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tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/9/22 8:19 a.m.
Erich said:

The 3-row Kia/Hyundai twins inspire more confidence to me than the Buzz, and probably will hit the market around the same time. 

We have been happy with our Pacifica Hybrid so far, but if it was available in 2020, we would have been looking hard at the new Toyota hybrid van even though it doesn't plug in. Chrysler has been saying its first EV will probably be a Pacifica but who knows when that will happen. 

My coworkers with the Model X have not been super happy with them, lots of problems with those rear doors.

Those rear doors are a good example of change for changes sake, especially when the fronts are normal. Also both the X and Y are extravagantly expensive.

 

 

dyintorace
dyintorace GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
6/9/22 8:59 a.m.
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) said:
Keith Tanner said:

Sounds like you need to buy an ID Buzz and report back :)

It's gonna have the same miserable HMI (all touch controls and haptic nonsense) as the ID.4 and Mk8 GTI/Golf R. Such a buzzkill, pun not intended.

It's that bad? I really want the ID Buzz to succeed, but both you and Jason Cammisa ID.4 post seem to despise the ID.4. Super disappointing and doesn't bode well for the Buzz. sad

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/9/22 9:49 a.m.
dyintorace said:
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) said:
Keith Tanner said:

Sounds like you need to buy an ID Buzz and report back :)

It's gonna have the same miserable HMI (all touch controls and haptic nonsense) as the ID.4 and Mk8 GTI/Golf R. Such a buzzkill, pun not intended.

It's that bad? I really want the ID Buzz to succeed, but both you and Jason Cammisa ID.4 post seem to despise the ID.4. Super disappointing and doesn't bode well for the Buzz. sad

Wow that was harsh.

 

I want a car with the same specs as the Bolt with the form factor of the ID Buzz. I don't need gimmicks, don't want a steering yoke, don't want automated driving. Looking at the Hyundai Seven, the Kia EV9, the Mercedes EQB, the ID Buzz, even the Tesla Y, which has rear seats too small to really be considered, they will likely all be too expensive and/or silly to be realistic.

 

I just want a longer Bolt with sliding doors. That's really it. We even toyed with the idea of buying another Bolt and just caravaning everywhere, or buying a first generation Leaf and just not going far as a family. Maybe I buy a wrecked Bolt and a Odyssey with a bad transmission and weld the bottom of the Bolt to the top of the Ody. That's probably a good idea.

Erich
Erich UberDork
6/9/22 9:50 a.m.

VW has been pretty universally criticized for both the interface and the speed of their touchscreen interfaces. VW has always had problems with controls though, right? Like old Golfs were notorious for buttons not working properly or the surface control labels wearing prematurely.

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
6/9/22 12:58 p.m.
dyintorace said:
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) said:
Keith Tanner said:

Sounds like you need to buy an ID Buzz and report back :)

It's gonna have the same miserable HMI (all touch controls and haptic nonsense) as the ID.4 and Mk8 GTI/Golf R. Such a buzzkill, pun not intended.

It's that bad? I really want the ID Buzz to succeed, but both you and Jason Cammisa ID.4 post seem to despise the ID.4. Super disappointing and doesn't bode well for the Buzz. sad

Yeah. It's miserable. I just turned in a Mk8 Golf R and the way you're expected to interact with it is infuriating. A few details without posting my entire review in a forum thread:

  • Light and defrost controls are a touch panel with no easy way to identify controls eyes-free while driving. Have fun in a downpour!
  • Main audio volume and dual-zone HVAC temp controls are touch controls directly under the infotainment screen, and they're not backlit at night. Want to use the touchscreen? You'll rest your hand there while driving to steady it and now the temperature is turning up.
  • Sunroof control is a swipey dealie. Why?
  • Steering wheel controls are giant plastic "button" pads that have haptic feedback so it buzzes wherever you push in. Difficult to identify and use at speed.
  • Can't adjust driver assist options unless stopped if you press the main "Assist" button on the center stack. Use the button on the end of the turn signal and you can.

There's more but I'm going in to a meeting. It's like VW changed things for change's sake and I'm not entirely sure why. Touch controls are a distraction and danger at speed – I have said this for years – and they are implemented because consumers think screens means "high tech" and "cool" and it's cheaper for the OEMs. I loathe Teslas and the big screens Ford and others are doing, but at least with those brands, if they use a button it's an actual pushes-in button.

I had a 2022 Civic Si prior to the Golf R and it was blessedly simple by comparison.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/9/22 1:13 p.m.
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) said:
dyintorace said:
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) said:
Keith Tanner said:

Sounds like you need to buy an ID Buzz and report back :)

It's gonna have the same miserable HMI (all touch controls and haptic nonsense) as the ID.4 and Mk8 GTI/Golf R. Such a buzzkill, pun not intended.

It's that bad? I really want the ID Buzz to succeed, but both you and Jason Cammisa ID.4 post seem to despise the ID.4. Super disappointing and doesn't bode well for the Buzz. sad

Yeah. It's miserable. I just turned in a Mk8 Golf R and the way you're expected to interact with it is infuriating. A few details without posting my entire review in a forum thread:

  • Light and defrost controls are a touch panel with no easy way to identify controls eyes-free while driving. Have fun in a downpour!
  • Main audio volume and dual-zone HVAC temp controls are touch controls directly under the infotainment screen, and they're not backlit at night. Want to use the touchscreen? You'll rest your hand there while driving to steady it and now the temperature is turning up.
  • Sunroof control is a swipey dealie. Why?
  • Steering wheel controls are giant plastic "button" pads that have haptic feedback so it buzzes wherever you push in. Difficult to identify and use at speed.
  • Can't adjust driver assist options unless stopped if you press the main "Assist" button on the center stack. Use the button on the end of the turn signal and you can.

There's more but I'm going in to a meeting. It's like VW changed things for change's sake and I'm not entirely sure why. Touch controls are a distraction and danger at speed – I have said this for years – and they are implemented because consumers think screens means "high tech" and "cool" and it's cheaper for the OEMs. I loathe Teslas and the big screens Ford and others are doing, but at least with those brands, if they use a button it's an actual pushes-in button.

I had a 2022 Civic Si prior to the Golf R and it was blessedly simple by comparison.

I'll have to try it myself. While everything you've written here is indeed annoying to me, the Tesla is guilty of many of the same sins. Perhaps it's just better at the implementation of those weird ideas than VW?

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
6/9/22 1:20 p.m.
tuna55 said:

I'll have to try it myself. While everything you've written here is indeed annoying to me, the Tesla is guilty of many of the same sins. Perhaps it's just better at the implementation of those weird ideas than VW?

I don't find Tesla's UI particularly impressive either, for what it's worth. I think my (and Jason's) irritation comes from the fact that VW has historically been pretty driving-focused and thought-out in how the human interacts with the machine, and this is so different (and difficult to use) by comparison. 

And yes, Tesla's implementation of everything is better – if only just. Best part on the ID.4 is that if you want to roll the rear windows down, you must tap a little spot behind the front window controls marked "Rear," tap it four more times because it didn't register at first, and then use the front controls to roll down the rear windows. 

Again, innovation for innovation's sake, not because it makes the product tangibly better or safer or easier to use.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/9/22 2:07 p.m.
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) said:
tuna55 said:

I'll have to try it myself. While everything you've written here is indeed annoying to me, the Tesla is guilty of many of the same sins. Perhaps it's just better at the implementation of those weird ideas than VW?

I don't find Tesla's UI particularly impressive either, for what it's worth. I think my (and Jason's) irritation comes from the fact that VW has historically been pretty driving-focused and thought-out in how the human interacts with the machine, and this is so different (and difficult to use) by comparison. 

And yes, Tesla's implementation of everything is better – if only just. Best part on the ID.4 is that if you want to roll the rear windows down, you must tap a little spot behind the front window controls marked "Rear," tap it four more times because it didn't register at first, and then use the front controls to roll down the rear windows. 

Again, innovation for innovation's sake, not because it makes the product tangibly better or safer or easier to use.

Yeah that jiives with the Tesla oddities that I noticed. Silly, unusual, and unhelpful things.

Maybe the Canoo will be the right racehorse? Why does everyone have to radically recreate every little thing just to produce an EV? Just make it like a car.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
6/9/22 2:22 p.m.

Regarding the turn signal on the Model Y. It is my understanding that Tesla has a strategic partnership with both Mercedes (Daimler) and Hyundai, that's why the gear selector and the turn signal are Mercedes parts. 

The Model Y that was loaned to me for a couple of weeks had the same gear selector as an A200 I rented in Europe. 

I have to agree the turn signal would be best left alone. Newer BMWs are like that and every time I take my wife's newer 3 series and use the turn signal I feel like I need to start lifting weights with my finger. It takes an awful lot of force to engage. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/9/22 2:39 p.m.

I really and truly want the front of a Bolt just stuck on the back of a minivan. I'd settle for the same from basically any manufacturer who can make that price point. 

 

What world do we live in where the cheapest three row EV next year might be the Mercedes EQB??

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/9/22 2:57 p.m.
Slippery said:

Regarding the turn signal on the Model Y. It is my understanding that Tesla has a strategic partnership with both Mercedes (Daimler) and Hyundai, that's why the gear selector and the turn signal are Mercedes parts. 

The Model Y that was loaned to me for a couple of weeks had the same gear selector as an A200 I rented in Europe. 

I have to agree the turn signal would be best left alone. Newer BMWs are like that and every time I take my wife's newer 3 series and use the turn signal I feel like I need to start lifting weights with my finger. It takes an awful lot of force to engage. 

Mercedes has the gear selector on the stalk as well? I didn't know that. It's not a bad idea overall, but it takes up space I would rather have for a wiper stalk. What does Mercedes do for wipers? Honestly I think we ought to go back to the 60s with Dodge and just have some buttons on the dash for P, R, N, D, L, or the tiny stick some minivans used sticking out of the dash, or even the silly rotary thing the Pacifica has. All are better than the stalk I think, if that gives me my wiper stalk back. If it doesn't, then I don't care really.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
6/9/22 3:13 p.m.
tuna55 said:
Slippery said:

Regarding the turn signal on the Model Y. It is my understanding that Tesla has a strategic partnership with both Mercedes (Daimler) and Hyundai, that's why the gear selector and the turn signal are Mercedes parts. 

The Model Y that was loaned to me for a couple of weeks had the same gear selector as an A200 I rented in Europe. 

I have to agree the turn signal would be best left alone. Newer BMWs are like that and every time I take my wife's newer 3 series and use the turn signal I feel like I need to start lifting weights with my finger. It takes an awful lot of force to engage. 

Mercedes has the gear selector on the stalk as well? I didn't know that. It's not a bad idea overall, but it takes up space I would rather have for a wiper stalk. What does Mercedes do for wipers? Honestly I think we ought to go back to the 60s with Dodge and just have some buttons on the dash for P, R, N, D, L, or the tiny stick some minivans used sticking out of the dash, or even the silly rotary thing the Pacifica has. All are better than the stalk I think, if that gives me my wiper stalk back. If it doesn't, then I don't care really.

Yes, the gear selector on Tesla cars is a Mercedes Benz part ... probably the whole steering column is. 

The wiper is on the left, along with the turn signals. I believe that goes back many years as my '85 W126 had them on the left side as well. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
6/10/22 5:45 a.m.
Slippery said:
tuna55 said:
Slippery said:

Regarding the turn signal on the Model Y. It is my understanding that Tesla has a strategic partnership with both Mercedes (Daimler) and Hyundai, that's why the gear selector and the turn signal are Mercedes parts. 

The Model Y that was loaned to me for a couple of weeks had the same gear selector as an A200 I rented in Europe. 

I have to agree the turn signal would be best left alone. Newer BMWs are like that and every time I take my wife's newer 3 series and use the turn signal I feel like I need to start lifting weights with my finger. It takes an awful lot of force to engage. 

Mercedes has the gear selector on the stalk as well? I didn't know that. It's not a bad idea overall, but it takes up space I would rather have for a wiper stalk. What does Mercedes do for wipers? Honestly I think we ought to go back to the 60s with Dodge and just have some buttons on the dash for P, R, N, D, L, or the tiny stick some minivans used sticking out of the dash, or even the silly rotary thing the Pacifica has. All are better than the stalk I think, if that gives me my wiper stalk back. If it doesn't, then I don't care really.

Yes, the gear selector on Tesla cars is a Mercedes Benz part ... probably the whole steering column is. 

The wiper is on the left, along with the turn signals. I believe that goes back many years as my '85 W126 had them on the left side as well. 

If Tesla had used the left stalk as well, so the signals and the wipers were on there together, it would really improve the car. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
7/26/22 1:59 p.m.

I am reaching 60K this week, so I did the math again. With gas as high as it has been we have been transitioning a lot of trips to the Bolt, having them run after work or while I am out and about rather than firing up the mighty Pentastar whenever possible. I've done 10K in about the last three months. The savings over gasoline has increased by nearly $1300 net during that period. Range is steady at 250 and change in the summer with AC on charging at 90%, showing a 4.1 mi/kwh, and well over 300 miles of range with the HVAC off. It continues to be the easy stress-free inexpensive way to get us around. Even after the new generation of Bolt, even after the Niro and Kona, even after the Model 3 and Y, even after numerous other expensive offerings between when the Bolt was released in 2017 and today, it still remains my choice for the $/mile maximization for my use.

Erich
Erich UberDork
7/27/22 11:32 a.m.

If I had to buy a car today I'd be buying a Bolt. It's somewhat tempting to trade in my 40k mile i3 and get a Bolt since there's very little difference in price. 

 

edit: looks like the 2023 price drop is already in effect, they have a bunch of cash offers on the 2022 models now. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/22 12:02 p.m.

Are they delivering 2022s yet? I thought they were last in line for the batteries, so the 2023s were being delivered before the 2022 fleet got the recall performed.

Given GM's loose connection between MSRP and actual selling price, I was skeptical the price drop was going to actually make a difference to the selling price of Bolts. But it did a great job of putting the car back at the forefront of people's minds.

Erich
Erich UberDork
7/27/22 12:22 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

that's interesting - I thought the recall didn't apply to 2022 models but you're correct.

It looks like they lifted the stop-sale in April and some are being sold now, I would assume with replaced batteries. 

sevenracer
sevenracer HalfDork
7/27/22 2:24 p.m.

Kind of off-topic, but am I the only one who thinks it's hilarious that after a recall of epic scale related to battery fires, Chevy announces their newest EV:  the "Blazer"?

NOTE: I'm not anti Chevy (wife drives a Volt) and admire their longstanding commitment to making EV's viable, but attaching that legacy name to their new EV is...unfortunate.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/22 8:20 p.m.

In reply to sevenracer :

If Dodge does not come out with a Charger EV I will be sorely disappointed. 

Erich
Erich UberDork
7/28/22 6:46 a.m.

And now a congressional expansion of the tax cuts is back on the table, which means Chevy Bolts could potentially be sold for less than $20k brand new. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
7/28/22 8:15 a.m.
Erich said:

And now a congressional expansion of the tax cuts is back on the table, which means Chevy Bolts could potentially be sold for less than $20k brand new. 

That's incredible.

Now pls make a longer one with three rows of seats for my second car.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
7/28/22 8:27 a.m.
Erich said:

And now a congressional expansion of the tax cuts is back on the table, which means Chevy Bolts could potentially be sold for less than $20k brand new. 

Damn.  I almost want this instead of a Maverick for a DD.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
7/28/22 10:05 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
Erich said:

And now a congressional expansion of the tax cuts is back on the table, which means Chevy Bolts could potentially be sold for less than $20k brand new. 

Damn.  I almost want this instead of a Maverick for a DD.

The only reason not to, esp for a second car, is if you really actually need cargo carrying capacity aside from a generous hatch. The cost savings are tremendous.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
7/28/22 12:08 p.m.
tuna55 said:

The only reason not to, esp for a second car, is if you really actually need cargo carrying capacity aside from a generous hatch. The cost savings are tremendous.

Yeah, cargo capacity is a big draw for the Maverick.  Better for generally moving around big stuff, better for mountain biking, etc.  But 95% of the time the Bolt is the better car.

dj06482 (Forum Supporter)
dj06482 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/29/22 1:53 p.m.

We sat in a Bolt EUV, and the difference in 2nd row legroom compared with the standard Bolt is obvious. (And the regular Bolt isn't short in rear seat legroom.) Unfortunately, space behind the 2nd row actually shrinks slightly with the EUV model.
 

An AWD, 3 row minivan EV would be great, but I would settle for the Bolt underpinnings with the body of say a Rav4.

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