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Jvella36
Jvella36 New Reader
1/19/20 10:40 a.m.

Ok I'm guessing this has been covered before but I want to ask what you guys think about this. 
So I have a road car which is mainly used on weekends and some drift/hill climb events and is equipped with fixed bucket seats, 4 point harness & 4 point roll bar.

Now my question is, which is considered safer;

  • Normal Seats/Normal Seat Belts/No Air Bag (My car came without them)
  • Fixed Bucket Sets/4 Point 3" Harnesses/4 Point Roll bar

Would love to hear different opinions on this because I was considering in reverting back to my old interior due to some people saying it's worse then having the stock setup.

docwyte
docwyte UberDork
1/19/20 10:45 a.m.

Don't use a harness without a sub strap (ie, 5-6 points).  You have a rollbar, get a proper fixed back seat and 5/6 point harness.

Otherwise, remove the rollbar and run all factory safety equipment.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/19/20 11:00 a.m.

4 point harnesses are scary.  In a frontal, your body moving forward will just lift the buckle and have you slide under because there is no central strap holding the buckle down.  In a roll, the harness keeps you from being able to fall to the inside so when the roof crushes you get a nice spinal compression and a future of eating through a straw and maybe being able to shrug your shoulders.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/19/20 11:48 a.m.

The Schroth 4 point are the way to go. Watch their videos. Had them years ago before switching to 6 point with full cage & Kirkeys.

Fixed back seat with support for rollover with a roll bar.

buzzboy
buzzboy HalfDork
1/19/20 7:18 p.m.

Won't catch me in a racecar with 4points. If you've got a race bucket seat you should have a mounting point for an anti-sub strap. Mount it under/behind your buckle, not in front.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
1/19/20 8:25 p.m.

Either use the factory 3 point or go with a 5/6 point harness in conjunction with some type of head and neck restrant.

ddavidv
ddavidv PowerDork
1/20/20 7:23 a.m.

As an instructor I won't ride in a car with 4 point belts.

Olemiss540
Olemiss540 New Reader
1/20/20 7:32 a.m.

The schroth belts with ASM are a great middle ground, but I would not use them without a HANS for serious risk of basal fracture in an accident.

I vote for 3 points on the street and ASM 4 points with HANS at drift events if 6 points are not an option.

maj75
maj75 HalfDork
1/20/20 7:41 a.m.

Don't drive a car on the street with a 4 point roll bar unless you always wear a helmet.

Brake_L8
Brake_L8 Reader
1/20/20 8:11 a.m.

No 4-points for me.

One thing to note - if your car initially came with airbags and they were removed, you need to be careful about the factory 3-point belts. Remember, safety is a system. Seatbelts in airbag-equipped vehicles are designed to allow your body to meet the airbag in a collision. If you remove the airbag, your body may still move a bit in an impact. Yes, the seatbelts should have locking retractors, but you've removed one part of the designed-in system.

With airbags removed from an airbag-equipped car, you need to have 5- or 6-point harnesses. Make sure what's on the passenger side mirrors that of the driver.

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
1/20/20 8:29 a.m.

I'm not understanding the question. You already have fixed-back race buckets and a 4-point rollbar, right? So just get a set of 5-/6-point harnesses and call it a day. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
1/20/20 9:36 a.m.

I drove a friend's car at Willow Springs on Saturday, and it had 4-point harnesses. I wore the stock three-point belt. 
 

General rule of thumb is it's all or nothing: Either use stock safety gear or put a seat (actual SFI or FIA seat mounted on sturdy mounts, not the factory slider), bar and actual harness in all at once. 
 

And go buy a Hybrid S while you're thinking about safety. Skull Fracture=bad. https://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/products/simpson-hybrid-s

Olemiss540
Olemiss540 New Reader
1/20/20 10:00 a.m.
maj75 said:

Don't drive a car on the street with a 4 point roll bar unless you always wear a helmet.

What about stock gt3 with factory rollbar?

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe UberDork
1/20/20 1:11 p.m.

Three points ony on the street without a helmet.   

  

5/6 points on the track with a helmet support system and proper anchors.   

  

It really is that simple  

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/20/20 5:45 p.m.

And if you only have the 5/6 point harness, don't "only" wear the lap belt on the street, even if it just to run a quick errand. Ask me how I know.

You could realistically have both setups in the car and use the proper one for each application. 

Jvella36
Jvella36 New Reader
1/21/20 11:33 a.m.

Can't the regular seat belt also make you submarine? 

Still the main question is, is it safer to have a roll bar, a fixed back bucket seat & 4 point harness rather then regular seats, regular seat belt and no air bag? since my car doesn't have them from factory and if not, is there another alternative which makes it a little more safer?

 

Thanks

djsilver
djsilver Reader
1/21/20 12:11 p.m.

The Schroth 4 point with ASM mentioned above carries an DOT approval .

 

https://www.schrothracing.com/products/rallye-belts

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/21/20 12:13 p.m.
Jvella36 said:

Can't the regular seat belt also make you submarine? 

Still the main question is, is it safer to have a roll bar, a fixed back bucket seat & 4 point harness rather then regular seats, regular seat belt and no air bag? since my car doesn't have them from factory and if not, is there another alternative which makes it a little more safer?

 

Thanks

No, because of the design of the upper belt, it allows your upper body to go forward and control the acceleration to some extent, when your upper body tilts forward you no longer submarine.

4-point harnesses hold your body upright/tilted back and you more easily slide under the lap belt.

The airbag is academic to this discussion.  A fixed back seat, unless FIA rated needs a brace added to a rear rollbar and that is a potential issue, but I would rather use a fixed back seat/brace/rollbar with a 3-point than to ever use a 4-point belt (unless its one of the Scroth ASM pieces, but even those are falling out of compliance with many sanctioning bodies).

Basically, toss the 4-points in the trash or use them for a display or for a kid's pedal car, etc and use a 3-point on the street or a 5/6-point harness on the track with a HANS.  No HANS?  Use the 3-point with a CG-lock and the extra bolstered seat.

jeffpdesign
jeffpdesign New Reader
1/21/20 2:17 p.m.

I've trusted Schroth belts in the past. Schroth and Takata four-point has "ASM Anti SubMarining Technology". One shoulder belt gives slack front impact and and allows your body to bend at the waist like a typical factory 3 point belt and keeps you from submarining. Has someone seen tests that show these to be unsafe? 

https://www.schrothracing.com/products/quickfit

 

 

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/21/20 2:45 p.m.

Looking at the SCCA regs for hillclimbs, only 5 or 6-point harnesses are allowed.

This could vary depending on your specific sanctioning body, but it is something to be aware of before you show up for an event.

and like I said before, the 4-points with ASM are fine, but not all of them have them and even then they may not be allowed at specific events.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/21/20 2:53 p.m.
Stefan said:

Looking at the SCCA regs for hillclimbs, only 5 or 6-point harnesses are allowed.

This could vary depending on your specific sanctioning body, but it is something to be aware of before you show up for an event.

and like I said before, the 4-points with ASM are fine, but not all of them have them and even then they may not be allowed at specific events.

SCCA isn't the only body that has restrictions on the 4 point harness.  When I ran, AROC didn't allow them, either.

jeffpdesign
jeffpdesign New Reader
1/21/20 3:08 p.m.

In reply to Stefan :

My car is far from SCCA hillclimb ready without a roll bar, fire extinguisher and window nets. For SCCA autocross, street and track days a modern Schroth 4pt with AST seems like a reasonable choice for a multi-use car.

adam525i
adam525i GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
1/21/20 8:21 p.m.

Schroth also has newer 4 point belts (Quickfit Pro) that are designed to be used with a normal HANs device, they are applications specific but could be a good option if they make one for your car. I'd feel pretty safe and confident with these in a modern car and a HANs.

 https://www.schrothracing.com/products/quickfit

Personally, I ended up going the 4 point rollbar, FIA seats and 6 point harness route with my track car which does not fall in the modern category (E28). It all comes out pretty easily and the stock interior goes back in inbetween track events so I can still enjoy the car on the street. I originally had the old Schroth Rallye 4 point ASM belts for it which my E28 is listed as being compatible with but they (and the 3 point belts) just don't provide nearly enough protection at a track like Mosport (and it's not fair to expect an intructor to feel safe in that situation either). I do still use those 4 point belts for autocross when the stock interior is in the car but that is very different to a driving school or open lapping day on a real track.

Adam

Jvella36
Jvella36 New Reader
1/22/20 2:41 a.m.

So I guess I'll have a look at the Schroth ASM belts because they seem to be good and function almost like a regular seat belt.

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
1/22/20 7:19 a.m.

In reply to Jvella36 :

The question is: why not just switch to a 5/6-point harness since you've already got the seat and rollbar?

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