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DanyloS
DanyloS New Reader
12/10/14 12:03 p.m.

F20C swap?? just putting it out there

JamesMcD
JamesMcD Dork
12/10/14 12:21 p.m.
wvumtnbkr wrote:
pres589 wrote: The Mazda F2T would be a nice swap candidate as well. Or an FE3 with a turbo. I don't know how much torque the transmission in your car and handle but it should be a bellhousing swap away from bolting to an F2T. You would probably need to make your own motor mounts for that swap, though, where as some common swaps have mounts available off the shelf.
The NA rx7's have a non - removable bell housing. However, I *think* you can use a turbo II trans with the truck trans bellhousing to bolt to an F2T. I wonder if the F2T would want to stick up out of the hood?

I imagine you'd need to use a custom intake manifold, and move the distributor to the front side of the head, using Bongo parts.

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/10/14 3:15 p.m.

Really wish I had the funds and time to do a sweet swap like that.

I found a 302 with 150K out of a lincoln town car. Guy wants $400 and he said I can pull it so I can mark the harness and take tons of photos to help with the install. He also said I could take the harness and computer as well. Its still in the car so I can hear it run. Might have to look into it.

Also the guy who I traded for the RX7 might be interested in a motorcycle I have for sale so that will help get the funds going!

MrJoshua
MrJoshua PowerDork
12/10/14 3:32 p.m.

An EFI 302 in that chassis will make a really fun car.

pres589
pres589 UltraDork
12/10/14 3:40 p.m.

In reply to JamesMcD:

MS / EDIS > Bongo / dizzy

Still requires a funny intake.

JamesMcD
JamesMcD Dork
12/10/14 5:43 p.m.
pres589 wrote: In reply to JamesMcD: MS / EDIS > Bongo / dizzy Still requires a funny intake.

But if you use bongo parts, you get to say "bongo" a lot more than you might have, otherwise.

Skervey
Skervey HalfDork
12/10/14 7:38 p.m.

We need more pic!!

Say hello to pop up headlights! smallIMG_1374

Got it into the shop tonight so I can finely take a good look at it! Not to bad of a start for a project. The only thing is I think the car was wrecked at some time because the front end paint looks a bit brighter then the back 1/2. Not a big deal but not the best news either.

The inside is a bit rough and screams 1988 but seats feel good and a real leather wheel always feels good in the hands!

smallIMG_1384 smallIMG_1399 smallIMG_1407

And the heart that is 1/2 stripped out of the car. So here is a bit more back story on the car. The PO had the car with the stock motor and a friend that had the current motor (bridgport) and it had 5 lug, 4 piston brakes lowering springs and sway bars... So he bought the car from her because they could not get it to run well with the stock EFI. She never did get him a title so the PO swapped all the good stuff off the (blue) car onto this one. That is why I have a extra hood doors and fender. He ran the car with webber side drafts, MSD. He said he thought it had 190hp (but like real dynos butt dynos all read a bit different) After running the car like that he got a hold of a E21 and proceeded to turbo that witch left the RX7 sitting and so he started pulling parts and putting them on ebay to fund the next set to his build of the car witch was V8.

So that is the story of my little car. I did get some power ran to the car today he pulled the main fuse so im going to get it this weekend and go from there.

And the only bad spot on the car... She has some rot under the stock battery location... Ill have to fix this when the motor is out.

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/10/14 7:41 p.m.

Also don't think im going to go with the lincoln motor I need to hold out until I get my hands on a H/O 302 helpfully with gt40 heads.

I also spun the motor sounds like it has some good puffs and some a bit weaker but im not to rotary guy so I cant say. But it does spin very freely and if its in gear it will try and run you over then you try and spin it...

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/11/14 8:32 a.m.

How good is it to ground the battery to the body? I have never done a battry in the trunk so havent looked into it yet. I know iv got to ground the motor to the frame(body in this case) but is the body enough for grounding the battery?

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/11/14 8:59 a.m.

yes. Most cars ground to the body.

You MUST ground the engine to the body as well.

Grounding can be a nightmare with the 2nd gen RX7s. Can be, but doesn't have to be.

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/11/14 11:15 a.m.

Sounds good. And yes the motor will be grounded but the rotary will not run in the car but the V8 will be. Really looking farward to getting the main fuse and having everything work. Thats my bigest worry about the car is the wiring... So hopfilly it will all work that would make everything else that much easier.

Beagle
Beagle New Reader
12/11/14 12:24 p.m.

Explorers have a short waterpump setup that may give you more space. The roller cam they use is 10* shorter intake duration than a HO 302's, same exhaust. 256/266 I think. With the gear your car has a cam change would seem to be in order for any of the roller cam motors.

An LSC Lincoln is a good donor candidate, it's got the forged piston HO 302 mill and is likely to have been less beat on than a Mustang. I bought a '92 a few years back with a bad AOD for 400.00 complete car, still see them from time to time for cheap. That would get you all the harnesses and an ECU and probably still 300.00 in scrap value after it donates it's goodies. There's probably 45 pounds of copper in it. :)

I think there are hood clearance issues with a HO EFI manifold, but the Thunderbird's low profile manifold will fit under the hood. There's a guy named TMoss that will port the lower for a reasonable price and it would probably be a good call if you go with the Tbird's manifold.

If you haven't looked at the granny's page yet, it's got the installation instructions and a ton of good detail on what your up against. I'm not affiliated or trying to sell parts, but it's the best source of information I've seen.

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/11/14 12:42 p.m.

Thanks beagle! Ya havent figured out what motor is going in just yet im just trying to see what will work best. I plan on doing a cam swap on the V8 before it goes into the car so i wont have to pull the motor again later down the line. Then do heads and other bolt ons that can be done with out pulling the motor or radiator when the time comes. From what I found the lincon motor is pritty dull 150hp and 200lb tq. Not to bad but could be much better. I dont see a cam taking me all the way to 200hp witch would be my starting gole for the first phase of the build (v8 in the car and driving) but i can pull all of the wires and the comouter and do it myself so i can mark what goes ware and take tons of pic and he is asking $400 for it. So there are lots to think about but definitely need to get a plan going. As far as granny speed iv been all over the site and read all of the installs and if I can get one from him ill do it. (Iv heard ppl have waitied 6 months or more for a kit?!?!) and the t-bird intake sounds like a grate idea!

pres589
pres589 UltraDork
12/11/14 12:56 p.m.

I think I'd get an Explorer 5.0 for the shorter accessory drive, EDIS, and better intake manifold. A cowl-induction style hood is probably available or you could do something at home; http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/95100/10002/-1?parentProductId=2677714 might be useful. The heads are better as well. The factory cam is a bit weak but either higher ratio rockers or a different cam would fix that.

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/11/14 1:33 p.m.

Ok ya id really like to find some way to keep from cutting the hood but to run efi it might not be possible. Also how easy is it to tune the 302. Id like to run a cam(nothing crazy) and heads and headers. If its going to be a pain in the butt and cost a lot I might just run a carb

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/11/14 8:14 p.m.

Well got a little extra time to work on it tonight that I didn't think I would get so I got to do my favorite part of any new project. CLEAN EVERYTHING!!! Yep I love getting the gunk and the funk out helps me to think of the car as my own. I find little issues I have not seen before and get to know the car a bit better and lets be honest working on a clean car is much better than a nasty one.

I also spun the motor over with a compression tester and I got the needle to move some but seeing as my 1/4 turn at a time is not near enough to get a reading I guess I will have to wait till I have the main fuse to see if the motor is any good.

I really wanted to yank the motor out tonight but I guess it can wait... Besides my jack wont even get under it its to low!

Still thinking about motor. Might have to call someone from comp cams and talk to them about upgrades im wanting to do and go from there. Another thought is taking a old 5.0 out of a lincoln and turning it into a roller cam motor and putting some gt40 heads on it till I can afford aluminum heads. But I don't know if the harness and computer from the linclon town car will be the same as most other 5.0 and how it will be interfacing it with other parts... I need a 5.0 expert...

Might as well put a pic up since iv already taken 84 of them haha well pic now will help with the rebuild later.

Here is some stance

Opti
Opti Reader
12/11/14 10:10 p.m.

If you are wanting to do this cheaply, just use junkyard stuff. Explorer heads and intake and go find an old letter cam at a swap meet for like 50 bucks.

A buddy made 265 at the wheels through a t5 with that setup. Ill get him to send me the graph and ill put it up.

Have no idea about tuning. Assumed if swapped you would be using a megasquirt, if the stock ecm is usable, I believe it is chipped and similar to the 3rd gen fbodys, apparently its not common on the foxs because of ecm placement (its supposed to be hard to get to), so most people change timing on distributor and put in 24# inj with a maf thats compensated for them. Assuming its similar to the Fbody setup you can get the equip to burn your own cheaply or find people on forums that will do it for you.

This is all anecdotal. I dont own a ford, but my friends seems to run pretty good for whats done to it.

Beagle
Beagle New Reader
12/12/14 7:49 a.m.

err...yeah, sorry, this will be a little bit long. There are a lot of things to consider.

The Lincoln probably is a Speed Density computer... my LSC was. They don't suffer lumpy cams very well. The SD computers are batch fire, the MAF stuff is sequential if I remember correctly. This gets important for a couple of reasons. Non HO cams use a different firing order than the HO cams (HO is same as 351.) so the harness needs to accommodate the cam. Also, the MAF / sequential engine harnesses are a little different than SD/batch harnesses with the way the injectors are grounded and obviously the extra Mass Air meter wiring. Moates Quarterhorse and Tweecer are both external tuners for the Ford EEC IV (pre ODBii). Megasquirt has a plug and play as well. All are not cheap (by my "I'm Cheap" terms anyway). Chip burning is likely still a possibility. Ford used different computers for AOD or T5 cars as well.

Distributors for non HO cars have a traditional iron gear. Roller cam engines had a steel gear. The gear needs to match the cam. The late Explorers used coil packs and the "distributor" isn't a traditional distributor - it's a stub for the cam position sensor/ oil pump drive.

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/#EEC is a good place to start looking at the wiring / EEC information

'86 302's had one year only bastard E6TE heads which you will find no love for. Best to walk away from an '86 unless you're gonna leave it stock. The HO pistons are different as well for the '86 (no valve relief) and create issues with any other heads.

the '85 GT used a Duraspark distributor with the right gear on it if you want to go carb'd. Fleabay sells some china junk with a supposedly melonized gear that works with roller cams, and GM HEI cap and module. I don't have much feedback on it, I put one in a truck and it seemed fine but I never put many miles on it so I can't speak to the gear wear. It's the easiest of anything to wire, one wire. Davis makes a good version but it's $$.

Mustangs from '85-'92 and Lincoln LSC's used forged TRW pistons. The HO and everything else got hypereutectic pistons in '93. The late model Explorers use a metric low tension ring pack on their pistons. I think that was the last of the 302 usage (Explorer/Mountaineer) and I'm not sure if any other mills got the metric rings. The late Explorer also has a unique plastic lifter spider unlike the metal spider from everything else. It's a lot like the LS where you can spin the cam and the lifters will stay up. You don't have to pull the lifters to pull the cam, which is a real benefit because stock heads have to be pulled to get the lifters out. Aftermarket heads don't seem to have that problem.

The simplest way I can think of to get it in the car and make okay power would be:

LSC or Mustang HO long block (forged pistons)and tins (oil pan should work)

GT40 heads with new springs

Edelbrock Performer intake or something in a dual plane / low rise and a smallish Holley or Demon - 600-650 should be plenty

GM style distributor or '85 Duraspark dizzy

The stock HO cam is really not all that bad, but it doesn't like to rev a lot. I'd actually consider a FMS B303 if I could find one for 50.00 or so. It's not the best but it's dang good for 50.00... Checking Piston to Valve clearance is really advised with anything much larger than stock duration.

Long tube 1 5/8 headers

if that's an EFI RX7 it will need some kind of fuel regulator to get the pressure down in the 3-5 psi range.

all I can think of at the moment. I'd expect 260-280 hp crank from that setup if the rings are sealing.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/12/14 7:56 a.m.

Awesome info!

If I wanted to do the same thing, but stay EFI, do you have a recipe for that?

Thanks!

Rob R.

Beagle
Beagle New Reader
12/12/14 8:32 a.m.

Opti's suggested combination is real close. An Explorer engine would be the cheapest way to get the most good parts. I'd rather have forged pistons but other than that, it's got plenty of goodies. LKQ online on fleabay has them with accessories for cheap a lot of times. I picked one up from a 2000 Mountaineer for right at 500.00 a few years back. They don't like to spend time taking things off so mine still had the power steering pump, all the accessory brackets, the exhaust manifolds, coil packs, flex plate, starter, pretty much everything. It was a 100k mile engine that still showed all of the original hatch marking in the cylinders... pretty much just broken in. I love modern engines. It also uses the short accessory drive like a 94-95 Mustang (maybe t-bird?) that will give you an extra inch or so of room.

I'd get one of those and change the cam and maybe the distributor depending on what computer being used, put 24 or 30# injectors in it, long tube headers, and megasquirt it. The GT40p head has a good intake port and a not as good exhaust port. Dual pattern cam should help. In a light car I'd look at something like a Comp XE266HR or XE274HR. Probably the smaller of those. It really doesn't have enough compression ratio for a huge cam and the intake manifold is really long. Something like 15" of runner, so a really big cam is kind of counter productive. The "cobra" intake they use also uses a 65mm throttle body instead of the 58 or 60mm TB of the HO.

the A9L computer is probably the most tolerant of the Ford EEC IV computers, but a Megasquirt offers a ton of flexibility. Downside of the Megasquirt is complexity. Upside is the vast community and their willingness to share and help. They can drive coil pack or coil on plug ignitions. It's really likely that somebody has built a base tune already for any of the gozillion different 302 combinations.

On the RX7 I would give serious thought to having a t-bird intake ported and using that. The stock hood thing really appeals to me.

Oh yeah - the late Explorer uses a crank trigger wheel on the harmonic balancer. That and the coil packs make for a really decent ignition system.

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/12/14 6:28 p.m.

Wow that's a ton of info!! Thanks guys for all the help!

Well as of right now this it what I have. 302(unknown what motor) t5 and an tbird intake to keep it under the stack hood.

That's all IV decided on as of right now everything else is up in the air. For the motor I'd like to get a explorer motor with gt40 heads not the gt40p heads. Ecu I have no idea... I think for now I'm going to run a stock motor right off the bat then mod the motor later on with aluminum heads and a little bit better cam and get a real tune when I do the upgrades. The stock explorer 302 has 215hp witch is a strong NA 13b but the torque of v8 will be the biggest advantage over the rotary. I'm looking at explorer motors on ebay and they look to be easy to find. Can't find explorer motors on CL and going to a junk yard a few time will be a bit of a pain. Has anyone gotten a motor from ebay? I could then grab a harness and ecu from ebay the grab a t5 locally. Then get a new lightened flywheel and a good clutch to keep up with my ultimate HP goals.

Does this sound like a decent game plan?

Opti
Opti Reader
12/12/14 6:55 p.m.

I wouldnt buy one from ebay because shipping will probably kill you. Find some 5.0 people in your town and they probably have leads o even motors laying around. A buddy has 1 fox and I could go to his house and pick up two longblocks for nothing, like literally nothing.

Its almost a requirement if you have a foxbody, you have a 5.0 laying around somewhere.

I just found a mountaineer motor for 325 complete and pulled for you in like 3 seconds of searching. Where are you located?

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/12/14 7:13 p.m.

I'm in charlotte NC I know there is a fox body shop not to far away I can stop in one day and ask around. I know good roller motors are out there but I'm not seeing them. IV also looked at just buying the whole explorer and selling the shell after pulling all my goodies. But IV also read that the ecu from the explorer are no good and don't have any options from tuning and only allow like 4,000 rpm but I would have to get new valve springs to run high rims with the gt40 heads. But then I'm looking at my other cost on top of buying the explorer donor car I still need all the tranny parts. So maybe it's cheaper to find a mustang... Maybe I need to look into wrecked mustangs. Ga this is getting hard already and I haven't even turned a wrench yet!! This is just what I signed up for!!! Time to learn all kinds of new stuff!

Skervey
Skervey New Reader
12/12/14 7:25 p.m.

Also as far as shipping goes I work at a hotrod shop and we ship pallets 350lb to 1000lb all the time and shipping is not to bad we get a grate discount so that opens up lots of opportunity as far as getting motors from other ppl from the forum. Anyone know of someone with a 5.0 swap and need some cash? I'd really like to pull the motor myself so I can take pic of all the plugs and how at all goes back together but if I can find a motor for sale with all accessories and wiring and a good price I'd jump on it. So I'm still all over the place and don't really know what I'm going to do. I would like to sell the rotary motor to pay for the 302 but that is best case.

Opti
Opti Reader
12/12/14 8:58 p.m.

This guy looks like he does mustang salvage. Ive had good luck with people like this for fbody stuff.

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/pts/4785473216.html

$550 Explorer Engine

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/pts/4767256060.html

Seriously though, like you said there is a severe lack of 5.0s on craiglist in your area, unless you wanna call tanisha and spend 800 dollars.

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