It's not that the car needs more power, it's that the line needs more breadth. If Ford only made one Mustang, one engine option, and said "this way we don't have to re-engineer for different power plants" then people would complain in the same way.
It's not that the car needs more power, it's that the line needs more breadth. If Ford only made one Mustang, one engine option, and said "this way we don't have to re-engineer for different power plants" then people would complain in the same way.
In reply to pinchvalve :
Um...yes we are. And I did in 2015. I've never once thought it must have more power. Maybe I'm just easy to please.
Appleseed said:In reply to pinchvalve :
Um...yes we are. And I did in 2015. I've never once thought it must have more power. Maybe I'm just easy to please.
Fanboism!
I bought mine in 2014.
If you look at the sales numbers, they have been on a very steady decline since they were released.
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/scion/scion-fr-s/
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/subaru/subaru-brz/
mazdeuce - Seth said:It's not that the car needs more power, it's that the line needs more breadth. If Ford only made one Mustang, one engine option, and said "this way we don't have to re-engineer for different power plants" then people would complain in the same way.
No, the car needs more power. Or at the very least, fix the massive tq dip.
mazdeuce - Seth said:It's not that the car needs more power, it's that the line needs more breadth. If Ford only made one Mustang, one engine option, and said "this way we don't have to re-engineer for different power plants" then people would complain in the same way.
I agree completely. I can't think of any reason they couldn't offer an STI version.
z31maniac said:Appleseed said:In reply to pinchvalve :
Um...yes we are. And I did in 2015. I've never once thought it must have more power. Maybe I'm just easy to please.
Fanboism!
I bought mine in 2014.
If you look at the sales numbers, they have been on a very steady decline since they were released.
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/scion/scion-fr-s/
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/subaru/subaru-brz/
I would honestly say that's to be expected with this car. It appeals to a niche market and the people who wanted one ran out and bought one and saturated the market. And it's not the kind of car that that you trade in every 3 years for a new one, a lot of the owners are car enthusiasts and hold onto them and modify them.
jstein77 said:mazdeuce - Seth said:It's not that the car needs more power, it's that the line needs more breadth. If Ford only made one Mustang, one engine option, and said "this way we don't have to re-engineer for different power plants" then people would complain in the same way.
I agree completely. I can't think of any reason they couldn't offer an STI version.
Would need stronger rods, bigger injectors, lots of added weight, stronger trans and halfshafts (diff doesn't seem to be an issue until ludicrous power). And bam, now you're at the price of the WRX STi.
z31maniac said:jstein77 said:mazdeuce - Seth said:It's not that the car needs more power, it's that the line needs more breadth. If Ford only made one Mustang, one engine option, and said "this way we don't have to re-engineer for different power plants" then people would complain in the same way.
I agree completely. I can't think of any reason they couldn't offer an STI version.
Would need stronger rods, bigger injectors, lots of added weight, stronger trans and halfshafts (diff doesn't seem to be an issue until ludicrous power). And bam, now you're at the price of the WRX STi.
I'm going to approach this carefully since I know the BRZ is a touchy subject and I don't own one.
I bet #3 is the hang-up. The STi and the BRZ don't really occupy the same space in the market as I see it. The problem here is that Subaru, despite having twice the market share of Mazda, is still a niche player at 3.5% of the US market. If a buyer is going to shop for a new car and even remembers Subaru exists, it’s pretty likely it’ll cannibalize the sales as much as enthusiast’s squawk that it won’t.
I started out with the opposite opinion and convinced myself it was a bad idea as I wrote this...
The Camaro ranges in price from $24K to somewhere north of $75k for a ZL1 1LE with boxes ticked. Why does the BRZ have to live in a single price range?
mazdeuce - Seth said:The Camaro ranges in price from $24K to somewhere north of $75k for a ZL1 1LE with boxes ticked. Why does the BRZ have to live in a single price range?
Don't ask me, I don't make decisions for Subaru. They apparently thought it would be a bad idea.
more power doesn't mean more weight.
slightly larger bore/stroke, redesigned head, different tune/intake/exhaust adds no weight.
to add an STI variant.....slap on a turbo/intercooler, and reduce weight somewhere else. Less padding, more AL/carbon, lighter wheels, etc
People buy the WRX/STI for the AWD and/or 4 doors. The BRZ is a completely different vehicle. No cannibalizing of sales.
dean1484 said:I must be getting old. People are actually complaining that a car is RWD. LOL.
no one in their right mind is doing that. The RWD is its main redeeming factor.
In reply to onemanarmy :
I disagree. I started out with that opinion but the more I think about it the more I think it would cannibalize sales. Enthusiasts buy the WRX STi because it's a bonkers car which has enough aftermarket support to dial things up to 11. This is the same niche that the BRZ occupies or would occupy as an STi variant. We can argue about this but 2 doors vs 4 doors matters a lot less to these buyers in general than the performance envelope does.
Your average buyer doesn't go looking for an STi when a Limited or Base will do the same thing (AWD! Safety! Carry Dogs! Outdoorsy hipster E36 M3!) for a fair bit less, again if they remember Subaru exists. Looking at the sales data from last year the BRZ only sold a bit over 4600 units. Subaru would likely be looking at doing a ton of engineering work and parts sourcing for maybe 500 units(?) since they'd be expected to offer a warranty. I'd be willing to bet it would add a $10k to $15k premium to the car targeted at a group of people whose rallying cry is "I'll just get one when they're used and cheap."
onemanarmy said:more power doesn't mean more weight.
slightly larger bore/stroke, redesigned head, different tune/intake/exhaust adds no weight.
Read my earlier post, yes, more power does require more weight (Or more expense, because of the use of extensive exotic materials). You and I can build souped-up versions that run ragged-edge tunes or that we know we have to baby the differential or clutch or axles, but OEM warrantied reliability is a whole 'nother level. They have to be able to survive the full bellcurve of owners (from people who religiously maintain and baby it, to people who only know enough to put gas in and turn the key, to people who flog them on racetracks) and operating conditions (suboptimal fuel, high and low temperature extremes, extended idling, etc). So with more power, you have to have bigger and beefier clutches, transmissions and axles, and bigger brakes to rein in the added power speed, and bigger wheels and tires to put it to the ground.
^SHhhhhhh, this is the internet. We don't like facts.
Hyperbole and conjecture rule the day!
Ford, Chevy, Dodge, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche all make coupes with a 2x-3x power spread within individual models. Subaru does it themselves in other models. This isn't a "can't" thing unless is was exceptionally poor planning. Mazda is guilty of this too.
Most of you are missing a major point of this vehicle; the "joint venture" aspect with Toyota / Scion. You can Subaru it all you want, but the 800-lb gorilla in the corner could shake its head and make it go away. Think about the Ford / Mazda joint ventures, and how that went with sales.
I really think the STI would be a slightly different market. Has the regular BRZ canabalized WRX sales? They're right around the same price point, seems like the perfect analogy to me...
I haven't driven one yet, although I intend to soon as I'm starting to get serious about shopping a new dd (probably starting a thread soon.) The power isn't a turnoff for me. I think 200hp can be plenty for what the car is trying to be, which I dig, but also understand not everyone else will. A more powerful variant vastly broadens that appeal, I think, even if it has to come at the expense of a little more weight. I really think there are other concerns at play aside from the marketability or technical feasibility keeping the STI from us.
Interestingly, I just saw one of those Yellow cars driving down the road today. It looked pretty nice.
mazdeuce - Seth said:Ford, Chevy, Dodge, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche all make coupes with a 2x-3x power spread within individual models. Subaru does it themselves in other models. This isn't a "can't" thing unless is was exceptionally poor planning. Mazda is guilty of this too.
It's been mentioned multiple times just on this page.
More power = more weight = more cost. What it would take to build a proper turbo BRZ is going to put it up in the Mustang GT with the Performance Pack price range. I suspect you'd likely add ~150lbs to the BRZ once you add the cast manifold, all the plumbing, stronger components, etc.
A new BRZ Limited with the Brembo's MSRP is just a tick under $30k.....literally a few hundred dollars. A properly designed and warrantied turbo (and all the associated hardware like halfshafts, transmission, etc).......I'd bet a new BRZ turbo would be in the $35-37k range.
When most of the buyers are young men in the 21-29 range.........that's going to be a hard sell for a few hundred units per year.
In reply to z31maniac :
No, I understand that. It's pretty clear from all of the other cars that are designed to have multiple levels of power that the lower power models are over-engineered and the upper power levels are stressing the chassis. I think we all understand that. The problem is Subaru/Toyota saying that different power levels in one chassis never crossed their minds. I guess that could be the case, it does seem like Mazda does that with the Miata, but if you build a car with only one option, don't be surprised when you're drawing from a relatively small pool of people. And again, maybe that was the point, only sell the cars in small numbers, but that still seems like a weird way to go about it for a pair of manufacturers. But then I come back to Mazda who has done it for 30 years and it's hard to say that the Miata is anything but successful. In the end, the 86/BRZ is what it is and isn't going to be anything else. That's cool, it's a great car, I'd love to have one.
Yeah, and the NDs are breaking the gearbox at stock power levels.
I'm just holding out for the Mustang GT PP2.
They are joint with Toyota. Toyota doesn't like fast cars unless it has a Lexus badge.
But, if they could the brz/frs to over 300 horsepower with only adding 150lbs then that isn't bad! It be the same as adding a passenger for the ride (i bet most americans are over 150lbs 
).
A 300hp+ BRZ with an extra 100-150lbs would be Cayman S like. And if $35-38k would be the price point, well sign me up! That isn't a whole lot of money for what you get.
But, you know enthusiast, want all the perks and not pay for it. For their price point, this is what you'll get. If you want more oomph buy up or mod what you have.
Honestly I have no interest in a turbo BRZ. I'd rather see a more eager N/A powerplant in the existing car----- say something like the MX-5 has in it now. Sadly, the car was built around the flat-four, and that engine to me is.......uninspiring. It's not bad, but it doesn't celebrate the rush to redline, it doesn't goad you on. It's just kind of there.
With a zingy power plant, this car could be a world beater----even with 220-240hp. For me, it isn't so much the lack of power, but the nature in which that power is delivered.
Please don't get me wrong, the BRZ is a great car. It was aimed at us, and really hit the bulls-eye. The steering, shifter, brakes, ergonomics and chassis of the BRZ are wonderful. The car is so darn close to perfect, but sadly, I don't think we'll ever see the "ideal" BRZ......... not without an engine swap. For me, boost or power isn't the cure......it's the content of the engine's character.
Joe Gearin said:Honestly I have no interest in a turbo BRZ. I'd rather see a more eager N/A powerplant in the existing car----- say something like the MX-5 has in it now. Sadly, the car was built around the flat-four, and that engine to me is.......uninspiring. It's not bad, but it doesn't celebrate the rush to redline, it doesn't goad you on. It's just kind of there.
With a zingy power plant, this car could be a world beater----even with 220-240hp. For me, it isn't so much the lack of power, but the nature in which that power is delivered.
Please don't get me wrong, the BRZ is a great car. It was aimed at us, and really hit the bulls-eye. The steering, shifter, brakes, ergonomics and chassis of the BRZ are wonderful. The car is so darn close to perfect, but sadly, I don't think we'll ever see the "ideal" BRZ......... not without an engine swap. For me, boost or power isn't the cure......it's the content of the engine's character.
Yep. If they could build a 2.5 liter with the extra tq and 230-250 hp that still wanted to rev..........I think it would be about perfect.
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