The car in question
This would obviously be a huge project, but it has a title and it is a slick top.
My main concerns are:
- Is this an actual Z28? It has the spoiler and front bumper cover I think that the Zs had. That doesn't mean anything, though. I've asked for the VIN.
- How available are parts for these?
- Rust. Rust. Rust.
- Did these have an LSD or was that an RPO option?
- Should I stuff the 454 I have in there regardless of what a bad idea it is? Is it still CAM legal if I do that? I may be able to do that for Challenge money
My F-body knowledge is weak, so if I'm missing any huge concerns, let me know.
Actual Z28 doesn't mean a bunch when you are talking about a shell. You got stripes and side skirts, a different nose, and a bunch of Z28 insignia. Springs, fast steering box, sway bars and wheels were the performance stuff. Engines were all v8, with a low perf 305, a lower perf 305, and a non-running efi 305 crossfire.
83 still would have had a turbo 200, or an M22. (I know. A Chevette trans, or a Corvette trans. Weird.) Five speed T5 or 700R4 showed up in 84.
7 1/2 inch ten bolt. Hot rod gear was a 3.42. Most were a 2.93. Some LSD. Some drums, some disc rear. There was some weird Australian 9 bolt thing out there, too. Before Players Challenge, so no 1LE package yet.
I can fabricate you a 8.5 if you provide me with a leaf spring diff from a 75-81 F body and the 7.5 from the car to use as a donor for the brackets. It might take me a while to dig my fixture out from under 20 years of stuff, but its still here.
Note- Mine above isn't very stock.
Posi was option - RPO code is G80 if the service parts sticker still exists.
I wouldn't because I'm lazy and lack fab skills. But I'd love to see that thing HAMMERED to the ground, with flares and ridiculously wide tires (at least 305) at every corner.
Seems like it's the ideal car for an LS swap. I can't see anything bad about that.
If you are wanting to build it for CAM, does it really matter if it's a Z28 or not? Wouldn't most of that be replaced, anyway?
I agree, it doesn't really matter if it's a Z28 or not. All the Z stuff was bolt-on anyways. Modify the body to fit 315s or larger. See also the Detroit Speed third gen, that's an awesome car. Plenty of good ideas on that car they did.
A stronger rear axle will be needed with a 454. Headers for a 454 suck in a 3rd gen, really tight fit, but Hooker does make them. But it would be fun ride. A LS or newer LT swap would be fun too, just a bit more green needed.
As it turns out, it doesn't matter.
Some good points were raised, though: Does it really matter if it is a specific trim level if I'm just going to be messing about with it anyhow? Getting a V6 in great shape and doing an engine swap would make more sense than getting a lesser quality V8 chassis.
glueguy said:
Posi was option - RPO code is G80 if the service parts sticker still exists.
RPO code list should be in the center console box and have a VIN to match to the firewall.
z31maniac said:
I wouldn't because I'm lazy and lack fab skills. But I'd love to see that thing HAMMERED to the ground, with flares and ridiculously wide tires (at least 305) at every corner.
Hell, you don't even need flares for 305s. I run that square on my street car. But I do enjoy a good flare.
81cpcamaro said:
I agree, it doesn't really matter if it's a Z28 or not. All the Z stuff was bolt-on anyways. Modify the body to fit 315s or larger. See also the Detroit Speed third gen, that's an awesome car. Plenty of good ideas on that car they did.
A stronger rear axle will be needed with a 454. Headers for a 454 suck in a 3rd gen, really tight fit, but Hooker does make them. But it would be fun ride. A LS or newer LT swap would be fun too, just a bit more green needed.
Look for a feature on the Detroit Speed third-gen Camaro in the November issue.
Brett_Murphy said:
I'd almost rather have either of these than the 3rd Gen. The 4th Gen is more modern and the 2nd Gen would allow me to live out the car dreams my 10 year old self had.
That 2nd Gen is about 20 minutes away, too.
Keep in mind, those of us a few years younger feel the same way about third gens as you do about 2nd gens.
And a thirdgen is the prettiest of the three under discussion:
I'm really not a fan of F-bodies. Front and rear subframes are bolted to a floppy unibody with big rubber donuts. It's like two marshmallows held together with boogers. Even if you get good subframe connectors welded in, you still have a 7.5" rear axle that doesn't have anything that easily swaps because of the torque arm.
Bonus is that they'll swallow almost any engine from the chevy/BOP family with the right mounts. Plenty of Caddy 500s in F-bodies out there.
They CAN be made to handle and be cool/fast, but good golly they are a long way from it in stock form.
David S. Wallens said:
81cpcamaro said:
I agree, it doesn't really matter if it's a Z28 or not. All the Z stuff was bolt-on anyways. Modify the body to fit 315s or larger. See also the Detroit Speed third gen, that's an awesome car. Plenty of good ideas on that car they did.
A stronger rear axle will be needed with a 454. Headers for a 454 suck in a 3rd gen, really tight fit, but Hooker does make them. But it would be fun ride. A LS or newer LT swap would be fun too, just a bit more green needed.
Look for a feature on the Detroit Speed third-gen Camaro in the November issue.
Came here to say the same. Holy gravy third gens rule.
In reply to Brett_Murphy :
So looking into the Gen2- how hard is it to get CAM quality speed parts?
Both- IMHO, the engine choice is obvious- but I think the LS swap is a pretty sweet option that my company really doesn't have. Before going 454, I'd really do a spreadsheet of the costs to make the same power out of some 6.x truck engine. Or even a crashed aluminum LS engine. It seems to be a great starting point.
Curtis said:
I'm really not a fan of F-bodies. Front and rear subframes are bolted to a floppy unibody with big rubber donuts. It's like two marshmallows held together with boogers. Even if you get good subframe connectors welded in, you still have a 7.5" rear axle that doesn't have anything that easily swaps because of the torque arm.
Bonus is that they'll swallow almost any engine from the chevy/BOP family with the right mounts. Plenty of Caddy 500s in F-bodies out there.
They CAN be made to handle and be cool/fast, but good golly they are a long way from it in stock form.
While 3rdgens aren't known for having an overly stiff chassis, they don't have bolt in subframes at either end.
Brett_Murphy said:Does it really matter if it is a specific trim level if I'm just going to be messing about with it anyhow? Getting a V6 in great shape and doing an engine swap would make more sense than getting a lesser quality V8 chassis.
You're probably going to end up doing an engine swap anyway since the engines from that timeframe were much of the reason why Americans started buying Japanese and German cars en masse.
No matter what, buy a good shell. You can fix trim level, you can do engine swaps and rearend work, but a beat to crap shell is much harder to fix. These cars were flexi-flyers and did not age well, either.
Curtis said:
I'm really not a fan of F-bodies. Front and rear subframes are bolted to a floppy unibody with big rubber donuts.
You really must not like them... there is no rear "subframe" (it's a solid axle) and the front K-member (not a subframe, it only supports the engine and lower control arms) bolts solidly to the tub, no bushings.
They are remarkably like an alternate universe Fox body. Same goofy "modified MacPherson" strut system that, by using a spring on the control arm, eliminates 90% of the advantage of a strut suspension, same similarly-goofy steering geometry. The difference is the F-body has a recirc ball steering and the bumpsteer is more or less good, and it has a rear axle that works, whereas the Fox body has a rack and pinion that manages to feel more vague than recirc-ball because of cheap components and a horrible Ackerman curve, and a rear suspension that doesn't work. You can buy aftermarket kits to make the Fox body have a rear suspension like the F-bodies, and for bumpsteer and Ackerman, that takes fiddling but can be fixed. Or you can just buy a Camaro. (And I'm a Ford guy saying this)
But the Mustang was as much as 25% cheaper than a Camaro/Firebird...
That 2nd gen looks GOOD. I always liked the ‘74 up bumpers. Most GM cars look like poo with those federally mandated rams but somehow the Camaro manages to wear them well.
iansane said:
z31maniac said:
I wouldn't because I'm lazy and lack fab skills. But I'd love to see that thing HAMMERED to the ground, with flares and ridiculously wide tires (at least 305) at every corner.
Hell, you don't even need flares for 305s. I run that square on my street car. But I do enjoy a good flare.
Awesome, lets' see 335/30/18s at all four corners!
3rd gen Camaro's are pretty, but 4th gens are the best performance bang for the buck.
Curtis said:
I'm really not a fan of F-bodies. Front and rear subframes are bolted to a floppy unibody with big rubber donuts. It's like two marshmallows held together with boogers. Even if you get good subframe connectors welded in, you still have a 7.5" rear axle that doesn't have anything that easily swaps because of the torque arm.
Bonus is that they'll swallow almost any engine from the chevy/BOP family with the right mounts. Plenty of Caddy 500s in F-bodies out there.
They CAN be made to handle and be cool/fast, but good golly they are a long way from it in stock form.
Third gen is full unibody. Doesn't mean it's not a bit flexible, but it's a ton more rigid than the previous cars.
If you go 2nd gen have a look at the stuff I make to stiffen the chassis. https://www.lab-14.com/
3rd gens are usually more expensive to modify than 2nds and 4ths.
As pontiacstogo mentioned 4th gens are currently the performance bang for the buck. You can find pre LS 4th gens with the LT1 in nice condition for very reasonable money. My sister & hubby have a nice 94 Z-28 that lives in a storage facility other than a once in a while Sunday drive. They were shocked to find out how little people would pay for it when they put it up for sale recently. I explained to sis that early 4th gens aren't really "desireable" and just the storage fee is more per month than it will appreciate, and that doesn't include the cost of consumables that deteriorate like tires, hoses, belts etc. so I think they'll sell it for a little over 4 thousand. Crappy looking LS 4ths are challenge money.
alfadriver said:
In reply to Brett_Murphy :
So looking into the Gen2- how hard is it to get CAM quality speed parts?
Both- IMHO, the engine choice is obvious- but I think the LS swap is a pretty sweet option that my company really doesn't have. Before going 454, I'd really do a spreadsheet of the costs to make the same power out of some 6.x truck engine. Or even a crashed aluminum LS engine. It seems to be a great starting point.
Copy Gimp's CP build and leave the interior in it?
NOT A TA said:
Crappy looking LS 4ths are challenge money.
This is not my experience. The cheapest non truck, LS powered cars on FB or Craigslist are really beat gto's in the 6k range. at least in my area. people are wanting 8-10k for any ls powered non trashed anything.
