Guess I don't understand why you think the gauge is wrong, when just cruising, it reads low and when hammering it on the track, it then gets hot or when stuck in traffic.
I'm running a Autometer manual gauge that is in the return line from the thermostat.
Oil is for sure going to the cooler, I had a loose hose clamp when I first set it up. It also sends a small amount of oil to the cooler even when the thermostat is closed so you don't get air pockets.
GPz11 said:Guess I don't understand why you think the gauge is wrong, when just cruising, it reads low and when hammering it on the track, it then gets hot or when stuck in traffic.
I'm running a Autometer manual gauge that is in the return line from the thermostat.
Oil is for sure going to the cooler, I had a loose hose clamp when I first set it up. It also sends a small amount of oil to the cooler even when the thermostat is closed so you don't get air pockets.
Oil temp being BELOW regular coolant temps is irregular, traditionally it's warmer than that (Hot temps in the 230-240 F range especially on track are normal from what I've come to understand). If it's going through the cooler, then assuming your bypass is working correctly, it's at least 180 degrees F. If your gauge says 140, that's obviously not right....
It's 140 after going thru the cooler, I'm not reading the oil temp going into the cooler, I'm reading it after the cooler.
Also when I'm just cruising around, the RPM's are generally only about 1500 rpm so not like I'm hot rodding it around.
In reply to GPz11 :
The thermostat is there to keep the oil temp up to 180. Especially on the turbo car oil colder than that doesn't go where it needs to. Check it carefully with an IR thermometer before and after the thermostat and cooler. I have seen sticky new oil thermostats and lots of inaccurate gauges (all brands) in a 1/2 century of motor sports service.
GPz11 said:It's 140 after going thru the cooler, I'm not reading the oil temp going into the cooler, I'm reading it after the cooler.
Also when I'm just cruising around, the RPM's are generally only about 1500 rpm so not like I'm hot rodding it around.
Ahhh, I understand now.
It's neat to know what the oil temp is coming out of the cooler, but that location doesn't really tell you much. If your cooler gets it down to 140-180*F, but the input to the cooler is 280, then you still have a problem (not that this would happen, just hypothesizing). You also effectively don't have access to the oil temp data until it reaches 180*F and trips the thermostat.
Just like coolant, in my mind the best way is to measure the oil temp near one of the hotter sources, most folks put them in whatever adapter they are using for the block side, before it goes into the cooler, or in the sump itself. That way you get a read on when and how the engine comes up to temp. To each their own I suppose, I don't even have an oil temp sensor right now :-P (though I'm impatiently waiting on other things before I put one in).
Also, I no longer have a Lima in the car, I have a Windsor.
GPz11 said:Also, I no longer have a Lima in the car, I have a Windsor.
Doesn't particularly matter, the concepts apply to any car and motor. :-)
What I was trying to say in that statement but missed badly, was that I don’t have the added heat of a turbo.
Also when researching where to place the oil temp probe, most said to put directly into the oil pan. Well, I didn’t feel like pulling my pan to weld in a boss, so I put the probe in the return line as it was closest to the pan.
GPz11 said:What I was trying to say in that statement but missed badly, was that I don’t have the added heat of a turbo.
Also when researching where to place the oil temp probe, most said to put directly into the oil pan. Well, I didn’t feel like pulling my pan to weld in a boss, so I put the probe in the return line as it was closest to the pan.
Fair enough.
Skipping a lot of history, we now arrive at tuning problems for my XR.
The car ran great (or so I thought) on tha LA3/Big VAM setup, until I installed a wideband and learned how lean it had been running (eek!)...
I'm currently in the process of installing a Stinger Performance "PIMP" (MS2-based PnP standalone ECU) in the car. It should have been fairly simple, but I've been running into a lot of issues. It seems to be centered around a lack of fueling at idle, but at this point the entire fuel system has been touched. The last piece of which was the fuel pressure regulator, which I installed a brand new one on the car yesterday, which affected no change at all to the fueling needs of the car at idle. The crazy part is the regulator that came off was completely knackered.. I don't get how that wouldn't help things...
I know I need to verify the fuel pressure, but I've been having trouble with the ones from the parts stores, and not been able to get any readings at all. I'm going to try again and see whats what, but dang if it's not frustrating.
In reply to TXratti :
I have had this fuel pressure tester from Amazon for over three years now and it's still going strong.
Still running a stock fuel pump? How about the fuel filter? Does the fueling at idle improve if you remove the vacuum line from the regulator?
Interesting that your car runs lean at idle, mine (also LA3) runs really rich. The service control worker at NEFR said "this thing smells like a freaking boat!"
I just got this one off Amazon, Marshall Instruments LS00100 Liquid Filled Fuel Pressure Gauge Silver.
Here's the adapter for the rail. https://lmr.com/item/LRS-3280/Mechanical-Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Adaptor
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:In reply to TXratti :
I have had this fuel pressure tester from Amazon for over three years now and it's still going strong.
Still running a stock fuel pump? How about the fuel filter? Does the fueling at idle improve if you remove the vacuum line from the regulator?
I'll check out that gauge.
Not stock pump, Walbro 255 now, along with the relay mod and 10 ga wire direct from the battery, and a 3G alternator. Fuel filter is also new, and dang if even the body hard lines are less than a year old, brand new repop lines.. FPR was literally the last part of the system that hadn't been replaced, heck I even had to replace the lines between the tank and the fuel filter (old stock hi-pressure pumploaction) when I welded through them about two years ago... that's a story for a different time.
Does not improve when I remove the vac line as far as I know.. (I have to go look at a log, couldn't see the AFR gauge or the laptop screen when I was unplugging it).
In reply to TXratti :
That all sounds like it should be fine, and you've probably checked all the dumb stuff already- is there a section of the return line you could pinch to verify that the pump is capable of providing more pressure? I've had an alarming number of Walbro 255 and 255 clones fail so I'd look there first, and also make sure the filter sock in the tank is clean.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:In reply to TXratti :
That all sounds like it should be fine, and you've probably checked all the dumb stuff already- is there a section of the return line you could pinch to verify that the pump is capable of providing more pressure? I've had an alarming number of Walbro 255 and 255 clones fail so I'd look there first, and also make sure the filter sock in the tank is clean.
The pump is only about a month old, and when I had the hanger out of the tank, it was surprisingly clean inside, no rust and the stock screen barely had any debris on it. Purchased from MC2 Racing, so I'm confident it's a real pump.
Can probably find a place to pinch off the return line and see what that does.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:In reply to TXratti :
That all sounds like it should be fine, and you've probably checked all the dumb stuff already- is there a section of the return line you could pinch to verify that the pump is capable of providing more pressure? I've had an alarming number of Walbro 255 and 255 clones fail so I'd look there first, and also make sure the filter sock in the tank is clean.
Never underestimate my ability to miss things which are simple! When I installed the Deka 80s (which are high Z injectors), I totally forgot to add the jumpers in the PIMP for High Z (stock injectors are low Z).
In reply to TXratti :
Well, simple but dumb things that can really mess with fuel delivery- stuff stuck in the line, a loose hose clamp inside the tank, a bad connection to an injector, or an intermittent fuel pump or injector circuit can all mess with you. The loose clamp inside the tank can be especially sneaky.
In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :
Yep! Had that happen at a rally.. Pump had failed at the previous rally, and a new one was installed. Mid-way through the first day, it acted the same way, and when we investigated, the pump had slipped off of the hanger and fell off in the tank. Womp womp. Rally Idaho 2017
Well, issues persist...
Tried to check the fuel pressure with the rental kit again, and it initially showed pressure, but wouldn't seal to the rail, and all it read was 25 psi.. and it ran ROUGH, different than it ever has, so I think it's a symptom of the leaking at the connection. So off to a different parts store to try again today...
I pulled the plugs and they were black! For a car telling me that its running lean, it's sure been running rich a lot, There was a hint of white on them, but the car hadn't been running for very long... could be the wideband is displaying incorrectly this whole time?
Speaking with the tuner, we were going over things that could be issues, such as lines reversed, crushed or kinked hard lines, blocked filter, etc. I'll be opening the system and seeing visually what the fuel flow looks like.
Also, even at 25 psi of fuel pressure, taking the vacuum line on and off the regulator changed NOTHING. So it seems like my brand new FPR may be a dud! ugh. And this thing makes some SERIOUS vacuum, 21 inHg at idle.
Then the tuner asked about how I had wired the pump, and whether I had removed the resistor, or "resistance wire" in the ground for the in tank pump... uhhh no? I did a quick splice to ground, but looking at the wiring diagram, it seems it may be further down. I'll try to pull the grommet and see if I can find it. Otherwise I'm going to lower the tank down a bit and see. This could be the problem.
Here's a photo of the wiring for the extra relay to the pump. Green is power (because the store didnt have red) and black is ground. Since this photo, I spliced the larger of the fat wires coming out of the pump to the same ground as the relay, but it needs to be spliced closer to the pump to remove the resistor.
Widebands can also read lean when misfires are letting unburnt fuel come through- it's measuring the products of combustion, so if there's no combustion happening it will read lean regardless of the amount of fuel being dumped. I think.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:Widebands can also read lean when misfires are letting unburnt fuel come through- it's measuring the products of combustion, so if there's no combustion happening it will read lean regardless of the amount of fuel being dumped. I think.
This is true (and was happening before), but this thing runs smoooooth at idle, rock solid.
In this thread is a picture of the ground wire to be replaced. Down near the bottom of the page.
GPz11 said:In this thread is a picture of the ground wire to be replaced. Down near the bottom of the page.
Thank you! Merkur Encyclopedia described it but it wasn't definitive. EVTM indicates its between the splice into the harness and the pump itself.
Edit: Oh, is it up between the taillights? If I spliced into the ground wire at the grommet, I may have already cut it out....
It is back near the tail lights.
So, I cut the resistance wire (up between the tail lights) and wrapped it back up.
Getting fuel pressure readings has been an issue. I've had trouble with the parts store rentals and have tried multiple and multiple stores to no success, so yesterday I came home with an armful of them. I exchanged the one at O'rielly for the other one that they had, got one from Autozone, and purchased one that was not a loaner from Advance auto (they're all conveniently right next to each other).
The alternate from O'Reilly was broken (bleed valve completely torn out of it), so I moved on to the Autozone kit. For all of this, I had removed the core from the schrader on the rail. As I opened the Autozone kit, I realized I was the last one to use it (to no avail) and my heart sank. I did remember that previously I had not removed the core, so I went to try to use it anyway and it worked!
With the Key on, before start it was 39 psi. At idle, with the vacuum line attached it was 33 psi, and -as shown below- at idle with the vacuum line pulled of, a full 41 psi! So at least now we've verified that we've got fuel pressure (and that the FPR works).
Despite this, the fueling needs at idle are still crazy high (VE value of 86), and I had been brainstorming why that could be. Expecially when the plugs are black black with soot. To me, that can only mean false readings from the Wideband. There has been a known exhaust leak in my downpipe, but I didn't think it was *that* big. I was wrong.
Seet all the soot on the upper part of the DP? yep. lots o leaks. To test the effect, I moved the wideband from it's location next to the transmission, up to the "Stock" location in the elbow off the turbo - thankfully the supplied wire from AEM is incredibly long and reaches easily from the interior of the car.
The effect was almost staggering. On the same settings, it was now displaying 12.5 AFR at idle! Similar to the results that Hot Rod had in a dyno test: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/exhaust-leak-affects-widebando2-sensor-readings/amp/
I adjusted the table, and was able to get it down to ~68 VE in the idle area. While higher than normal, it is something the tuner and I can work with.
Next steps are:
-Fix exhaust leak (PERMANENTLY)
-Relocate Wideband to original location
-Verify/ improve engine grounds
-Light (no boost) test drive after fixes complete
Thoughts on the best way to fix the exhaust? It's a legacy of the previous owner's work with my modifications to fit the cossie exhaust housing. Easy way is to just weld it together, but then the ENTIRE exhaust would be one piece, and it's already a pain in the butt with 85% of it as a single piece.
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