdiag1.px_per_mm%3A200%7Cdiag1.front_or_rear%3Afront%7Ctab.active%3A2%7Cunits%3A0%7Cshow.f%3A1%7Cshow.ca%3A1%7Cshow.k%3A1%7Cshow.st%3A1%7Cshow.stl%3A1%7Cshow.w%3A1%7Cshow.t%3A1%7Cshow.rc%3A1%7Cshow.rcl%3A1%7Cshow.ic%3A1%7Cshow.icl%3A1%7Cshow.fvsa%3A0%7Cshow.tl%3A0%7Cshow.kpil%3A0%7Credraw_during_drag%3A1%7Cchart.x_axis_center%3A0%7Cchart.x_axis_window%3A10%7Cchart.x_axis_num_steps%3A21%7Cchart.x_axis_field%3Atrim.body_roll_angle%7Cchart.y_axis_fields%3A%5BFR%5D.general.roll_center.y%7D

 

 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/9/20 12:19 p.m.

In reply to Clifton :

Nice!  Thank you for the help!

To be clear, I have a complete running Avalon. I have the key, ECU, etc. So, I could use as much of the car as I choose. 

I’m not starting with a junkyard engine. I’m starting with a complete car.  

I realize there is a lot of stuff there I won’t eventually want (like auto trans, immobilizer, emissions, etc), but the short path to the Challenge is to keep it largely intact, and delete later. I definitely ultimately want a manual, but don’t care that much for the Challenge. 

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
2/9/20 12:34 p.m.
Patrick said:

In reply to Stampie :

Crown vic front end and mad flares up front, audi out back?

Then Paul just needs a reverse mullet to compete the look.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/9/20 12:36 p.m.

In reply to Stampie :

Not if I run the car backwards! cheeky

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
2/9/20 2:36 p.m.

What about keeping the Avalon auto trans?  Gearing is basically fine and strength should be there as well. 

EDIT:  With a 24" diameter tire and a 6400 RPM readline, the speed/gearing calculator I just used says 1st gear is good for 43 mph and 2nd is good for 74.  3rd is 99, 4th is 141.  Could just do an autocross with the lever in 2nd gear position and dragstrip in 4th and concentrate on the driving?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/9/20 9:04 p.m.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

Right. That’s what I described a little earlier. Thank you for running the calculations for me. 

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
2/9/20 9:10 p.m.

Add sportbike power.  Lotus made it light, go lighter. Worry about a reversing box after the challenge. Build a spool for the challenge, do a lsd after, chain drive, it's pretty easy. Add turbo after for even more fun?

 

Think how visceral 12,000rpm with sequential shift would be in that. How crisp with how little weight.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand Reader
2/9/20 9:27 p.m.

In reply to Apexcarver :

JThw8
JThw8 UltimaDork
2/13/20 7:30 a.m.

Just catching up, and Im sure I missed some things so if there was something specifically directed to me I apologize.

But I saw your note on building for the challenge v. building the car you want.

Build the car you want.

I built the Wartburg for the Challenge/BABE/Lemons with the thought that once all that was done I'd build it the way I wanted it and have a nice street cruiser.  Instead I ended up with a car that worked "well enough" that it seemed crazy to tear it all apart and start over again which killed my motivation.  But it didn't work well enough that I enjoyed doing anything with it so in the end, down the road it went.

Build for you, its the only way its really enjoyable and our hobbies should be enjoyable.

dherr
dherr GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
2/13/20 8:37 a.m.

Definitely agree with JThw8 on this. Your first idea was to build for the challenge and based on the limitations you described (welding, fabrication and a proper shop), I felt that the best way to achieve that goal is to chop the MR2 chassis, re-power with the Avalon drivetrain, get the proven MR2 suspension optimized and add the Europa "clothing" to the chassis to bring to the challenge. But if you really want to build a street car that you can also use for autocross and just to keep to enjoy, then build what you want. That will mean it will take much longer, cost much more money, etc.... but you already know that and you will be able to use it after the challenge. The Avalon V6 is a great engine for an MR2, since you can almost bolt it in using other Toyota model parts (transmissions, drive shafts, shift cables, etc...), but if you are going clean sheet of paper and eliminating the MR2, then you may want to reconsider what can be installed with a Lotus chassis with a modified rear suspension design. Sky is the limit as to what you can use, so many examples, but all will require lots of fabrication. The other option would be to use a more modern 4 cylinder design (like a Zetec) and run a turbo to get the performance you desire. That would likely be a much easier fit into the Lotus Chassis with minor modifications and minimize having to redesign the entire back of the chassis. Just my two cents.....

I made that mistake with my challenge Spitfire and wanted a car I could also drive on the street and use for many activities. So I sold it and built one that is much more of a road car, but likely just as fast as my old challenge car. I'll find out this spring!

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/13/20 6:21 p.m.

In reply to dherr :

I’m with you on the logic. I am not sure most people realize the chassis limitations of the Europa chassis.

Lets say all drivetrains are back on the table, and the goal is about 300 hp. Does anyone actually know an engine and trans combination that would fit in an unmodified Europa chassis and get anywhere near these numbers?

The problem is the spacing between the “Y” in the chassis and the rear wheels. The ONLY  engines that would fit are small 4 cylinders, and then they would have to mate to a longitudal transmission with side outputs. Pretty sure that eliminates the Zetec, and only leaves the Audi Fox longitudal transmission. Which would work mated to a VW 1.8T, but that trans won’t handle 300 hp. 

Its really easy to toss out engine ideas. But there are very few low cost mid engine platforms that will hit 300 hp, fit in the Europa chassis, and still have space to drive the rear wheels. 

I’m listening....

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/13/20 6:25 p.m.

I’ve considered most of these engine suggestions. Remember, I’ve been thinking this over and measuring for over 10 years. 

I certainly recognize I don’t know everything, and may have overlooked a few ideas. But I’m pretty sure these goals don’t get met without cutting (or eliminating) the Europa chassis.

dherr
dherr GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
2/13/20 8:19 p.m.

Pretty sure Brotus7's car proves the VAG 1.8T can fit between the tight V of the Europa chassis unless I missed something in his build. Most Audi's have the engine mounted front/back and thus have a transmission that will work for you. 1.8T's can get you 300 HP and the transmission should be fine in this light car. It can be made to fit, but you are going to be doing a ton of fabrication to make your own rear suspension, but the roadmap to success is already established. 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/13/20 8:39 p.m.

One other issue with the 1.8T...  the accessories are on the wrong side of the engine, and really hard to get to once in the chassis. But yes, the 1.8T is not impossible. 

JThw8
JThw8 UltimaDork
2/13/20 8:47 p.m.
SVreX said:

In reply to dherr :

I’m with you on the logic. I am not sure most people realize the chassis limitations of the Europa chassis.

Lets say all drivetrains are back on the table, and the goal is about 300 hp. Does anyone actually know an engine and trans combination that would fit in an unmodified Europa chassis and get anywhere near these numbers?

The problem is the spacing between the “Y” in the chassis and the rear wheels. The ONLY  engines that would fit are small 4 cylinders, and then they would have to mate to a longitudal transmission with side outputs. Pretty sure that eliminates the Zetec, and only leaves the Audi Fox longitudal transmission. Which would work mated to a VW 1.8T, but that trans won’t handle 300 hp. 

Its really easy to toss out engine ideas. But there are very few low cost mid engine platforms that will hit 300 hp, fit in the Europa chassis, and still have space to drive the rear wheels. 

I’m listening....

 

You are ruling out VW bug/bus transmissions why?  If you are easy on the launch they will hold up stock (CV joints are kinda your "fusable link" on those) and there are adapters to mate all kinds of interesting straight 4s to them.  The VW drag racer who I consulted with when building the Warburg was convinced the stock bug transmission was good for 250 if you didnt hammer it on a launch and none of his drag bugs ever had more than a stock trans.  Bus transmissions are even more robust.  Will you shorten its life?  Undoubtedly so, but it wont grenade right away :)

 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand Reader
2/13/20 9:08 p.m.
SVreX said:

One other issue with the 1.8T...  the accessories are on the wrong side of the engine, and really hard to get to once in the chassis. But yes, the 1.8T is not impossible. 

You're already setup to lift and lower the body .  Any possibility that once it is in you could just set it up for a "quick" release?

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