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Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 MegaDork
11/6/17 5:03 p.m.

CONVERSION TO BUILD THREAD STARTS ON PAGE 4. But the first 3 pages are a good read, and a great intro to this. 

 

 

So, brainstorm while cleaning. 

Take na engine, boost, and tune to run on the new boost.

Add intercooler. 

Add nitrous.

Add meth injection to further reduce charge temps.

Re-tune for ALL at the same time. 

 

Is it too much? Or has someone already done this? Seems like it could work for the challenge. 

Nitrous, meth, and boost on dragstrip. Boost with meth on autocross.  

Low boost for everything else.

 

What sayeth the hive?

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UberDork
11/6/17 5:08 p.m.

What block are we talking about? Sounds like a recipe for very high cylinder pressure

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
11/6/17 5:16 p.m.
ebonyandivory said:

What block are we talking about? Sounds like a recipe for very high cylinder pressure

Or very low cylinder pressure. 

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 MegaDork
11/6/17 5:18 p.m.

Stock gm 3400. I may port and polish the heads....

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 MegaDork
11/6/17 5:19 p.m.

Im guessing that this idea is a hand grenade with the pin pulled?

Apple Cougar Mellonseed
Apple Cougar Mellonseed MegaDork
11/6/17 5:28 p.m.

It can use all of that just fine. Once.

 

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
11/6/17 5:49 p.m.
Dusterbd13 said:

So, brainstorm while cleaning. 

Take na engine, boost, and tune to run on the new boost.

Add intercooler. 

Add nitrous.

Add meth injection to further reduce charge temps.

Re-tune for ALL at the same time. 

 

Is it too much? Or has someone already done this? Seems like it could work for the challenge. 

Nitrous, meth, and boost on dragstrip. Boost with meth on autocross.  

Low boost for everything else.

 

What sayeth the hive?

I'd drop the static compression a bit with a thicker headgasket, then combine the boost and intercooler as one step.

Then, once that is tuned on pump gas, look at creating a tune for E85 along with a way to either have a separate fuel system for that or add a sensor to determine the amount of ethonal and allow the EFI to manage the switch over itself.  Depends on how smart your EFI solution is.  With E85 you can raise the boost level to compensate for the low static compression.

Nitrous can be added as a final step, especially if it is a wet system as its fairly self-contained and only used for the drags, which is the last event before the concours, so if you blow it up after making a couple of passes without it and then while tuning it, you'll be fine.

Honestly, while that's a lot of stuff to throw at an engine, if you manage the heat properly and slowly raise the boost and nitrous levels while watching the data logs, you should be able to headoff any major catastrophies long enough to make it through the Challenge.

Dirtydog
Dirtydog Reader
11/6/17 6:01 p.m.

As Stefan said.  But one proviso.  At the drags set it on kill, and have a tow strap, kitty litter,  and a big broom handy.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 MegaDork
11/6/17 6:04 p.m.

The ecm im planning to use is the stock 04 Buick rendezvous ecm. Guy called sinister performance offered to tune it for cheap.

I know some gms of the era were flex fuel, though I dont know about this one. 

E85 may be interesting. I dont know jack squat about it though, so thats a whole nother research rabbit hole. Hell, ive never boosted anything before, let alone....

Anyway, were theoretically possible here.  

Would nitrous and meth essentially be the same thing?

And nitrous would be wet system. With bottle heater. Probably only a 150 shot though....

Or smaller.

conev8r
conev8r New Reader
11/6/17 6:20 p.m.

Ridiculous? Yes.

Challenge fun? Yes.

Do I say go for it and see what happens? Hell yeah! I wanna see this!

Do as Stefan said, and it should be able to make it through the challenge. Definitely do the intercooler as part of the boost project. If you can meth it cheaply enough, might make sense to do that at the same time, too. E85 and a thicker set of head gaskets and upgraded head studs is a good call. Please let us know which lane you plan on oiling, too. winkcheeky

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 MegaDork
11/6/17 6:28 p.m.

I dont wanna be "that guy ", but most spectacular failure is an award.....

 

Agreed intercooler should be done with the initial boost build. Dunno why i thought it would be better in stages on that one.

Also, if i remember correctly, theres a better flowing head with bigger chambers.  But that gets into real money, which would suck to scatter....

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
11/6/17 7:36 p.m.

I see your idea and raise a question, because it needs an answer, are you sure you’ll have enough port volume, air flow is irreverent at this point, to accomplish this?

My feelings on the whole thing is it’s overkill for the given power level. Dump the intercooler for the rest for injectables. Now if you want to use the nitrous sprayed against the intercooler.....  You’re still only going to get the air so cold....

SaltyDog
SaltyDog Reader
11/6/17 7:43 p.m.

Hmmm.....

Nitrous and Turbo....

Snort and Blown Racing Team??devil

 

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 MegaDork
11/6/17 7:43 p.m.

Nitrous sprayed against the intercooler?

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
11/6/17 7:49 p.m.

Skip the turbo. That's just a lot of extra cost and complication. Nitrous adds boost just fine! 

Retard the timing, and crank away at your wet kit.

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
11/6/17 7:53 p.m.

Watch engine masters on the nitrous episode. They were putting like a 500 shot of nitrous into a stock bottom end before they had problems. Make sure you have enough fuel, and then push the button.

(Guess what I've been reading about today hahaha)

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
11/6/17 8:00 p.m.
Dusterbd13 said:

Nitrous sprayed against the intercooler?

Yup

sleepyhead
sleepyhead HalfDork
11/6/17 8:02 p.m.
Dusterbd13 said:

Nitrous sprayed against the intercooler?

you could probably setup a water sprayer on the intercooler for cheaper may not be as effective...
 

also, wasn't someone using nitrous to spool up a turbo faster... thought I saw something about scca banning that recently?

there's an element of this that sounds like the "belt and suspenders with a second pair of suspenders"...
but, I'm still interested to see what comes out of this. 

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UberDork
11/6/17 8:05 p.m.

In reply to Dusterbd13 :

It’s worth a couple horsepower because it cools the intercooler down therefore cooling the incoming air.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltraDork
11/6/17 8:28 p.m.

Dude...  3400 engines are about 200$ each.

I won't be racing my chumpcar this next year....  I was thinking I may do a 200 shot on it and see what it does in the 1/4.....

 

Cheap engines are fun to see what they can take before blowing up....

 

A 3500 is apparently a better starting point, but you will need to adapt a crank trigger to it if using the 3400 electronics.

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
11/6/17 8:34 p.m.

In reply to sleepyhead :

Yes, nitrous will spool a turbo faster.

The nitrous button by itself, has very little lag.

dropstep
dropstep SuperDork
11/6/17 8:51 p.m.

Small nitrous shots being used too spool turbos is pretty popular in drag racing. Think it started with the DSM crowd, or they atleast perfected it.

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
11/6/17 8:53 p.m.

If you're running boost + either e85 or methanol, i would skip the nitrous. If you're running nitrous, i would skip the boost and methanol and keep the e85. 

Nitrous will be far, far simpler. I think you could spray a 3400 up well past 300chp. Hook that up in a light car and its high 11s. 

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
11/6/17 8:59 p.m.
sleepyhead said:
Dusterbd13 said:

Nitrous sprayed against the intercooler?

you could probably setup a water sprayer on the intercooler for cheaper may not be as effective...
 

 

Water spraying on track is illegal but works great for dyno work, especially when the intercooler is completely undersized....

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 MegaDork
11/6/17 9:03 p.m.

Part of me really wants to play with turbo, as i never have before. 

The other part says to use one of the two nitrous kits i have that i have less than 50 in the pair. 

The last part of me wants to do both

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