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TVR Scott (Forum Supporter)
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/17/20 11:43 a.m.

I'm glad you changed out that tube to the 2".  Looks a lot more solid.

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/18/20 10:52 p.m.

OMG why didn't you guys tell me about gas lenses*? 

That is a game changer for the TIG.  Such stickout and smooth arc/puddle control.  And I just bought a $20 Amazon one.  Dang.  


*Obviously multiple of you told me.  I would say it is required for roll cage fab.  Could not imagine how much easier life would of been.  

Recon1342 Dork
12/18/20 11:00 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

I still don't understand how gas lenses and large cups are not more of a thing. They're practically required for stainless...

12/18/20 11:05 p.m.

In reply to Recon1342 :

The welding supply place I use literally knows nothing about gas lenses. It is weird. Do not even know what they are.

I have found welding supply and paint supply places to be the least useful sources of knowledge ever.

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/19/20 8:25 a.m.

I'm not sure either.  They must be really expensive to make since I can't imagine why they arent just included on a typical HF Start tig ($600+).  Though I bought one that fits my WP17 for $23 and it came with 4 different size gas bodies with multiple pyrex cups..  so I'm not sure.  

My local welding shop is knowledgeable but being a busy shop and me a very very tiny account it's harder for me to get as much attention.  It's understandable and my welding needs are pretty basic (bottle exchanges and occasional consumable purchases).   I would love to buy equipment from them but I have about single Miller MiG welder money into a Eastwood TIG/Plasma and Hobart MIG.  

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/19/20 8:33 a.m.

So yesterday I played with my new TIG gas Lense and then worked on the remaining chassis bungs.  I added bracing to the lower chassis corners (18.25" each), and located the captive nut tabs for the "middle" chassis bungs (4.5 sq-in).  I still need to add support plates to these.

The "Front" plates will go to the inside of the chassis braces.  They will bolt vertically to a plate at the top inside of this joint.  On the front side of this tube I will add andled braces that go forward to the middle tube.  This will be the start of the base plane X braces.  

+2.5 Hrs, +$2.76

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/20/20 11:35 p.m.

Added Reinforcing plates to the low bungs, and fabricated the front bungs.  I thankfully remembered to drill holes into the build table to remove the bolts BEFORE I welded them on.  

Now all 6 bungs are located and I can move toward rear suspension.  I think I'm going to actually finish the middle of the chassis first so I can finish weld the rest of the roll cage before I lock in the rear suspension through the subframe.  

I can see the light at the end of the bulk chassis fab tunnel.  I'm starting to get doubts about finishing this year.  I know it's still 10 months away, and it feels like I'm really flying through this building pretty efficiently in build hours, but I'm chewing up the clock.  Based on the 173 days since I started and I've logged 112 hours that would mean at that rate I have ~200 hours left.  I don't think I'll have a running/driving "finished" car in 200 hours.  We will see I'm going to try my hardest.   Obviously if I increase my average weekly hours worked I can get more done.  

+2.5 Hrs, +$1.38 in Plate

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/22/20 8:42 a.m.


No progress on the Car, but I did get the next video up.  That puts me about 2 video's behind reality.  I will probably try to get a little more caught up video wise over the holiday break.

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/22/20 9:17 a.m.

FYI, I sent you an email thru the forum. 

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/22/20 9:40 a.m.

In reply to nocones :

Well I just learned something. I'd always assumed you wanted as smooth of fishmouth as possible when joining tubing, it never occurred to me that the added thickness by leaving the joint more open would allow better weld penetration. 

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
12/22/20 10:00 a.m.

In reply to nocones :

I'd be building a roof hatch for ingress/egress, but then I'm considerably older than you and couldn't get through the door opening without injury.laugh

Nice build and I look forward to seeing it at the Challenge.

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/22/20 10:02 a.m.

In reply to Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) :

I'm hoping I'm doing that right.  Looking around it looks like a mixed bag on people who do it different ways.  I know this way results in the smallest weld area that gets full penetration.  It's basically chamfering the edge.  It's how I did this one, the MG, and Its also how we did the SAE cars (though they were thinner tube).  So I'm committed to it being "correct".  

Also to be clear the ID still fits very tight.  There is no gap between the tubes.  There is just a \/ shape on the sides instead of //.  As you move around the tube you get to a normal angular fillet _|

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/22/20 10:07 a.m.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

That's the plan for the area in front of the snorkel to be removable with a handle.   It would mostly be used for emergency egress.   I'm still not sure if I'm going to have to change the doors to forward hinges once the car is in NASA/Trackuse life.  I can't find anything that says no reverse hinge doors..  but they aren't common.  I'm hopeful a roof hatch would help make people comfortable with the doors.  I really want to maintain the "suicide" doors.  It's part of what makes this Subaru a Subaru.

rustomatic Reader
12/22/20 2:53 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

The suicide doors are major character points.  So few understand such a thing these days.  Do what you can to keep that.

On a side note, I congratulate you on not using that incorrectly placed comma that Subaru's idiot marketing department committed to years ago. cool

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/25/20 12:51 p.m.

Quite a bit done in the last few days.  With the back chassis bungs complete I decided to work forward to get the middle of the chassis framed.  I did not expect it to go this quickly.  I had a vague Idea of what I wanted to do with the seats, but was excited to get them figured out.  I added 3 diagonals that run down to where the harness mounts are going to be.  I then just ran some 3/4" bars across these a the right depths to make the angles.  I also validated that the eventual Fuel cell would fit if needed.  I spaced a 1" bar forward of the harness bar that is the actual "back" of the seat.  


There is a relatively high center tube running horizontally forward with matching tubes on the sides.  The seats will basically be a sheet of aluminum that matches the contour of the tubes.  I will likely run a piece of 1/2" tube along the center of the seats that will support this sheet.   

It's going to be snug, but It always was going to be.  I can get in and out pretty easily with a dummy steering column in the middle.  It's basically like sitting in a Formula style car.  Your legs can't really go anywhere but they also don't need to.   I'm not 100% sure that the bar up to the dash will stay in the end.  I may bring a tube diagonally back instead and just end the seats there.  that tube doesn't really add structure but it does divide up the cabin.  I also have to figure out where the shifter will go.  My original plan to run it over the column and out the side seems like it might now work because the cage node is in the way.  It may wind up up on the dash with the rods running down vertically between the seats.  The issue with that is running the tube that willl get that motion to the transmission under the seats, as there is only 1" of space.  I'll figure out a solution I'm sure but it just might take some figuring.  

I have work off until the 4th so I expect even more progress incoming.  Next up is finishing all the tubes that will make up the bottoms of the seats, and the cross tubes in the main area.  

Total Tube added, +13.27' 1x1, +11.73' 3/4x3/4 $17.02

+5.5 Hrs

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/25/20 4:58 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

If that center dividing tube doesn't add any significant structure, I'd nix it. It will only narrow your options for the interior in the future. You can always add a nonstructural upholstered divider later if that's the aesthetic you want. Amazing progress as usual and I'm looking forward to seeing how this shapes up.

TurnerX19 SuperDork
12/25/20 8:50 p.m.

Put the shift lever to the left of the driver and run the linkage outboard of the chassis. If you can't shift with your left hand move the driver to the right side and put the shifter outboard there. Virtually all sports racers with stick shifters are done that way.

karplus2 GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/25/20 9:44 p.m.

Column shift...make it happen.

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/26/20 9:40 a.m.

Spent a little time on Christmas noodling on the seats/controls, and managed to put a few tubes in.  because of the shape of the seats the small "flat" at the bottom of the seat was basically going to require 3 cross car tubes in the same 6" area of the frame.  That annoyed me greatly.  I needed the rear most one to provide a place to anchor the lap bars, and provide for the bottom of the seat "back".  I needed a tube to land the transition from the seat "bottom" to the "flat".  And I needed a tube to reinforce the actual floor at what will be the actual lowest leading edge of the frame.  So I put in the two pieces that go at the bottom of the frame and then had an epiphany.  The seating surface doesn't actually go all the way to the frame rails.  Meaning you don't have to sit on them, the vertical sides of the seat will be inset about 1" from the 2x2 tube.  That means the seat can be inset below the top of these.  Which means I only need 2 tubes.  It's a Christmas miracle!  So I put this section of tube in.  It is actually in front of the bend in the 2x2 tube.   I angle notched this tube so the 1" face would be vertical below the angled piece. 

This will allow a wood flat floor extension to be installed hanging bellow the elevated part of the frame.  The actual chassis floor will be 2 pieces and bent and riveted to this vertical as well Had I not done this I would of had a weird angled end to the wood floor area.  

So with those pieces fit I was able to modify my seat mockup that keeps giving 1 last time so I could see how the new seating position works.  

It actually works really well.  You sit about 1/2" lower and a tiny bit further forward, but the support of your thighs is improved relative to the older seat design, and the front edge of the seat will now end at the 2" tube, so I saved a weird transition where the seat bottom intersected with the 1" section of 2" that made the angle down (Sorry if this doesn't make sense..)

So then I looked at shifter locations.  I think I can make a left hand shifter work in this gap in the Rollbar.  It's not perfect, and makes getting in a little bit trickier as you leg has to get in between the column and the shifter but I would work.  I also determined that the top of the column should have a  clear shot to get rods off to the left so that may be an option also.  

And the view with me In it.  I put some steel plates beside my hips/legs to check how it would be with sides.  You can see how "snug" it is but again it's just like sitting in a Formula style single seater.  It's not spacious but it's adequate with good egress.  I couldn't be smaller but it doesn't need to be bigger.

+1.5 Hrs (119), +6.27' 1x1 ($4.26)

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/2/21 10:49 a.m.

Has been a strangely not productive week on the 360.  I've only spent about 4.5 hours in the garage.  There has been a bit of stare and have a think time as I try to work out the seats.  Every now and then on projects like this I tend to get "stuck" in a spot where I can't settle on a path forward.  It's not that I can't figure out ways to get forward it's that I can't get decide on the "right" way forward.  I knew the seats where going to be one of these but after several raging internal debates I've determined my path forward.  So it's time to get building.  

The first think I did was put in the lower floor cross braces.  These are 3/4 square ($4.48) and will be where the anti-sub straps are anchored.  

I then spent a few hours chasing my tail on some shoulder supports.  I like how they look and they seem like they will work, but I'm not 100% sure I'm going to use these and will likely make them bolt in.  But mocking them up enabled me to start on the template for the seat back.  It's a bit of metal origami but I think it's going to work.  I'm going to run some 18ga steel angles along the sides of the seat back that the seat sides and back will rivet to.   The bottom of the seat will be .060 aluminum and the back/sides will be .030 (That's the plan we will see if the whole thing needs to be .060)

Rather then put a triangulation on the "step up" part of the floor i'm going to just weld on a sheet of 18ga in that area.  This also adds the bonus of something with a little more strength then aluminum under your giblets when driving.  

So all that brings us up to date and was 4.5 hours of work.  I still need to add the 1/2" tube and sheetmetal to the cost spreadsheet but I was going to wait until the template is done and I start adding the frames permanently to figure up the total.  

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/2/21 3:15 p.m.

Because you're a smarter man than me I think I'm going to copy you and build a frame table out of wood.  Do you have any issues welding with the wood?  Is TIG that much cleaner than MIG that you can get away with it?  

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/2/21 4:59 p.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

I don't.  In my last video one of the bloopers is a ball of weld fell on the table and I brushed it around.  It left a little trail.  

The MDF seems fairly hard to ignite.  I don't weld right up against it, I usually stop a 1/4" away.  I wouldn't use it for a welding table but it seems pretty tolerant.  

I've not had any issues with the wood frame sagging.

That said at current pandemic wood prices you probably could use steel for the same price..

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/2/21 6:47 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

Thanks.  I don't think MDF will work for me as I'm a redneck working under a shade tree in the dirt.  I might build a temp overhead structure to keep the weather out.

nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/2/21 7:24 p.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Oh yeah if outdoors is a thing go 1 or 2 sheets of 3/4 treated plywood. If the frame is straight/rigid it should work.   I had a trailer with a treated ply deck and it lasted outdoors for 10 years and would get snow/leaves left in it holding moisture against it for months at a time.   

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
1/2/21 8:42 p.m.

Love the origami aesthetic. Those will look awesome in sheetmetal. Are you going to use foam? If so what kind? That seat style looks very similar to Lotus Europa. Guessing yours will turn out similar?


Edit: just realized you commented on that thread about the seats already, so you're already aware!

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