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Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 1:31 p.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

It's like you've been reading my dream journals...don't mind the bit about Mrs. Torkelson, pixie sticks and Care Bears, I was working through some issues there.

An aluminum chassis is thrilling to contemplate, and more ambitious than I actually want to invest my time in. The novelty alone is spirit lifting just to contemplate. However, there are multiple reasons for my reticence, which I can hash out in later posts.

But I like where your head is at!

Steel might be low-tech, old-hat, boring and dull...but that's one of the many reasons why I love it. It's a known quantity for me. I LITERALLY know it's strengths and weaknesses. If steel were invented today (imagine a world where aluminum was developed first) it would be considered a miracle material. It has a lot going for it.

Hope that doesn't discourage you from this thread...

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
3/5/19 1:36 p.m.

The idea with the Fiero was that a lot of the basics are handled; you have an HVAC system, windows, wipers, etc etc "boring" stuff that takes time to sort out and do to make the car complete.  It seems to generally fit the bill described in the first posts of the thread.  There's still a lot to do but I think it's more of the stuff that the OP would consider good challenges; sorting the suspension, brakes, hubs, powerplant etc etc.  And Lancia Stratos-like flares done right on a late Fiero, with a warmed LS for soundtrack?  Come on.  Why not shave a year or two off of the timeline by starting with something already started?

 

To each his own of course, and I'm not capable of building much of anything, so take this all with a grain of salt.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 1:38 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Time is a resource I have. I'm in working-retired mode. I'm not wealthy, but I'm comfortable. My business is self-supporting enough that I can delegate tasks and responsibilities if/when I need to meet a self-imposed deadline. But honestly, I don't see myself setting one...this isn't a Discovery channel build. I'm sure it will progress and wane, like the ebbing of the tides, but progress will continue.

You're pretty acute on the time table for a build of this ambition. I've actually estimated closer to 5000 hours.

I AM a professional fabricator and machinist, however I definitely do not build cars from scratch all the time, this will pop my scratch-build cherry. Hope it doesn't hurt.

Think of this as therapy/hobby/escape all wrapped up in a tangible product without a messy divorce or rehab.

GoLucky
GoLucky Reader
3/5/19 1:43 p.m.

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

 Just a reminder that logic doesn’t always have a place in emotional decision making. 

As I am sure you are well aware, you can use any part or design for any reason you choose. Ultimately this is your car, built for emotional reasons and use. Color, sound, and sentiment can have as much or little value as you would care to assign. I respect what you are undertaking and look forward to seeing your progress. I hope that the result is exactly what you want. 

 

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 1:52 p.m.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

I actually contemplated this when I was on the hunt for a project. What led me in the direction of scratch build vs. modding an existing platform was inherited legacy deficiencies. Yes they can be corrected, worked around, re-imagined...but why not start from a blank slate and avoid all the teeth gnashing and hair pulling?

To let you know just how much your idea has merit...I was fully prepared to go down the Pro-Touring route with a Fiero, complete with faux history and the whole nine yards.

In my head the plan was basically a GM version of the Lancia 037.

The base for that was the Lancia Beta Monte Carlo center tub, tube subframes front and rear.

I was thinking L67 Series II (supercharged, natch) paired with a F23 transmission, Solstice suspension at all 4 corners, IMSA flares, etc.

By the time I had researched parts, prices, mods necessary, etc...I came to the conclusion that a scratch build wouldn't be much more work or more cost. Plus nobody could call it a kit car. Not that I have anything against kit cars. But the Fiero is indelibly linked to kit cars forever.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 2:00 p.m.

In reply to GoLucky :

You are so on the nose, it's not funny. I think I WANT the Coyote more for the "high-tech" cred, aural soundtrack and 'Murican Ferrari aspect than anything else.

I realize that an LS is the better all-rounder for my purposes...and I have a few tricks up my sleeve for exhaust that I think will satisfy my itch. The torque curve is incredible on these things stock, some cam and head tweaks REALLY wake them up.

And again, this is a LONG TERM project. I'm keeping it for life. Who knows...I might just have several "powerpacks" that I can store and swap depending on my mood or use.

Thanks for the support and participation!!!

 

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 2:38 p.m.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

You're not wrong, in the least. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I have a particular fondness for Fieros, I really do.

But in my decision-making matrix, it doesn't tick enough boxes to make it worthwhile for ME. 

I'd REALLY love to see a build like that though...I've seen the "death Fiero" with the black rattle-can paint and 4G63 that Matt Farah drove on YouTube. One of my favorite builds on the Fiero forums is by a guy called fiero_guru. LS4 with F40 transaxle FTW!

You have inspired me for my next post though...

FIYAPOWA
FIYAPOWA Reader
3/5/19 3:00 p.m.

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

In terms of sound and high-tech cred, a flat-plane Voodoo motor will be all that and a bag of chips.  I'd suggest a Kenne Bell supercharger on top of it for boost.  Assuming you go Ford powerplant, what does that dictate in terms of transaxle, suspension, driveline, etc?

skylarhagler
skylarhagler New Reader
3/5/19 3:32 p.m.

Watching this one for sure. The 037 is basically my favorite car ever built. Looking forward to what seems like your take on it with some good old american V8 power.

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
3/5/19 3:33 p.m.

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

 

This HAS been brewin' & stewin' for some time...over a decade now. ...

I'm an inveterate (or is that degenerate...I always get confused) planner. This will go through several renditions in CAD before any metal is cut.

I tend to jump out of airplanes as a way of focusing on parachute design.

 

Pete

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 3:33 p.m.

BACKSTORY:

Grab the popcorn and a Snuggie, I'll try to make this interesting as it may get a little long-winded.

It all started when I was violently shoved into this world, blindingly bright and the air cold on my skin, covered in blood and viscera, screaming...wait, that's too far back.

Ok, so I'm an 80's child. Born at the tail-end of the 70's. I grew up with Knight Rider and the Hoff, General Lee and the Duke boys, the A-Team van and B.A. Baracus. I actually remember watching Group B on TV. My fascination for automobiles is unique in my family, there are no other gearheads. I just have an appreciation for machinery.

Remember how the 80's ushered in big hair, glam-rock and Alf? I do, vaguely. What I REALLY remember are box flares, TURBO badges and lettering packages plastered down the rocker panel, big wings and the rise of supercars. Specifically the Countach, followed by the 288 GTO, the 959 nipping at it's heels, then BLAMMO...the F40, Consulier (nee Mosler) Intruder, Raptor and later the MT900, XJR15, XJ220, F1...supercars were here to stay!

Now, I realize that I kinda lumped the 80s and 90s together...but that period was a blur for me. And I'm guessing for many of you as well. But it was a period of influence and tech achievement that made 707hp (ostensibly) family cars with 100,000 mile warranties a relatively common occurrence today.

I was in a literal funk (and might have actually cried) when the Ferrari 430 was the last manual-option car from Ferrari's mid engine line. That experience I craved hadn't just passed me by, it was rapidly accelerating away from me as I watched those cars appreciate at a stratospheric pace. Technically, I could afford an F430 Scuderia if I cashed out my 401k and resigned myself to eating cat food in my dotage, but practically I would never actually do that.

I became enamored with first the Ultima GTR, then the Noble M12/M400, then the Mosler MT900 and the Galmer Arbitrage. But I dithered. I was lusting after cars almost as expensive as the F430, without the pedigree or the support. There had to be an in-between option!

The next best thing? An FFR GTM! Yeah, a kit car, but it uses Vette parts and even Car and Driver said it was a helluva performance bargain. Did my due diligence, researched what I could online, visited the factory and placed my deposit.

This was right before the Great Recession. The world was running at a fervent pace, EVERYBODY was buying houses, oil and gas was BOOMING. I was walking in high cotton.

So my GTM arrived and I enthusiastically dived in. This was before the E-ROD was a tried and true package. Before the Mendeola SDR5 was a real product. (I was one of the first to place a deposit with Mendeola when they debuted this box in 2005-2006 at SEMA). Giving up on the oft-promised, oft-delayed Mendeola, I forged ahead. I purchased a high-mileage wrecked 1997 LS1 Corvette and a G50 from a 964. THE TRANSAXLE COST ALMOST HALF OF WHAT THE KIT COST! Adaptor plate, clutch, inversion mods, higher ratio 5th OD, the works.

I quickly became frustrated...not with the assembling part. With the worthless build manual. With the lack of quality and misshapen body. With the lackluster suspension mounting geometry. With the jungle gym of tubing and the ridiculous center backbone that every wire, tube, hose and cable was stuffed inside, that stole so much precious interior space. With the hack-mods that FFR expected their customers to perform to the factory Vette components. With the E36 M3-tastical shift rod linkage designed by Rube Goldberg's nihilist cousin.

I resolved to fix this mess! I steeled myself for a complete redesign of the chassis, fully ready to cut, glass and reshape the body to something worthy of supercar-dom. Then reality set in. I had paid $20,000 for a kit that was in poor fettle, disappointing asymmetry in the body, bodged suspension geometry, cramped quarters, mis-matched gear ratios and low-rent interior. I was disappointed...mostly with myself, definitely with FFR. I resigned myself to building what I had, realizing I would never truly be happy with the end result due to excessive compromises.

But then the Carpocalypse happened. Gas went from $4.50/gallon to $3.75 then $2.50 then $1.95 seemingly overnight. My 401k took a thrashing. My GM, Ford and Chrysler stock either dived or evaporated. Unlimited overtime was over. Then non-essential personnel were furloughed, then layed-off. Benefits and wages were cut. Finally, I was released into the wild with several hundred other oil patch guys, with only my savings to tide me over til I found work elsewhere. Fortunately I knew about and was prepared for the boom-bust cycle of the oil patch. I was pretty frugal aside from my purchase of the GTM. I drove a Corolla! (It was the cool one though, 2zz with 6 speed manual) I weathered the storm okay and found work with a company building compressor stations for the gas fields.

I had stopped working on the GTM other than what I already had parts for, spending no money on new parts. I built it as bare-bones as feasible, reusing, adapting and modifying what I had on-hand. Stock Vette wheels, stock kit interior, gel coat, the whole shebang. Drove it a couple thousand miles, never confident with the oft-slipping rear suspension kludge FFR had designed it with. Fortunately, I found a sucker (er, I mean buyer) and was able to unload it for minimal loss.

That's when I started formulating a plan for a build that would incorporate all my fixes for my bitches about the GTM. I looked at and REALLY fought myself to purchase an RCR SL-C. That aluminum chassis! That rocker arm billet suspension! That GTP bodywork! The body was ACTUALLY symmetrical! After a test ride in a car, I realized that even with some personal touches, it wasn't really for me. Not knocking the product, it just wasn't my style.

So what to do? I started formulating a plan. Had a few false starts along the way. What follows next will be the evolution of my daydreams, desires and ultimately, practicality.

Hope I haven't bored you to tears yet. Hang in there, it gets better!

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
3/5/19 3:50 p.m.

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

I’ll be following your build with interest. Am I correct in that you intend to build something primarily for the street and not  primarily the race track?  

The Transaxle will probably define a lot. There are really only 3 semi- affordable transaxles capable of dealing with the sort of power you seem to be heading for. 

The Big Audi, Big Porsche,  and the new midengined Corvette.   Oh yes there are a few others like Ferrari etc. but those carry so much exclusiveness that they really do seem to not fit well into your goals.  

Yes, you could cast your own housing and adapt another gearset but I’m not sure you would gain a lot and there is a really massive amount of engineering involved.  

I’ll go along with the idea of instead of using tube frame. Make a Monique chassis.  Or at least a semi Monique chassis. Less weight and greater strength, plus it’s really not that much more difficult than a tube frame.  Yes it will require access to a big sheet metal brake. However, most major cities have plenty of those. 

Have you figured out what you intend to do about bodywork?   If you have a good eye you could use an English Wheel to make one out of Aluminum.  Normally that’s done on a wooden buck but I’ve also seen it done on a foam, fiberglass/ bondo buck for a quick and easy one off 

 Fiberglas/ carbon Fiber  is also a choice.  Same foam, fiberglass/ bondo creation as a master for the mold. For street use though you’ll want to use a glass windshield.  Plexiglass just  scratches too easy for regular street use.  

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 3:52 p.m.

In reply to FIYAPOWA :

In a perfect world, with limitless resources of time and money...I'd buy an RCR GT-R (based on the Robertson Racing Ford GT that raced at LeMans) slap a 2020 Shelby GT500 motor in the chassis and back it with a Ricardo and all the OEM and aftermarket GT goodies I could lay my hands on. Easily a $200,000+ build.

But I ain't well-heeled, nor particularly handsome and charming, so I'm making due with my homemade contraption. But, I'm planning some trickness to go with it's humble origins.

HYPOTHETICAL:

If I were to use the Coyote V8, I would build my own version of the 5.2XS ALUMINATOR, using the 5.2 block, 5.2 heads FRPP package for the 90* crank, a Borla 8 stack manifold and 180* headers ala GT40.

For a transaxle, the manual options are Porsche Cayman S, Porsche 996 or 997, Audi R8, Albins AGB-10 6 speed, sequential options are Elite TXL300 6S, Mendeola S5R or S5, Albins AGB-10 sequential, Albins ST-6. (In ascending order from least expensive to most expensive).

For suspension I'd use Vette stuff, DSS axle package, Vette brakes, and Dobbertin subframe modules.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 3:53 p.m.

In reply to skylarhagler :

I wish I could like your comment more! 037 fo' LIFE!

That IS basically what I'm aiming for, overall aesthetics and design-wise...longitudinal V8, 5 speed manual, etc.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 3:55 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

Nothing wrong with that approach, as long as you brought oxygen and all the components with you to 25,000 ft. before you jump! 

Your comment made me chuckle...as a former paratrooper the biggest thrill is waiting for your chute to pop...the biggest terror is when it doesn't!

BrianC72gt
BrianC72gt GRM+ Memberand New Reader
3/5/19 4:14 p.m.

You might want to take a look at this site:  http://midlana.com/

Kurt Bilinski designed and built two cars now from scratch, the Midlana and , his first, the Kimini.  I believe the Kimini was featured on the cover of GRM a few years ago. Kimini is a tube frame Mini inspired composite bodied beast..

I suspect his Book and blog are well worth the read, even if you don't intend to build his design.

I went down the rabbit hole on his FAQ:  http://midlana.com/faq/    and his comments on a steel v. aluminum frame  are worth consideration as well.  Aluminum is sexy, but...metal fatigue. 

Looking forward to your project.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 4:17 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Get out of my head! (seriously...it's crowded in here...like a mosh pit at a Korn concert)

Yes, a street car with race car aspirations, but not actual intentions. I've dubbed it with the moniker Race-Rod.

The gearbox I've decided on for an LS build is the Weddle HV-25. 

https://weddleindustries.com/products/1000165/1003796

Looking at the specs, options and having seen it in the flesh, doing the deed at Pike's Peak, I'm sold.

After the GTM, I'm over conversions of existing OEM boxes. Too much hassle and expense for a make-fit option that is still geared poorly for the LS.

Flappy-paddle goodness FEELS amazing...in my head. Trying to do the electrical integration of a C8 Tremec DCT-700 (or whatever it'll be called when it's released), is a much bigger elephant than I'm willing to chew on.

 

Onto the chassis...Ermahgerd how I LUSTED after the Consulier Intruder when I was in high school, followed by the Mosler MT900 when I was in the Army.

Composite monocoque chassis...Intruder/Raptor was literally built like a boat, foam-core, fiberglass, kevlar, carbon reinforcement, vinylester resin...MT900 used Teklam carbon skinned aluminum honeycomb panels routed into shape, bonded with epoxy and carbon panels for the rockers, roof spyder and tub. (In fact, I have two samples of the Teklam panels that they sent me when I went  down the rabbit hole on my deep-dive towards automotive nirvana).

Alas, I realize when I'm out of my element or chasing phantoms. I'm not Steve Saleen or Warren Mosler or even Lee Noble. I'm never going to own a car manufacturing business. I'm no longer chasing the illusory rabbit for a nee-plus-ultra Supercar(!). I'm totally happy with an old-tech steel space-frame/semi-monocoque chassis. I don't have to learn any new skills to insure it's built strong (potentially enough to save my life if I get stupid) and I already have all the equipment I need to build it.

Sorry to disappoint. The last 10 years have been my R&D regarding what I want the car to be. You have no idea the depths of madness I've immersed myself in before finding sanity and serenity with my old-school design.

I am however intrigued by a folded steel monocoque chassis with integrated roll cage and subframes. That IS on the table for the final design!

Body will most likely be aluminum roof skin, door skins, trunk and hood skins, and fenders. Fiberglass bumpers and airdams.

I've already chosen and sourced glass that is affordable and available, as well as having aftermarket options for coated Lexan.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 4:21 p.m.

In reply to BrianC72gt :

We're on the same wavelength. I've been devouring stuff like Kurt's Kimini and Midlana for years.

Thanks for popping in!

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
3/5/19 4:41 p.m.

If we had a 'Best First Posts Hall of Fame' around here, I would nominate you. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
3/5/19 4:55 p.m.

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

If you like the 4 valve Ford V8 and want the same power in another Ford V8 4 valve that’s lighter and a lot more compact  look at the Jaguar. That was designed under Ford when Ford owned Jaguar.  It has 550 horsepower in stock supercharged form and just a  pulley change away from 612 horsepower.  

If you’d like to see over 700 horsepower still in stock form add a sensor to detect alcohol and use E85.  Instead of paying over $3.00 a gallon it’s selling under $2.00 a gallon. 85% of it is alcohol which has 114 octane plus a dramatic cooling effect. 

Just in case you haven’t been following ethanol alcohol doesn’t have any of the nasty properties that Methanol alcohol does.  

Ethanol  isn’t corrosive 

methanol is very corrosive. 

Ethanol is drinkable  it’s what is in beer, wine, and booze.  

Methanol will make you blind and then kill you if you drink it. 

Indy cars and NASCAR use Ethanol for more power!!! 

 

 

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 5:16 p.m.

In reply to T.J. :

Wow, I mean, Thank You!

I'm trying to read everyone's comments and reply to them...I wasn't anticipating this kind of response to my thread until I started getting some build pictures up. I really appreciate everyone reading my ramblings and sharing their thoughts and ideas.

BrianC72gt
BrianC72gt GRM+ Memberand New Reader
3/5/19 5:40 p.m.

Then watch everything this guy has on youtube for aluminum panel forming:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7B7lCDq7cY   Runge Cars

He's a hipster Ron Covell, very hands, on self-taught.  Both annoyingly talented.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 5:42 p.m.

SCRATCH BUILD attempt #1:

Having owned a V8 68 Corvair and rebuilding/refreshing the Crown swap that it came with, I was intrigued by the idea of using GM parts to build a mid engine car. Here's what the Mid-Engineering Corvair swap drivetrain looks like:

 

That was ORIGINALLY the premise behind the GTM. Use the Corvette engine and transaxle as a one-car donor for a GT40 replica (their successful formula for their Cobra kit). Unfortunately between setting an arbitrary wheelbase number for their chassis, an unfortunate decision to start the project as a GT40-esque replica during Shelby's litigious reign, and an extremely front-engine biased coupe design, the Vette transaxle wouldn't work, thus they chose the Porsche G50 as their transaxle.

Here's a few examples of the Vette box in mid engine form:

 This is what the drivetrain in the Locus Plethore looks like (now HTT Plethore, I believe).

This is from a Corvair build using the C5 4L60 for mid engine.

This is the RCR LM-P.

As you can see this makes for a long drivetrain package.

The solution? Either live with the added wheelbase, or come up with work arounds:

A company called Hot Rod Restos built these output relocation kits using chains from a NV272 out of HD diesel pickups.


Next post, more transaxle stuff!

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 6:09 p.m.

Referring to a post by @frenchyd regarding a DIY transaxle:

This is how Ferrari did it on the F40

It technically IS possible to do this with the Vette box:

First you need a gear set with removable layshaft gears, like this

Then you need the C5/C6 ring and pinion, like this:

 

Then you need to create a "quick-change" type input box like this behind the bellhousing:

And a quick-change style layshaft extender like this (goes from layshaft gear on a shaft like this, under the C5 diff...just like a quick change diff):

that shaft runs under the diff and connects to the layshaft on your gearbox, which enables you to run an normal gearbox as a transaxle.

That's A LOT of custom work, custom housings (normal bellhousing, custom "quick change" housing for input gear, layshaft gear, custom "quick-change" style housing for diff and transfer shaft, bolted to a normal gearbox turned 180*, quick-change style shaft connects to gearbox layshaft with a custom coupler, output shaft of gearbox mates with internal splines on C5/C6 ring and pinion) for a one-off.

It would be doable if enough volume could be gathered in a group buy for a company to cut all the gears and shafts you needed, plus castings. THAT'S WHY IT HASN'T BEEN DONE. Too niche for repurposed parts, not many people with the skill or the will to do it themselves.

Just in case this is clear as mud, here's a lo-fi ASCII drawing to make it more clear:
 

)-/ _-` `-_{----//-//-//

)-\-----------\\-\\-\\

The only OTS transmission that I'm aware of that offers splined gears on shafts that you can disassemble yourself is the Richmond overdrive 5 and ROD-6. There was a guy in TX that was supposed to be offering a transaxle based on it, but I'm not sure it's ever been installed in a car. https://griffingearboxes.com/

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman New Reader
3/5/19 6:27 p.m.

It IS possible, if you can handle a longer wheelbase car, to build something that would look a LOT like a Saleen S7 using the Vette T56/T6060 transaxle.

S7 wheelbase: 106.2"

C5 wheelbase: 104.5"

C6 wheelbase: 105.7"

C7 wheelbase: 106.7"

Here's a proof of concept that it can be done using stock parts on a 104.5" wheelbase:

The T56 is 3.5" longer than the 4L60 used here, the T6060 is 1.25" longer than the T56, and the T6070 is 1.75" longer than the T6060.

Body styling for a Saleen S7 is up to you!

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