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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/14/22 3:11 p.m.

You can just see the reflective tape on the rear wheel at around 7 o'clock.

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/14/22 4:00 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Sorry to ask this Kieth but it's come up a few times recently.  
  I know you haven't had any quality  build  type problems.  All the Tesla owners I've talked with report the same.  But apparently there is a site or two who bash Tesla ownership for quality reasons etc. 

 My wife has started to repeat those as reasons not to go ahead with the purchase. 
    
Is it just anti EV people taking cheap shots or have there been some problems?  

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
4/14/22 4:11 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Sorry to ask this Kieth but it's come up a few times recently.  
  I know you haven't had any quality  build  type problems.  All the Tesla owners I've talked with report the same.  But apparently there is a site or two who bash Tesla ownership for quality reasons etc. 

 My wife has started to repeat those as reasons not to go ahead with the purchase. 
    
Is it just anti EV people taking cheap shots or have there been some problems?  

You asked Keith, but I have a friend who has owned two S's.

 

Justin said:

I had a 2013 and loved it but too many issues being such an early build so I upgraded to a 2016 that had all wheel drive, bigger battery, and ludicrous mode

 The ability to forgive or not even think about massive problems doesn't apply to any other car, or really any other non Apple product. It's weird. THat's one of the things which pushed me away (I bought a Bolt) along with the high pricing.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/14/22 4:30 p.m.

I think the owner of any Italian or British car is willing to forgive or even not think about massive problems :) Seriously, "I loved it despite the early adopter problems so I replaced it with an upgraded version" is a legitimate statement about just about anything. Especially when there's nothing else that shares the same attributes, as was the case with the Model S in 2016. 

It's almost impossible to get an unbiased viewpoint on this. Lots of people have lots of baggage, good and bad. And putting up news articles about Teslas having problems is a great way to get clicks because people love OUTRAGE especially when combined with ELON MUSK THE DEVIL. Tesla would be better off if he was not such a visible part of the company. 

I know a few Tesla owners who are fairly well balanced people. Their experiences haven't been 100% trouble-free - one of them has his car in for a warranty replacement front upper control arm and something about a front seat motor. These are things that happen to pretty much any automaker. Heck, GM has had a few whoopsies themselves with their EV. Mazda keeps redesigning the transmission in the ND Miata to keep it from grenading when you autocross. The current Explorer has had a recall to replace parts that were already recalled once already.  I've told my Dodge ball joint story a few times. But this small Tesla fleet of my friends, overall, has been as reliable as anything. Mine's been solid, it was obviously built on a good day. Even the panel gaps are on part with other mass production vehicles. I will be watching those upper control arms, though, they do seem to be a weak point in the platform.

There's no easy answer for this. I guess Consumer Reports is probably the best bet for trying to judge actual quality without the noise.

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/14/22 4:49 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thanks, great response. I bought 20 new Chevy's in my lifetime and no not all of them were flawless but they dealt with things in a prompt manner and  provided a replacement when called for.  
    
 I still think Tesla is the answer while the Chevy Bolt is a tad less expensive I don't think she'd accept it.   With the average new car at $37,000 Tesla's near $40,000 isn't out of line and I believe the value in Tesla is enough to offset the difference. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/14/22 4:59 p.m.

The big differentiator between a Bolt and a 3 from a powertrain tech standpoint is the ability to fast charge. The Bolt can do 55kW, the Tesla up to 250 kW. If you're not road-tripping, that's irrelevant. If you're going to need to recharge mid-trip, that becomes a factor to take into account. 

84FSP
84FSP UberDork
4/14/22 8:14 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

The big differentiator between a Bolt and a 3 from a powertrain tech standpoint is the ability to fast charge. The Bolt can do 55kW, the Tesla up to 250 kW. If you're not road-tripping, that's irrelevant. If you're going to need to recharge mid-trip, that becomes a factor to take into account. 

This - the charging speed is the reason my 3 is my work road trip mobile.  Being able to stop halfway to detroit and grab 125miles of range in 15min is perfect. 

Erich
Erich UberDork
4/14/22 8:30 p.m.
frenchyd said:

 I still think Tesla is the answer while the Chevy Bolt is a tad less expensive I don't think she'd accept it.   With the average new car at $37,000 Tesla's near $40,000 isn't out of line and I believe the value in Tesla is enough to offset the difference. 

One thing to note, there aren't any new Teslas available at near $40k anymore. The least expensive model 3 is nearing $50k at this point. A Long Range model 3 is nearing $60k.

java230
java230 PowerDork
4/15/22 8:58 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Can you share the reflective product you used? 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/15/22 9:15 p.m.
tuna55 said:

 The ability to forgive or not even think about massive problems doesn't apply to any other car, or really any other non Apple product. It's weird. THat's one of the things which pushed me away (I bought a Bolt) along with the high pricing.

Let's face it, if car buyers were not willing to forgive, VW (or any one of many makes) would have gone out of business ages ago.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/15/22 9:34 p.m.
java230 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Can you share the reflective product you used? 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XWYS5Q2

I used the 19" version because that was the OD of the circle I wanted to use after measuring the covers. Just about perfect. One kit does 4 car wheels. 

java230
java230 PowerDork
4/16/22 12:32 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thank you! I will order a set sized for my motorcycle laughthat's the same ones I was looking at, but figured I'd ask! 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/2/22 11:48 a.m.

There's a Tesla running the One Lap this week, for those who haven't been paying casual attention to the event. That's exactly the sort of road trip that EVs are supposed to be bad at, but short quali sessions are what they're really good at :) It would be interesting to talk to the drivers about how the car affected their week. Are forced catnaps during charging stops actually beneficial?

There was a software update last night that has a bunch of small improvements to things like climate control pre-conditioning (one of my favorite features, getting into a pre-cooled or pre-heated car feels like true luxury), better Supercharging time estimates, etc. But the biggest one is the return of seat heater icons to the "permanent icon" list along the bottom of the screen. When they'd gone to a secondary menu, they also gained an auto setting meaning you shouldn't need to access them regularly. But Janel is the sort of person who will set a hotel room thermostat to 85F if it's cold because she's convinced it'll heat up faster, and she demanded manual control over her seat heater so she could set it to "broil" when necessary. I had actually been thinking about building her some hardware buttons, now it's no longer necessary :) 

Thanks to constant iteration, our car is starting to look like an older model. Things like the heat pump and the dual pane front windows are an obvious change, and there are some fairly significant changes in the production with the introduction of the Giga Press castings. Not enough to make me consider trading in, but when you start to look at it there has been a fair bit of invisible evolution going on. Those dual pane front windows are an interesting retrofit option, I'm not sure how much extra noise isolation they'd provide but Model Y owners seem to think they're pretty important. A new set of tires might be more useful in that regard. Depending on what happens with the charging infrastructure in the next decade, I may have to upgrade the modem to allow for CCS use at some point.

This most recent update I found interesting - the central processor has been updated for...reasons...and the new one is power-hungry enough to actually make a dent in available range. This was a notice sent to a reservation holder. The ratings are the European standard, it's the drop that I noticed.

We have updated Tesla Model 3s to optimize the touchscreen experience with our new on-board computer. This hardware change requires more power, resulting in a small drop in range. Your Model 3's range is now 374 miles (602 km) WLTP, 14 miles (22 km) less than originally reported."

I've never felt the touchscreen experience to be particularly slow, other than a slow boot time for things like Hulu or Netflix which I rarely use anyhow. I hope the interface designers don't start demanding a bunch more processing power, slowing down the older cars. Not on the core functions, anyhow. I don't care if there are games that our car can't handle.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
5/2/22 12:10 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

There's a Tesla running the One Lap this week, for those who haven't been paying casual attention to the event. That's exactly the sort of road trip that EVs are supposed to be bad at, but short quali sessions are what they're really good at :) It would be interesting to talk to the drivers about how the car affected their week. Are forced catnaps during charging stops actually beneficial?

Love this.

 

I still hear the "but they aren't reliable!" "But they can't do roadtrips!" "But they don't have torque" (the latter is particularly befuddling) so more events like OneLap should be nice to see pan out.

RevRico
RevRico UltimaDork
5/2/22 12:38 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

If memory serves, because I can't be bothered to use the search function and sort through a few hundred threads, two separate model 3s entered One Lap last year, and one finished. It wasn't a front runner, but it finished, which I think was the entrants goal. 

Again memory is fuzzy, but they made every event and checkpoint, they just might have stayed at different hotels than the other cars. I think throughout the week they wound up like 3 hours "behind" because the Midwest is basically empty and extra time to charge as insurance. 

But I know damn well it did happen because I keep referring to it when "ZOMG!! Only 300 miles to a charge? That's way too low"rears its annoying head.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/2/22 12:47 p.m.

I thought there might have been one last year as well but I couldn't remember for sure. It looks like a Model 3 actually won the "Alternative Fuel" class in 2019 so this has been going on for a few years.

Also, apparently Brock is an EV fan and predicts that if the One Lap goes on long enough, it'll eventually be all-electric. He also said, about the possibility of an overall win,  "It's a while. It's a while. It's like self-driving cars -- it'll ultimately happen, but not in my lifetime." That was in 2019. So far this year, a Model S Plaid has managed to win one of the rounds outright, more than 5 seconds ahead of a certain papaya McLaren. So it's becoming more possible.

 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/2/22 1:19 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

There's a Tesla running the One Lap this week, for those who haven't been paying casual attention to the event. That's exactly the sort of road trip that EVs are supposed to be bad at, but short quali sessions are what they're really good at :) It would be interesting to talk to the drivers about how the car affected their week. Are forced catnaps during charging stops actually beneficial?

There was a software update last night that has a bunch of small improvements to things like climate control pre-conditioning (one of my favorite features, getting into a pre-cooled or pre-heated car feels like true luxury), better Supercharging time estimates, etc. But the biggest one is the return of seat heater icons to the "permanent icon" list along the bottom of the screen. When they'd gone to a secondary menu, they also gained an auto setting meaning you shouldn't need to access them regularly. But Janel is the sort of person who will set a hotel room thermostat to 85F if it's cold because she's convinced it'll heat up faster, and she demanded manual control over her seat heater so she could set it to "broil" when necessary. I had actually been thinking about building her some hardware buttons, now it's no longer necessary :) 

Thanks to constant iteration, our car is starting to look like an older model. Things like the heat pump and the dual pane front windows are an obvious change, and there are some fairly significant changes in the production with the introduction of the Giga Press castings. Not enough to make me consider trading in, but when you start to look at it there has been a fair bit of invisible evolution going on. Those dual pane front windows are an interesting retrofit option, I'm not sure how much extra noise isolation they'd provide but Model Y owners seem to think they're pretty important. A new set of tires might be more useful in that regard. Depending on what happens with the charging infrastructure in the next decade, I may have to upgrade the modem to allow for CCS use at some point.

This most recent update I found interesting - the central processor has been updated for...reasons...and the new one is power-hungry enough to actually make a dent in available range. This was a notice sent to a reservation holder. The ratings are the European standard, it's the drop that I noticed.

We have updated Tesla Model 3s to optimize the touchscreen experience with our new on-board computer. This hardware change requires more power, resulting in a small drop in range. Your Model 3's range is now 374 miles (602 km) WLTP, 14 miles (22 km) less than originally reported."

I've never felt the touchscreen experience to be particularly slow, other than a slow boot time for things like Hulu or Netflix which I rarely use anyhow. I hope the interface designers don't start demanding a bunch more processing power, slowing down the older cars. Not on the core functions, anyhow. I don't care if there are games that our car can't handle.

I'm interested in the advances.   You said they weren't enough for you to consider trading in.  What about holding on?   
Our plan is to use the Tesla Model 3 for the rest of our life.  ( actuarial table gives us 12 & 10 years). 
 With aging transportation becomes less and less critical. But the drivers assistance features will be greater and greater in importance. 
   Two questions.  First do you foresee the potential for the lower price Tesla in the next 2 years?  What about durability of that model to meet our goals?  Yes, I realize you're not Elon Musk. ;-)

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/2/22 1:30 p.m.

I planned on long-term ownership when we bought it and we're still working under that assumption. The car it replaced had been purchased in 2000. At the time of purchase I felt the platform was mature enough not to be some sort of punchline after 15 years, the way the i-MiEV is even though they almost overlapped in sales timeframes. I think it's holding up well in that regard. The fact that the upgrades are invisible (with the exception of the slightly tweaked interior styling in the latest cars) makes it easier to keep thinking of the car as the current model. Tesla seems to put some importance on this, as the new S looks almost identical to the old.

Lower price is tough to forecast given the mayhem going on these days. It's certainly a focus at Tesla, with things like the Giga Press and structural battery packs making production easier. I do wonder what collision repair will look like on a cast car. There's a different battery chemistry that's starting trials in the US, called Lithium Iron Phosphate. It may have a longer lifespan although it's got some slightly different characteristics - and from what we're seeing of battery degradation, lifespan isn't a significant concern. Durability of the rest of the platform will depend on the designers.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/2/22 1:34 p.m.

One thing I have learned from my insider friends is that the 3 was apparently supposed to be a hatch. It would be a pretty good one, I think. It's likely that cost was the reason that was abandoned.

My biggest complaint about the car overall is rear visibility. The reverse camera isn't just a nice little perk, it's required. I don't know if the change from hatch to sedan had an effect there or not.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/23/22 11:50 p.m.

It's a sad time. Someone at Tesla noticed we were still getting free Supercharging (it was supposed to end in October 2019) and turned off the tap. So I got to pay for electricity on a road trip for the first time. We basically got a bonus trip to Vegas and a bonus trip to Denver out of it, that's about 1500 miles. We didn't get to take full advantage of the free Supercharging because we didn't go on a lot of trips in 2020-21 for obvious reasons.

Turns out Superchargers are between 39c and 43c per kWh in Colorado. I don't know why there was a variance, but at 43c we're paying the same as a 30 mpg car burning 87 octane - ie, my CRX. I got spoiled being able to drive for free, but since I pay so little for power the rest of the time it's hard to complain.

The car was unsettled on rutted interstates, I need to check the toe. Based on tire wear, it's not quite right in the front. The Denver pavement also made it pretty clear the existing tires are getting pretty worn, tire noise was noticeable. That's a feature of Denver highways, they're just noisy. Not sure why, something about the aggregate in the mix.

I learned a new trick the other day. You can share destinations from Google Maps to the car - you just hit "share" on the Maps app and select the Tesla app. Then, when you get in the car it's ready to go where you want to go. That's pretty handy when you're making plans in the hotel room, there's no need to enter the destination into the car's nav system. Since the nav system also calculates energy use and charging stops (it'll tell you how much power will be left when you get where you're going as well as how much power will remain if you make it a round trip) it's much better to use it than one on your phone.

Otherwise, it was a normal road trip. We went to a concert at Red Rocks during a pretty cold evening - 37F as the low - and the ability to pre-warm the car as the band played their finale sure was appreciated.

Rons
Rons GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
5/24/22 1:52 a.m.

Re the price of charging I read somewhere they have a time of day and rate of charge going on in places so pricing ends up on a matrix.

Toyman!
Toyman! GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/24/22 7:46 a.m.

Looks like Colorado's average energy rate is about 14 cents. That's a pretty good markup considering there is no building to maintain and no attendants to pay.

Elon is making a better profit than a gas station with almost zero overhead. 

Doing some reading, if he opens the supercharger network to everyone, he should bring in about $25 billion a year. That's not exactly pocket change, even for him. 

 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
5/24/22 8:11 a.m.
Toyman! said:

Looks like Colorado's average energy rate is about 14 cents. That's a pretty good markup considering there is no building to maintain and no attendants to pay.

Elon is making a better profit than a gas station with almost zero overhead. 

Doing some reading, if he opens the supercharger network to everyone, he should bring in about $25 billion a year. That's not exactly pocket change, even for him. 

 

Interesting. We haven't paid to charge when destination charging yet, I am curious to see how this pans out. It doesn't matter too much for my driving profile, but it may matter more in the future.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/24/22 8:39 a.m.

Any idea why CarPlay still isn't supported? That was one of the reasons I sold my Leaf, but it seems odd that Tesla wouldn't support such a common feature. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/24/22 9:34 a.m.
Toyman! said:

Looks like Colorado's average energy rate is about 14 cents. That's a pretty good markup considering there is no building to maintain and no attendants to pay.

Elon is making a better profit than a gas station with almost zero overhead. 

Doing some reading, if he opens the supercharger network to everyone, he should bring in about $25 billion a year. That's not exactly pocket change, even for him. 

The cost of Supercharging is about 38c in California, making it a lot closer to domestic electricity prices. A friend who works on the charging side of Tesla (I think he's in the home charging/Powerwall area) was surprised by my CO costs. I don't know why it's higher in CO, but I do know that since selling energy is usually only done by utilities there are some odd variations from state to state - sometimes it's done by the kWh, sometimes by time.

I have invoices for some of the charging stops but not the final (least expensive) one yet. Looks like the base rate is either 39 or 40 cents plus sales tax.  Since sales tax varies by location, that could explain why I saw a range from 39 to 43 cents effective cost. 

Destination charging is far more likely to be free. We've used it a few times and it's usually a no-cost perk, kinda like how some places charge for wifi.

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