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SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/23/20 7:52 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

Next time you do siding or work up high go rent or buy scaffolding. Not only will the job get done in about 1/4 of the time because you are walking along side the wall instead of up and down ladders. 
You'll be safer  since you aren't constantly moving the ladder and maybe a leg will sink in too far or slip out of place. 
Another hint? Use the ladder to get up on the scaffolding. It's easier, safer, and faster than climbing up the scaffolding itself.   
If you are nervous about heights scaffolding helps. You have 4 foot wide planking that will be flat and level.  
Doing roof shingles, 4 foot wide   scaffolding at the bottom of the eves is a big safety net. 
 You can use either 6 foot wide boards or 10 foot wide. Planks and X Braces  determine which. The 6 footers are a little less bouncy  but of course you'll need more frames.  I have 16 frames and I can cover either 90 feet or 160 feet depending on if I'm using 6 or 10 footers. I used 6 footers when I was building my stone walls.  But 10 footers as fall protection. 
Finally  aways  use the 4 foot wide stuff. not the 3 foot wide stuff meant for inside the house. I've got scaffolding up 5 levels high and it's still sturdy. That 3 foot wide starts getting tippy after just 2 levels. 
I got my scaffolding 2nd hand ( or 3-4-5-7 hand ) but bought new planks ( do not use boards!!!!!!! Use OSHA approved planks ) 

The frames and X braces really don't wear out but planks do and if you see boards rather than OSHA planks  Leave them there. ( unless you need concrete forms.) just don't stand on them 30-50 feet in the air and hope the knots hold. 
 

There are options that allow you to hoist stuff up on a pulley system and width extensions that allow you to work over things jutting out the the building ( bow windows or other obstructions.  They also have adjustable stands so you can get everything straight and level  no matter how  uneven the ground is. 
I have a set of wheels so I can move things around without taking them down. 
 

The first time you put scaffolding up it will probably take 3 times too long but you'll quickly learn how to do it either by yourself or with help. 
 

I've seen scaffolding  140 feet high.  But when you're working at that height there are faster and safer ways to work. 

I love your intent, your attitude, and your generosity. 
 

Your scaffolding setup and advice leaves a lot to be desired. To anyone who wants to work safely, please ignore most of this post. There is almost nothing about it that is correct scaffold setup. 
 

I still (heart) frenchy. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/23/20 10:02 a.m.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Fair enough! I'll admit I've never taken a OSHA safety class on Scaffolding. ( endless # of classes on equipment and high lift plus Crane operation and training. ) but nothing on scaffolding. My comments and observations are based on selling equipment to contractors and the Government  since 1984. 
So what are the safety rules I got wrong?  
Are you saying it's safe to use wood boards as planking? OSHA stamped planks aren't required?  
  You can't go more than 5 levels High?  I'd swear I've seen higher at the various schools and government centers I've sold Telehandlers to. 
 Please I'd like to learn. 
thank you. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/23/20 12:13 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

- Your scaffold frames are 5' wide, not 4' 

- I have never seen a 6' or 10' scaffold. They are generally 7'

- You can't build a scaffold more than 4X it's width without securing it to the building or guy wires. In the case of your 5'x 7'  frames, that would be 20'.  3 sections. 

- All areas that have any planking MUST be planked as fully as possible.  1 or 2 boards wide are not acceptable. 
- Wood planks are acceptable, but must not deflect more than 1/60 of the span. They need to overlap support points by 12" or be attached. Metal ones are better

- All planked areas must have safety guardrails on 3 sides plus mid rails.  That includes the open ends. 
- All scaffolding must be within 14" of the building  If outriggers are used, they must be within 3" of the building

- All frames must sit on base plates or mud sills so they do not sink in the dirt

- In most cases, it is not ok to lean a ladder against a scaffold. Use a proper scaffold access ladder (don't climb the frames)

- Toe boards are required on all planked areas. 
 

These are general safety guidelines. OSHA requires quite a bit more (including formal training, and a qualified competent person to set up)

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/23/20 1:36 p.m.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Please understand that scaffolding was put up by a 4th generation Stucco company. Not by me. They complied to most of what you listed.  Where he differed I just didn't feel like telling him how to put up scaffolding. He gave me a fantastic family discount ( my wife's father was 2nd generation)  If you look everything was on mud sills.  Probably not visible though. 

Must be a local thing. Here in the Midwest everything is 6 or 10 foot. Not 7.   But yeh its's 5 feet not 4 feet. 
Here any use of a non OSHA planks would get you slapped with a great big fine. Plus the Unions would be screaming.  I doubt you'd keep your insurance too. 
As far as the ladder?  I started using that decades ago when I saw most work sites had ladders strapped to the ends.  At age 72 if I go up the ladder built into the ends of the scaffolding I'm shot by the time I climb up  

I've never seen toe boards on any scaffolding.  You can't use them on masonry sites because the masons slide pallets of brick, stone, or block  on the scaffold.  Every company does it that way. 
 

  

 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/23/20 4:14 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I understand.  I work with hundreds of guys who have been "doing it that way for 20 years".  That's no excuse.  And I know what is done.  But those are the OSHA requirements.  And anyone busted doing it any other way could be looking at 6 figure fines.

OSHA does allow nominal dimension wood, but they de-rate the span load ratings.

And sliding a pallet of masonry onto scaffold is a big no-no.  Those planks have to have a 4X safety margin.  They are not rated for a full pallet of masonry (and neither are the metal ones).  OSHA's maximum allowable rating would be Heavy Duty- 75 lbs. per SF.  That's 2625 lbs in a standard 5'x 7' frame area, but OSHA would also say that full thickness undressed wood planks would need to be supported every 6' to achieve Heavy Duty rating.  They are only supported every 7' with standard pipe scaffolding.  A pallet of bricks weighs 3000- 3400 lbs.

Some of this is not totally relevant- OSHA has no jurisdiction over homeowners or do-it-yourselfers.  But it DOES define safe practices.  And ALL employers are required to abide by these guidelines (including residential 4th generation stucco companies).

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/23/20 4:18 p.m.

The only time it would be ok to lean a ladder against a scaffold is if the floor, etc of the scaffold in nailed in place and the scaffold is secured.  Even then it would be debatable.  It's not ok to lean a ladder against a loose laying scaffold plank or a scaffold frame that was not tied to a secure wall.

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/23/20 5:50 p.m.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

That's why Lull telehandlers became the favorite of masons. With its sliding boom ( different from a telescopic boom ) the operator would raise the pallet to just above the planks.  Extend  the whole boom assembly forward until it was properly in place and then lower it down the needed inch or so.  Doing so didn't shake or pull the scaffolding so masons wouldn't need to stop working and hang on.  
You can't do that by driving forward or trying to match extend with lowering.  But the whole boom sliding forward on those greased rails allowed a pallet to be placed while masons worked on. 

I sold Lulls to the masons union to train them. Then trained their operators to be instructors themselves.  It's how countless schools and office buildings were made. In those days we had Lulls and Pettibones. Period.   The  Pettibones came later. But not used by Masons. 
 

When Caterpillar introduced their own Telehandlers I had to sell them to the carpenters to build apartments and houses because no Mason would ever look at anything that didn't have the traverse action Lulls did. 

ps all the scaffolding he put up is 10 feet

Most of mine is 6 foot( called masons scaffolding ) but I think I have 10 ten foot braces.    carpenters,  painters,  and siding guys all use 10 foot. 

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/23/20 8:49 p.m.

Tonight I figured out how not to put this wall up. I'm usually pretty well composed but there was swearing. And tool throwing. Maybe trying to manhandle big oak beams by myself on a stepladder wasn't the best idea. But it gave me cause to step back, reevaluate, and come up with plan b which I think will work better.....I'll let you know tomorrow. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/23/20 9:13 p.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

If you won't use scaffolding build yourself a work platform to work off of.  It's infinitely easier setting something down than holding two wobbly things and trying to get them aligned. 
Working on a wobbly wall with heavy beams. To add to your grief  your working on the ends of them  and they both are moving around.  
 

I've  done what you're attempting to do and  it's very nearly impossible. 

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/24/20 6:34 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

After watching me try and fail a few times my wife (who used to work in nursing homes) said "This is the kind of crap that ends with people eating strained carrots and pooping in a bag for the rest of their life." 

Well when you put it like that......

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/24/20 8:08 a.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

The fast and safe way is to use a telehandler  to lift and dangle the beam and have someone on a boom lift align things.  
But they'd  cost a thousand a week to rent and you're talking $150,000 to buy new.   So a couple of hundred dollars for used scaffolding that you can sell later for nearly what you pay is sounding pretty cheap. 

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/24/20 8:17 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Yes, scaffolding and a tele handler would be a great way to do this. I get it. But I have always gotten more done with what I have than what i wish i had.

Dad is bringing his loader tractor over tonight after work. Mine doesn't go high enough. That should get it. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/24/20 8:56 a.m.
gearheadmb said:

I have always gotten more done with what I have than what i wish i had.

that's a great line. i'm gonna start using it with my kids when they tell me they wish this or they want that.

 

mke
mke HalfDork
9/24/20 10:14 a.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

Most nice tig welders want a 100A breaker....so I put a 125A panel in the shop as 125 was the largest breaker that only took 2 spots, a would have taken 4 spots in the house main panel.  Nevermind it you're not planning on a big welder.

Now a serious word of caution.  Years ago I lived on a property with an old dairy barn...it was like 30x60 floor and a 30x45 hey loft.  I setup a little shop space with sort-of heat then over the next 15 years filled it the place completely. Then cam the day I had to move and I realized my "projects" I was saving were really just crap I pretty much could give away.  The "stuff" will will whatever space you have if you aren't very careful....VERY careful frown

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/24/20 2:15 p.m.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I just discovered something that should be a OSHA mandate but isn't.  
I have a couple of Oak trees.  One white one red. 
The produce Acorns. Lately in high winds they sound like machine guns going off on the roof.  
I climbed up on the scaffolding. Acorns every place.  Step on them and it's like you have 50 ball bearings under foot. Keystone cops sort of traction. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/24/20 2:28 p.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

That sounds better than working off a ladder.  But Shhhh, we'll keep it a secret.   

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/24/20 3:23 p.m.
mke said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

Most nice tig welders want a 100A breaker....so I put a 125A panel in the shop as 125 was the largest breaker that only took 2 spots, a would have taken 4 spots in the house main panel.  Nevermind it you're not planning on a big welder.

Now a serious word of caution.  Years ago I lived on a property with an old dairy barn...it was like 30x60 floor and a 30x45 hey loft.  I setup a little shop space with sort-of heat then over the next 15 years filled it the place completely. Then cam the day I had to move and I realized my "projects" I was saving were really just crap I pretty much could give away.  The "stuff" will will whatever space you have if you aren't very careful....VERY careful frown

My attic is where dead things go to be. I'm hoping one really big dumpster will hold everything. I'll hire a couple of young guys to hump it all down and into the dumpster. My best guess is there are 20+ computers up there.  
The biggest thing is the suit of armor I Got in Mexico back in 1967 plus about 2000 VHS  cassettes  and a thousand or so books. 

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/24/20 7:48 p.m.

Beams are up

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/25/20 5:14 a.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

Not to be too much a nudge but the verticals are posts and the horizontals are beams. Hence post and beam construction. Differs from Timberframe construction.  
But it looks very good.  

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/25/20 6:15 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I know the first part, but how is it different from timberframe? I thought the two terms were interchangeable. 

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/26/20 6:59 p.m.

Today was a good day. I got the rafters made and put up.

It's starting to look like something. Plus dad came over to help for a bit so I got to spend some quality time with him, so that was nice.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/27/20 6:28 p.m.

I worked on the roof some more today. I got the sheating boards on

What I wanted to do next was tear off the rest of the corrugated roof so I could replace whatever boards need fixed and install the new used metal troof in one shot, but it's supposed to rain all day tomorrow, so I just roofed what was open.

 

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/27/20 6:54 p.m.

If you're curious how many times you can drop a Stanley leverlock tape measure off a roof before it stops working, the answer is three.

Its served me well for a few years now. That'll do, tape. That'll do.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
10/4/20 1:33 p.m.

I got the siding boards on and the sliding door put back on yesterday. So it's more or less closed up. I need to do some tweaking on the door, and I still need to put the metal siding on to be able to call that corner done. It's raining today. I went out and checked and there are no wet spots on the floor, so apparently the used roof I put on isn't leaking. So I feel good about that.

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
10/4/20 1:39 p.m.
gearheadmb said:

If you're curious how many times you can drop a Stanley leverlock tape measure off a roof before it stops working, the answer is three.

Its served me well for a few years now. That'll do, tape. That'll do.

Do not throw it away!!!  

get a pair of tin snips and cut it every foot 

spread them around your shop.  

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