Nocones $2020 challenge build thread

In reply to nocones :

I'm kinda thinking you should mount the fenders to the control arms/front knuckles & leave the gaps between them & the body.

Please tell me that you have a plan to have functional headlights mounted in those fenders.

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to nocones :

I'm kinda thinking you should mount the fenders to the control arms/front knuckles & leave the gaps between them & the body.

This is mandatory now

barefootskater (Shaun) said:

Please tell me that you have a plan to have functional headlights mounted in those fenders.

This is also mandatory

tuna55 said:

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to nocones :

I'm kinda thinking you should mount the fenders to the control arms/front knuckles & leave the gaps between them & the body.

This is mandatory now

Disagree. I wanna see that full LMP body kit!

barefootskater (Shaun) said:

Please tell me that you have a plan to have functional headlights mounted in those fenders.

Yes.  They will work.  I would love to get some terrible tacky looking LED headlights from a Brodozer Jeep because they look the most like the alien eye headlights from a 919 and Toyota TSO40 LMP1 car.   I'm looking for a set and would love to find them for <$50.  If the budget has room I'll just buy them of Amazon.

I appreciate the enthusiasm for the "Cycle fender" type look the vision I have for the car has the fenders mounted to the chassis and "integrated" like the Praga R1.   The Caparo T1 has the fenders more "floating" and although it looks good it's just not the look I'm going for.  

In reply to nocones :

Not less than $50, but I have these destined for the travelall I think. https://amzn.to/3eAs7SH

nocones said:

I had a bit of rough go last night.   This is not really a report on progress on the car but more of a story of the journey of building a car like this.    

I started to work on the Toe Control mounts.  I was planning to run a bolt in a sleeve and then have two tabs that capture a 1/2 rod end.  After I got everything mocked up to measure for the rod end bolt I found out that the rod end needs to be about 1/2" inboard of the centerline of the bolt.  That means that the rod end would overlap with the bolt.  That's, not good.  

Ok fine, try again.  So I made a few sleeves similar to the chassis bungs and will run wider plates with short spacers to hold the rod end.  There is clearance from the underside with the rod end removed to tighten the bolt to the steering arm.  So I cut some plates and clamped everything up to validate that I had the location correct for 0 bumpsteer. 

So I lowered the suspension all the way, clamped a bar to the hub and made sure it was parallel to the vehicle centerline (No toe).   To save time once I was sure I had no toe I measured from the back of the bar to 1 spot on the chassis (This becomes important soon and you may already know where this is going).  So I start cycling the suspension up and down and I get ~5/8" of toe on my 2' bar clamped to the hub.  That's.. Not great so I try a gain.  I Re-measure the LBJ, Cut an old one in half to make sure I know where the pivot is and try again.  This time I get 3/4" toe measuring to the 1 point on the chassis (This is over 6.5" of suspension travel the full range from A-arms interfering with chassis top and bottom).   Now becoming frustrated I try again..   better but still back to 5/8" toe.  So I take everything apart, move to the other side of the suspension and try again..  Still 5/8" toe.  It is at this point that I begin to struggle mentally.  I know that there are no problems that I won't eventually work my way out of but I start to get frustrated and start thinking about all the challenges left on the car (Here's looking at you front UBJ mounting) and I start to question why I am doing this.   I'm not sure how everyone else is but the peak to valley of emotions when workign on a project like this can swing wildly and quickly.  Some moments you ride the high of having just finished something big and having it work, or are jamming on knowing how cool where you are heading is, and other moments you can only see what's left, and you get really focused on just how much work there is.  Building a car from scratch is cool you get to do everything however you want and build everything by hand, but the flip side is you have to do EVERYTHING, and cars have a lot of things.  Once something happens with the build that is that first wave that crashes over you I can easily start to feel like I'm drowning.  This was one of those times.  

It is at this point in a pit of despair ready to throw car parts and make for-sale posts that I say to myself.. I should check the toe again at the top and bottom by measuring the front and rear of my bar just to make sure (Again those of you smarter then me already know what I'm going to find).  At both the top and bottom with the toe link positions that lead to 5/8" apparent toe, I have 0 toe.  It's then that I realize my mistake.  See when A-arm suspensions move the track width changes based on the radius of the VSAL.  Since I am using short VSAL in the rear to have a good camber curve, I have a fair amount of track width change over 6.5" of travel..  Like 5/8".    Since I was only measuring 1 spot on the hub bar I was measuring the Track width change and thinking it was Toe change.  My Toe link was in the correct location.  Everything was fine.  

So I guess the lesson learned is when something unexpected happens slow down, check your methods, and make sure the problem actually exists.  Otherwise you may get sad and waste ~1:45 thinking negative thoughts and getting frustrated.  

I snapped this picture and went inside to bed.  Tonight I will try again.

I just wanted to bring this to the front because it should be in the magazine- a whole tech article about slowing down, re-measuring, and taking a break for a minute. In my own build I had nearly this exact problem- I'd designed, measured, jigged, welded... I mean, uncharacteristically carefully, as sometimes I can just be a bull in a china shop.  Then I put it all together and the rack bound up on the lower a arm. That was the pit of despair moment, throwing parts moment, cursing, etc. I sat down, ran the whole thing through the full movement vertically, steering hard left and right. Anger. Despair. I walked away for a little bit, and thought- lets re-center everything where it is supposed to be. Check all measurements. Start at ride height. I did that- turns out, I had placed my steering rack too low in the chassis, and it was causing the bind between the tie rod and the a arm. 

Sigh. So I guess before cutting metal or throwing things, maybe just re-set everything, take a breath, have a cup of coffee. 

And No-Cones. This is just so awesome dude. I wish we were neighbors so we could build crazy E36 M3 together.

Not a huge apparent progress but I completed welding of the front suspension and made the steering bungs.  I'm pretty proud of these.  They are tiny and unimpressive looking but they are accurate and the taper was made with a boring bar not a taper ream.  They mesh really well with the steering ball joints.   +2.0 Hr, +$0.66 for 1" solid rod.

Also my Aero Kit arrived.  Soon it will be time to get to whittlin.  And I will need help designing.  I will devote some posts to that once I get some sketches together.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

Thanks man.  It would be cool having neighbors into this sort of thing.  I know some people in my town do car stuff, but ive not yet found any that do this kind of thing.  

I like the idea of a GRM summer camp or meet just to hang out and share/learn.  Sort of like a metal meet but for stupid cars.  Garage door is open if anyone is in the area and wants to stop by.

In reply to nocones :

Sign me up for GRM summer camp! I've hosted my own in the past (Datsaniti build party weekend of April '18) and it was an amazing memorable experience.

Also, damn, machining your own ball joint adapters without a reaming tool? Very grassroots.

In reply to maschinenbau :

​​​​​​I never knew how incomplete my life was before I owned a lathe.   It's just a simple cheap 1932 Atlas but with no skill or knowledge I manage to use it constantly to turn out adequate parts.   Manual Lathes are like polar coordinate etch-a-sketchs.  

I'm terrified for how much randomness I will be able to build once I eventually get a mill.  

Honestly the confluence of cheap nitride coated Import tooling and Old Consumer grade American machine tools really is a boon for the home machine hobbiest.  I just bought a $20 3/8 boring bar and set my cross slide at a 3.5* angle and sent it.   

In an effort to locate the steering rack I have turned the front of the car into a pincushion.  I have settled on a location that achieves 1/16" of bumpsteer over 6" of suspension travel.  This seems fine for me.  I do have to do a little more surgery on the area where the steering shaft meets the footwell bulkhead.  I anticipated this may need to occur and honestly am suprised how my initial atempts at clearance nearly held up.  I have to make clearance becasue the rack is lower then I anticipated because the A-arms were bent down to accommodate the hoodline.  Everything is interrelated and has a consequence.  +1.0 HR +$0.

Since I started the project I've watned a hotwheels or a model of a Subaru 360 to modify just to be able to see the 3D form (However rough it would be) in person.  But all the 360 toys are pretty expensive and I've watched enough Jakarta Diecast to know that modifying a hotwheels is a big project itself.  

I was surfing for random Subaru 360 things the other day and saw a papercraft template for a 360.  And I thought, well that looks simple enough, so I made 2d printouts of the Sketchup model, used Paint 3D to isolate them from the background, pasted them into GIMP and cut off what I didn't need.   I did a little bit of stretching of various parts and ended up after a prototype with this.

There is still a bit of work to do on some of the templates for overall shape.  The front fenders need massaged to prevent gaps, the roof is a bit long hence the seam, and I'd like to figure out the inside of the rear fenders.   Then I need to add tabs and slots to the template so you don't have to use so much tape.   When I get the template finished I'll post it up so you can build your own LMP360 at home.  The overall model is about 6" long and 3" wide when printed on normal office paper. 

Holy E36 M3 that is cool man. 

Keep up the good work, this seems like it'll be legendary when it's complete. 

nocones said:

Also my Aero Kit arrived.  Soon it will be time to get to whittlin.  And I will need help designing.  I will devote some posts to that once I get some sketches together.

Was that really cheap off-cut stuff you scored a great deal on?  I'll be a little curious to see/hear how you're thinking of using it.  The next 10days are a bit iffy for me, but let me know if you want to chat sometime.

In reply to nocones :

I'm not sure if they've announced the Challenge judges yet, but once they do you should mail each of them one of these prior to the event. 

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

It was not.  It is actually fresh brandy new cedar fence pickets.  That pile weighs about 20lbs and even with today's insane wood prices they where $3 each.  The how I'm going to physically use it is still a bit under development.  The general plan is to make the aero kit like a Cedar Strip Canoe (Margie Please don't delete my thread this isn't spam).  That's why all the renders have Wood grain for the wing and underbody.  I scored a broken stainless steel grill from the curb to build hear shields for the engine bay.  

For what I'm going to build I was going to reach out to you about Aero theory.  It's not urgent so your 10 busy days won't slow me down.  I will work on a schematic and post detailing my Aero plans soon.  I will likely dig up Robbie's Aero discussion post and we can take it over there and I will put the highlights here.  

The paper model is too cool. When you are done tweaking it I would love to make one.

This build moves so fast I have trouble keeping up with just reading the thread...

However, I do have some experience in building wooden aero for the challenge, so please pull me in wherever and whenever. 

this year, I'm hoping to make a wing out of a pile of used aluminum soffit flashing. Or fiberglass. I really should just dive into the fiberglass and figure it out. 

nocones said:

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

For what I'm going to build I was going to reach out to you about Aero theory.  It's not urgent so your 10 busy days won't slow me down.  I will work on a schematic and post detailing my Aero plans soon.  I will likely dig up Robbie's Aero discussion post and we can take it over there and I will put the highlights here.  

Mostly, the next 10-ish days are going to be "not so good" for doing something like a Gchat/FB/Zoom/Discord video/voice chat.  Robbie's thread is a good starting point.  One difference though, is whether you want to build the challenge aero within the confines of the "NASA NASA ST3/TT3" rules set?  And, if there's a TL;DR condensed version of that classes' aero restrictions?

off-hand, one of my concerns with the "strip-plank" method, is having enough structure to transfer the loads in to a/the pickup points on the chassis.  Also, the renderings have a dual-element wing for the rear.  But, there might be some benefit to building a "high camber, large leading edge radius" single element foil... since that'll simplify some of the setup/tuning compared to a dual element (at least for challenge).

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

make a wing out of a pile of used aluminum soffit flashing

Can confirm, aluminum housing materials make great aero and bodywork components. Rivets and seam sealer. Paint covers all.

nocones said:

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

It was not.  It is actually fresh brandy new cedar fence pickets.  That pile weighs about 20lbs and even with today's insane wood prices they where $3 each.  The how I'm going to physically use it is still a bit under development.  The general plan is to make the aero kit like a Cedar Strip Canoe (Margie Please don't delete my thread this isn't spam).  That's why all the renders have Wood grain for the wing and underbody.  I scored a broken stainless steel grill from the curb to build hear shields for the engine bay.  

For what I'm going to build I was going to reach out to you about Aero theory.  It's not urgent so your 10 busy days won't slow me down.  I will work on a schematic and post detailing my Aero plans soon.  I will likely dig up Robbie's Aero discussion post and we can take it over there and I will put the highlights here.  

So it's going to look good and smell good too! Love the smell of fresh cedar!

Now that is definitely one way to infuse some of Subaru's, "Earthy Crunchy" culture into the build! Oh, now you have got to carve, "Beaver Approved", or something, into the wood for all to see!

Last night I played with FRIGGEN LASER BEAMS!

Took an hour and made some extensions for the stock steering arms and then got the front steering arms mocked up.  To set the location of the ball joints I attached a flag to the chassis right above the center of the rear axle.  I then took my laser line making thing and ran a line through the upper ball joint and the center of the rear axle.  I was then able to trace the laser beam on the cardboard template for the steering arm.  Then locating the ball joint bung was just a mater of picking a radius.  I went about 1/2" shorter then the stock Subaru steering arm.  The offset from the stock arm is because of the Caster angle.  Being closer to the upper ball joint puts the steering outer ball joint further back on the upright.  This method is 10x more professional then how I did it on the MG where I just did it by eye.