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Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy UltimaDork
8/19/19 9:51 p.m.

Base model car, Elkhart Lake blue, Museum delivery option, and no other options but that panty removal thing you guys promised me.  

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
8/19/19 10:30 p.m.
Cloud9...68 said:

With this car now a reality, why would anyone buy a:

- Supra - They won't

- Any Lamborghini - These are flashy and cache'd enough to still sell

- Any McLaren - Oh, easy, that's a completely different dimension of car. The C8 isn't a quarter of a McLaren, and even Joe Avergae can figure that out in person.

- NSX - Good point, they won't. It's already a sales dud.

- Pretty much any Ferrari - Like the Lambo and McLaren, completely different clientele. They are exactling and demand perfection, somthing GM will never do.

- Ford GT - I'm pretty sure you could take the turbos off of the GT and it would still lap any track quicker than the Vette. This is an actual racecar in disguise, completely different car and mission.

- 911 - This one is a good point, the 911 is already hurting from the Boxster/Cayman, entry-level McLaren, and the special C7's. I can see the C8 capturing a lot of this market, especially if GM doesn't berk up the quality.

- Mercedes GT - They still sell this?

We'll see what the road tests reveal, but on paper, GM seems to have a game changer on its hands.  Nice to see this kind of engineering prowess demonstrated by an American company.

My hang up is still just "GM". They always do promising on paper and disappointing in reality (Volt, Spark EV, C7 Z06, 5G/6G Camaro, Cobalt SS, etc, etc, etc). Honestly if it was literally anybody else making it, hell even Hyundai/Kia, I would be super interested and chatting with a dealer now. But GM? I think I'll wait...

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/19/19 11:12 p.m.

I don't care about the commuter cars you mentioned, but what is the disappointment in the C7 Z06, the SS 1LE, or the Cobalt SS?

 

mattm
mattm Reader
8/19/19 11:17 p.m.
z31maniac said:

I don't know. I still kind of want a Supra over 'Vette 

i don’t believe you.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
8/19/19 11:36 p.m.
z31maniac said:

I don't care about the commuter cars you mentioned, but what is the disappointment in the C7 Z06, the SS 1LE, or the Cobalt SS?

 

C5 and C6 Z06 were manual-only track gods much revered and raced. The C7 Z06 was a heavy, steel-framed automatic-only, supercharged old man car show special that melted down in 2 laps when it came out. The 1LE was needed to fix the SS in both generations of Camaro and were still sales flops. The Cobalt SS was unique, then turned into a badge-special (the SS/NA), and then finally done right in SS/TC form but still suffered from a SRA, weak brakes, and terrible build and materials quality. 

Every enthusiast GM seems to be a great drivetrain wrapped in a cheaply made and assembled body chocked full of cost-cutting and carelessness.

(Note - I've owned dozens of GM's from the 1950's-2000's including a C4, a 4G Camaro, and have extensively driven/worked on friends and family's including a Cobalt SS/SC, C5, C6 Z06, GTO, and CTS-V2)

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
8/20/19 4:42 a.m.
Javelin said:

C5 and C6 Z06 were manual-only track gods much revered and raced. The C7 Z06 was a heavy, steel-framed automatic-only, supercharged old man car show special that melted down in 2 laps when it came out.

 

For the sake of clarity, the C7 ZO6 had aluminum frame, and you could get any C7 all the way up to the ZR1 with a 7 Spd manual trans, which had far fewer cooling issues on track than the automatics seemed to.

The reason you get exotic car levels of performance for WAY less $$ with these high performance GMs is precisely because they stuff these awesome drivelines into vehicles that share abunch of parts with trucks and econoboxes. That's why a $90k ZO6 runs with a $180k 911 GT3 RS. It's how a $140k ZR1 competes with a $350k 911 GT2 RS.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/20/19 8:34 a.m.
STM317 said:
Javelin said:

C5 and C6 Z06 were manual-only track gods much revered and raced. The C7 Z06 was a heavy, steel-framed automatic-only, supercharged old man car show special that melted down in 2 laps when it came out.

 

For the sake of clarity, the C7 ZO6 had aluminum frame, and you could get any C7 all the way up to the ZR1 with a 7 Spd manual trans, which had far fewer cooling issues on track than the automatics seemed to.

The reason you get exotic car levels of performance for WAY less $$ with these high performance GMs is precisely because they stuff these awesome drivelines into vehicles that share abunch of parts with trucks and econoboxes. That's why a $90k ZO6 runs with a $180k 911 GT3 RS. It's how a $140k ZR1 competes with a $350k 911 GT2 RS.

This is what I was going to say. You can't have incredible performance and a coach-built interior for the price point Corvettes occupy.

joey48442
joey48442 PowerDork
8/20/19 8:58 a.m.

I love it, and it seems like an awesome buy for the money. I really want to drive one. I’m sure sales are going to go through the roof, and it will do good things for GM. But I just can’t get over feeing like, to me, it’s not a Corvette. I know that things have to change, and it will be good for the model, but in my mind it doesn’t seem like the hairy chested brute it once was, and now seems like any other exotic. 

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy PowerDork
8/20/19 9:04 a.m.

In reply to joey48442 :

The C8 is now a "hairy chested brute" exotic.  Carry on.

joey48442
joey48442 PowerDork
8/20/19 9:24 a.m.
Indy-Guy said:

In reply to joey48442 :

The C8 is now a "hairy chested brute" exotic.  Carry on.

I think you misunderstand what I meant, I’m sure the car is better in every way, and that I would like it more in every way (except the trans) and I’d love to experience one, but I don’t feel it matches the corvette name. It probably actually goes beyond the corvette name. It doesn’t match my personal idea of a corvette. It may match everyone else’s I dunno. It probably matches Zoras idea even. Either way, I can’t afford it!

camaroz1985
camaroz1985 HalfDork
8/20/19 10:07 a.m.

If only it had superficial rear seats like a 911 it would be catapulted to the top of my next car list.  Maybe I will have to do 911 and then C8 once the kids don't fit in the 911 any more.

Opti
Opti Dork
8/20/19 11:03 a.m.

In reply to Javelin :

I wouldn't count the C8 out around the track vs a GT just yet. In lightning lap results the c7z was faster, the ZL1 1LE Camaro ran pretty much the same time, and the C7 GS was only about a second and a half slower. I think it will be closer than people think.

I'd give the GT the edge but I'm curious to see how close the C8 can get

classicJackets
classicJackets Dork
8/20/19 11:43 a.m.
Javelin said:
Cloud9...68 said:

With this car now a reality, why would anyone buy a:

 

- Ford GT - I'm pretty sure you could take the turbos off of the GT and it would still lap any track quicker than the Vette. This is an actual racecar in disguise, completely different car and mission.

 

We'll see what the road tests reveal, but on paper, GM seems to have a game changer on its hands.  Nice to see this kind of engineering prowess demonstrated by an American company.

My hang up is still just "GM". They always do promising on paper and disappointing in reality (Volt, Spark EV, C7 Z06, 5G/6G Camaro, Cobalt SS, etc, etc, etc). Honestly if it was literally anybody else making it, hell even Hyundai/Kia, I would be super interested and chatting with a dealer now. But GM? I think I'll wait...

Literally only here to add, the C7 ZR-1 turned a faster lap-time than the GT at VIR, with an engineer behind the wheel. I know it's not representative of every track, but they're closer to the same league than is expressed here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsCbMRqKU1E

 

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
8/20/19 11:50 a.m.

In reply to classicJackets :

But that was *one* lap. It can't do it for a while track session let alone track day. Even GM couldn't get any C7 to hold together long enough for a single lap of the Nuburgring. There's a reason why track enthusiasts stuck with C5/C6 Vettes and didn't go to C7's.

06HHR
06HHR Dork
8/20/19 12:34 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

The lack of a published Nurburgring ring time for the C7 had nothing to do with realiability: Jim Mero interview

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
8/20/19 12:40 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

Are there any other cars that play in the same ballpark as the ZO6/ZR1 in power and cost that would handle all-day track duty better? There are slower cars that can lap all day, and there are cars that are equally fast/powerful that can do it too, but they cost a ton more. Is anybody really pushing the envelope for performance/$ more than GM/Corvette? Is it really such an indictment of GM if nobody else is doing anything even close for the money? I look at it as an amazing triumph that they're selling this level of performance (even if it won't last all day) for these kind of prices. With the C7 you could get $300-400K exotic car performance for 75% off at the high end of the Corvette food chain, and you get $100k car performance for 50% off at the bottom.

The Viper was the only decent comparison I can think of, and it was more expensive and hardcore which is why they no longer make them.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
8/20/19 12:42 p.m.

In reply to 06HHR :

Every other car company on the planet manages to get a time whenever they want...

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
8/20/19 12:43 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Yes, actually, the C6. That's the problem. GM went backwards.

06HHR
06HHR Dork
8/20/19 12:49 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

They got times, they didn't publish them.  In no case did any of the cars not complete the lap due to mechanical failure.  They ran a 7:06 with the ZR1 in engine protection mode.  Hey, the car isn't perfect, but it's damn fast and not the trailer queen the internet makes it out to be. 

06HHR
06HHR Dork
8/20/19 1:02 p.m.
Javelin said:

In reply to STM317 :

Yes, actually, the C6. That's the problem. GM went backwards.

It's not that GM went backwards, it's that the $ to speed ratio of the C6 is so good.  You can pick up a C6 Z06 for a fraction of the cost of the C7 Z06 and have 90-95% of the performance of the newer car.  It's not that the C7 is slow and fragile, it's that I can spend a lot less money and go almost as fast.  It's the reason the C8 is a mid-engine budget supercar, the C7 is near the edge of the performance envelope for a front-engine rear-drive sports car.  And the C6 isn't much slower than a C7.  Good thing for us GRMer's who happen to be poor.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
8/20/19 1:04 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

They gave it 150 more hp, 180 more ft-lbs, and a nicer interior to get rid of some of the "cheap" feeling that you complain about. So it's not really playing at the same performance level, and how is any of that moving backwards? If anything, it's moved the ZO6 up the ladder to where the C6 ZR1 lived. Maybe that's the issue, and we need to compare specs without the model designation? In the C6 gen, the 500hp, naturally aspirated track rat was the ZO6 and the 638hp supercharged car was the ZR1. In the C7 gen, they still offered a naturally aspirated track rat it was just called the GrandSport, the 650hp supercharged flavor of Corvette became the ZO6, and they added the bonkers 700+hp performance tier and called it the ZR1.

The C7 Grand Sport is everything the C6 Z was and more (for less $$). Look at the times this thing ran @ Lightning Lap, and the cars that are in that ballpark:

 

The C6 ZR1 ran a 2:50.7 and the C6 ZO6 ran a 2:53.5 lap for comparison. So a 455hp, NA C7 (name redacted) went over 3 seconds per lap faster than the former top dog Vette with 638hp, and it's a step back? The 650hp C7 (name redacted) went over 6 seconds per lap faster than the 638hp C6 Corvette (name redacted), and was over $20k less expensive. This isn't progress?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/20/19 1:06 p.m.
Javelin said:

In reply to STM317 :

Yes, actually, the C6. That's the problem. GM went backwards.

Wait, I thought I had to have C6Z heads retrofitted so they don't drop valves and kill the engine?

That's "reliability" vs adding a cooler or two?

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
8/20/19 2:00 p.m.
06HHR said:

In reply to Javelin :

The lack of a published Nurburgring ring time for the C7 had nothing to do with realiability: Jim Mero interview

That is actually kind of depressing.  A whole lot of stupid incidental failures like camera hiccups, or bad weather, or just otherwise bad luck.

D2W
D2W HalfDork
8/20/19 4:53 p.m.
Knurled. said:
06HHR said:

In reply to Javelin :

The lack of a published Nurburgring ring time for the C7 had nothing to do with realiability: Jim Mero interview

That is actually kind of depressing.  A whole lot of stupid incidental failures like camera hiccups, or bad weather, or just otherwise bad luck.

I think the best thing from that interview was the fact that the C7 ZR1 in "Engine Protection Mode" ran a 7:06 putting out only 625HP.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/20/19 5:19 p.m.
D2W said:
Knurled. said:
06HHR said:

In reply to Javelin :

The lack of a published Nurburgring ring time for the C7 had nothing to do with realiability: Jim Mero interview

That is actually kind of depressing.  A whole lot of stupid incidental failures like camera hiccups, or bad weather, or just otherwise bad luck.

I think the best thing from that interview was the fact that the C7 ZR1 in "Engine Protection Mode" ran a 7:06 putting out only 625HP.

I was thinking the same. "Only" 625hp.

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