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myusdmcavalier
myusdmcavalier New Reader
10/23/23 1:34 p.m.

I remember reading about some dude who made a mk4 golf just like this, only with a BMW 5 series motor. Very interesting build.

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/23/23 1:42 p.m.
MiniDave said:

I know your mounts look pretty beefy, but if possible I would put something similar on top and bolt thru. You don't want your steering rack coming loose from hitting a low curb or speed bump.

 Defiinitely, "if" these mounts ever see the road they would be fully welded out and through bolted with plate on the other side....these were just quick/dirty to get the rack located to build the steering linkages in hopes of getting the car to my buddies shop to put it on the alignment rack to check and see if I will be able to get a reasonable alignment.

I've honestly been thinking that sooner than later I am going to need to order my tubing bender and may build a tubular sub frame to better mount/product the rack and if needed clean up any control arm geometry concerns 

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/23/23 1:44 p.m.
myusdmcavalier said:

I remember reading about some dude who made a mk4 golf just like this, only with a BMW 5 series motor. Very interesting build.

you are thinking of @miketheday, guy that works for ECS....

That was an mk3, but definietly a cool build as well

Shavarsh
Shavarsh HalfDork
10/23/23 1:45 p.m.

a bashbar/skid plate could probably take care of that concern without opening up a rabbit hole. 

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/23/23 3:08 p.m.
Shavarsh said:

a bashbar/skid plate could probably take care of that concern without opening up a rabbit hole. 

for sure, will see how things evolve

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/23/23 7:09 p.m.

Racks measured, crude drawing made of what the spacers will look like, sent those to a good friend that owns a fab shop...hopefully get those going sooner than later

 

OEM e9x rack, 27.75" (shockingly exact)

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

z4 manual rack, 22.625" (again, shockingly exact)

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Notes on what I think my spacers need to be...optimism level is rising that this will allow the OEM geometry to be maintained (high school drafting flashback for fun :) )

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

 

SpeedAddict502
SpeedAddict502 New Reader
10/23/23 8:18 p.m.

What is the width of the stock MK4 GTI rack?

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/24/23 10:29 a.m.
SpeedAddict502 said:

What is the width of the stock MK4 GTI rack?

Not sure to be honest, I'd have to dig one out of storage to measure it, why do you ask?

 

The track with of the e90 & mk4 are very similar, one of the reasons I chose this front suspension....however, the mk4 is rear steer from the factory, v1.0 of engine placement made the rack not useable due to how it mounts on the subframe and the subframe had to be hacked up to a pretty extreme length....here is what it looked like with a much further forward

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

SpeedAddict502
SpeedAddict502 New Reader
10/24/23 12:45 p.m.

No big deal, just curiosity honestly.  Curious how close the E90 and MK4 racks were.  Forgot the rear steer vs front steer though.

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/24/23 1:17 p.m.
SpeedAddict502 said:

No big deal, just curiosity honestly.  Curious how close the E90 and MK4 racks were.  Forgot the rear steer vs front steer though.

Gotcha.....I'd guess they are "pretty close"

I had stubs in the old mk4 hubs, tried to run the OEM rack, but it sits in the middle of the subframe and on top, I also tried to work around that with a front steer rack and flipping the hubs side-to-side, but then I knew I'd have steering geometry issues, so that is what led me down the path of finding a front steering car that had similar track width that I could figure out how to adapt...

I've always kept the thought it my head that all this is simply tacked in, the investment isnt so great at this point, so tubular subframe/front end are still an option...but tbd, dont want to create that much more work yet

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/24/23 2:33 p.m.

If you are running the stock vw suspension, the rack width should be the stock vw rack.  Front or rear steer doesn't matter.  

 

It should be close to the width of the inner suspension pivots of your control arms.

 

Edit...  I would have thought the spacers need to be different lengths on each side since you shifter the rack.

 

Basically, you want the rack inner tie rods to be close to inline with the a arm inner pivots.

Shavarsh
Shavarsh HalfDork
10/24/23 2:48 p.m.

Nice drafting!

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/24/23 2:51 p.m.
wvumtnbkr said:

If you are running the stock vw suspension, the rack width should be the stock vw rack.  Front or rear steer doesn't matter.  

 

It should be close to the width of the inner suspension pivots of your control arms.

 

Edit...  I would have thought the spacers need to be different lengths on each side since you shifter the rack.

 

Basically, you want the rack inner tie rods to be close to inline with the a arm inner pivots.

Front suspension is all BMW

I was able to get the z4 manual rack lined up dead center of the subframe, so equal length spacers are needed to push the inner tie rod pivot out to match the e90 rack width, I like this solution much better, added benefit is loosing the draw from the P/S pump (timing chain driven) as well as no concerns about fluid getting hot on spirited drives

z4 rack positioning

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/24/23 2:54 p.m.
Shavarsh said:

Nice drafting!

Lol thanks!  Brings back high school drafting class memories, totally overkill, but I enjoy that kind of stuff

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
10/30/23 11:08 a.m.

Unfortuantely no car work this weekend....it was a busy one in many other ways, but was happy to wake up this morning, check tracking on my seats and showed they were finally out for delivery....watching things sit in customs for 3 weeks is never fun

 

Now I can finally get serious about figuring out steering shaft layout and if I am going to need to move the seat back to figure out the pedal setup....always wanted red seats in a white car....so step one complete

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
11/2/23 10:31 a.m.

Found some garage time last night, one of my big variables I alwasy knew/worried about with this swap has been steering routing/seat placement 

Last nights small, but never straight forward project was to get the drivers seat in the car so I can start working on the steering....I had these old Recaro side mounts laying around that worked with a set of sliders I needed for another car/project at one point....put some painters tape on the back of them to keep the from scratching up my fresh seats...Seat somewhat bolted in....unfortunately these sliders/rails are different than what the seat brackets were built around, only the distance front/back, not a big deal, not sure these are forever anyway based on how I have to modify the floor to accomidate the tunnel,  then the side mounts are actually different, they drop straight down, where as some other side mounts bow out, so the existing mounting locations in the rear are too wide...so used the outboar hole, which may work well b/c it will give more room for the new tunnel, but will throw off the "centering" of the steering wheel in the dash/cluster...don think that will bother me

Seat bolted in, sits nicely

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Narrower rails meant i need to fab a new slider release bar, luckily I have tubing benders and had soem 3/8" fuel line laying around

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Next step will be to get the seat a little more secure, it only has one bolt and a clamp holding the rear of the slider down, that got me to a stopping point last night...seating position seems decent thus far....here you can see the steering rack input shaft with the U-joint pointed at a decent angle

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

Next step is to start mocking up a steering linkage.  To start I cut off the old steering wheel splined section from the OEM steering rack, then purchased a 3/4"  DD adapter, plan will be to take this to a buddies and machine one end of the adapter down to slide into the OEM spline portion, then will get tacked up....Long term I will likely buy an proper steering column, but this should work for mock up

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

Heim on a bracket I had laying around to get me started, certainly can make/bend whatever i need to when I get sizing figured out

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

More U-joints to help me get down to the rack, I expect the double joint will be needed to keep the angles and  operation smooth

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

 

As a general/open question, any strong opinions/thoughts on only using 3/4" DD as the full steering linkage versus buying a column?  I havent found much info that says there is a benefit to one vs other, seems that the columns simply have bearings on either end and the 3/4" DD runs throught the center, then there is simply a bigger mount that bolts to a crosss bar....maybe I am missing something 

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
11/2/23 11:04 a.m.

If you do that, there is no collapsible part of the column.

 

Also, splines allow for some recording if the wheel is off a bit.  Double d do not.  You would need to make adjustments at the tie rods (which is NOT ideal).

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
11/2/23 11:36 a.m.
wvumtnbkr said:

If you do that, there is no collapsible part of the column.

Yeah, that part is one big reason I do like that solution...

Also, splines allow for some recording if the wheel is off a bit.  Double d do not.  You would need to make adjustments at the tie rods (which is NOT ideal).

 This part will allow me to still have spline adjustment, this is my DD --> OEM spline adapter that I am fabricating, which has very fine adjustment

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

rustomatic
rustomatic HalfDork
11/2/23 5:03 p.m.

Generally, u-joints will collapse, especially when you have as many as you are presenting here.  I've used both double-d and hollow 3/4 tube for steering shafts with no problems (even crashing with one at a decent clip).  Plenty have used both kinds of shaft in the hotrod world (circle track, too) for decades without bad results.

If you have the room and inclination, there are some nice collapsible race car columns from people like Woodward . . .

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
11/3/23 8:07 a.m.
rustomatic said:

Generally, u-joints will collapse, especially when you have as many as you are presenting here.  I've used both double-d and hollow 3/4 tube for steering shafts with no problems (even crashing with one at a decent clip).  Plenty have used both kinds of shaft in the hotrod world (circle track, too) for decades without bad results.

If you have the room and inclination, there are some nice collapsible race car columns from people like Woodward . . .

appreciate the feedback and the insight on the u-joints collapsing, hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense

I have woodward pulled up on a tab currently and have been looking, thinking I will go that route if space allows, cetainly want the car to be safe, for now I think the DD will get me to a point where I can understand the layout and if I have space

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
11/6/23 9:12 a.m.

Found a little garage time yesterday, got my seat a little more securly mounted, then started on some steering shaft mock up

 

Friday night got my adapter parts machined

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

made this little bracket for a steering shaft support, it will bolt into the OEM column mount location

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

Quick fit up

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

Made a second mount for the rear by re-purposing one of the OEM mounts, you can see it hiding in the back

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

Threw the dash in to see how things were looking and give some perspective for where the shaft will route, I think I am doing to need a couple more end links to use as supports and one more double u-joint to make it work, but I am optimistic that it will work

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

 

 

B13Birk
B13Birk GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
11/6/23 10:32 a.m.

This whole thread is just AWESOME! In to follow along. What a cool car this will be when finished. 

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
11/10/23 9:44 a.m.
B13Birk said:

This whole thread is just AWESOME! In to follow along. What a cool car this will be when finished. 

Thank you, appreciate the kind words

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
11/10/23 9:50 a.m.

Been bouncing between house projects and waiting on parts to keep things moving....finally found sometime last night, albeit not was much as I hoped (step-duaghters honda accord loves to haunt me...)...

However, in GRM fashion, I found in my box of "extra brackets"  it seems that various VW/Audi engine lift brackts are a great size and thickness for potential heim joint mounts

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

Another quick/dirty heim mount for the column to bring it closer to the steering wheel so I could move one of the u-joints further up

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

I think I found a combination of u-joints, angles and rod lenght that might get me to a smooth steering operation....I have a straight adapter on the way to see if coming straight off the rack might be better...but hopeful that there is a combination that will work smoothly

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

 

Hoping to get some time in the garage Sunday to keep working on mounting some of the heim supports

 

fouckhest
fouckhest Reader
11/13/23 9:36 a.m.

The straight adapter showed up Saturday, so got out to the garage yesterday to see what I could figure out.  Turns out my theory was relatively accurate, using the straight adapter allowed for a simpler routing that allowed for a one single u-joint and one double u-joint, everything turns very smoothly

New adapter tacked up

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Routing of the steering shaft/linkage, plan will be to find a way to incorporatet that heim support into the fire wall when that gets built

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Untitled by fouckhest, on Flickr

Need to decide what direction I want to go next, the steering wheel needs to come up a little, but that depends upon seating position.  Thinking now that the steering is mostly sorted I might jump back into finalizing the subframe mounts

 

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