In the continuing quest for performance, eventually you’ll hit physical or digital barriers separating your car from that next level. When it comes to the physical barriers, those are usually pretty cut and dried: Piston engines are air pumps, ultimately, so installing those exhaust headers and an intake that increases pumping efficiency are straightforward decisions.
But when it comes to …
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6. Do you have emissions inspections?
Aftermarket ECUs will not return OBD-II codes, so if your car was built after 1995 and you have regular emissions checks, you should check to see if your state has alternative testing methods for cars with inoperative emissions monitoring systems. Keep resale in mind as well, the ECU will prevent you from selling your car to some states because of htis.
"Want to call in an expert? That’s easy. In fact, we recommend having someone qualified perform that first tune and provide a good baseline. " OK - Where do you find an actual expert? There are so many claims on the Internet and in forums, and so many horror stories - is there an index of reliable expert tuners for OEM ECU's?
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Not being able to connect to the computer IS an emissions fail.
You've no idea how many failed emissions I've fixed by replacing the cigarette lighter fuse, usually after digging a penny out of the receptacle.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Not being able to connect to the computer IS an emissions fail.
You've no idea how many failed emissions I've fixed by replacing the cigarette lighter fuse, usually after digging a penny out of the receptacle.
There's a useful trick to look for a cheap car.
AndyHess said:
"Want to call in an expert? That’s easy. In fact, we recommend having someone qualified perform that first tune and provide a good baseline. " OK - Where do you find an actual expert? There are so many claims on the Internet and in forums, and so many horror stories - is there an index of reliable expert tuners for OEM ECU's?
This article is about aftermarket ECUs and not reflashed OE ECUs, but the question is the same. Who would identify a tuner as an expert and/or reliable, and maintain the list? It's always going to have to be crowd-sourced unless there's some sort of training required by the manufacturer of the ECU (or the reflashing interface), and I don't think any manufacturers require that.
If I was looking for a local tuner of something like a Megasquirt, I'd go to the people who sold me the Megasquirt (probably DIY Autotune as they're the adults in the room) and ask for recommendations.
AndyHess said:
"Want to call in an expert? That’s easy. In fact, we recommend having someone qualified perform that first tune and provide a good baseline. " OK - Where do you find an actual expert? There are so many claims on the Internet and in forums, and so many horror stories - is there an index of reliable expert tuners for OEM ECU's?
I didn't read this closely until Keith replied. For OEM reflashers, there will never be a compiled list of business that do that. Ever. Unless every one of them wants a knock on the door from the FBI.
Experts for that have to really be careful, especially since there is a recent crack down on OEM re-calibrate software.
Keith Tanner said:
If I was looking for a local tuner of something like a Megasquirt, I'd go to the people who sold me the Megasquirt (probably DIY Autotune as they're the adults in the room) and ask for recommendations.
There is also "Find a Tuner" on MSExtra.com, if you don't want to wade through FB groups. Also :wave:
In reply to JG Pasterjak :
Thank you so very much for this. I've been trying to sort all this out myself and keep running into a wall.
I really need a EFI for dummies excerpt all of the books I've bought while helpful explaining things fail to walk me through step by step.
There is the mega squirt, here is the V12 now you can substitute this Lucas sensor for that GM sensor by using this connector wired to the Red & green wire.
Maybe not that linear but something close.
My next step is to buy the cables from DIY and see if I can figure that stuff out myself.
I'm actually proud that I've gotten this far. I tried the forums but wow, a newbie really isn't welcome.
I follow a lot of U Tube especially with our Calvin Nelson on his 4200 Atlas.
But he's off and running and I'm not even in the Toddler stage.
I can get onto teams with you and hold your hand on a per-hour basis. I include 2hr with all my pnp system sales in a similar way but limit it to getting the sw running, logging, troubleshooting as all the wiring bits are taken care of already.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
I fully intend to hire your knowledge and experience as soon as I'm out of the Toddler stage. Right now we are still in the building it stage.
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
Thanks, I've got the earlier version of that but maybe if it gets into the real nuts and bolts. (Litterly ) it will be helpful.
I'm a, get it at the junkyard kind of guy rather than buy new. ( the parts not a book)
If you want to substitute junkyard parts, you need to be able to evaluate how the sensors (etc) compare, and that means learning more than just "these are the same if you swap a wire". You're going to have a hard time finding a cookbook that will tell you that without the underlying knowledge. Luckily, other than having a large number of cylinders, those V12s are pretty simple engines so you don't need a lot of data to make them work.
BTW, there are some big Echlin books that contain data on various sensors. You'll need to know how to read them, but it's a good way to find various substitutions.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I used to have the Echlin book but that was decades ago back when I was reworking distributors. Heck, maybe it's still in the cabinet? ;-)
Yes I know the V12s are simple engines. But open the hood of a stock one and it will scare most people. Then once you get the Air conditioned fuel lines off, the Cajillion miles of hoses and vacuum off etc. suddenly they reveal just how simple they are. In fact they are simpler than the beloved small block Chevy. Well 12 of things instead of 8 but that's about it. But no pushrods or rocker arms.
They are faster to change camshafts than a typical V8. They even provide you with a stand to hold the cam sprocket.
I digress
Since the Lucas unit is fixed and only can be modified if you unsolder parts it's going away. Mega Squirt that came with the car is going in. So I'm going to change over a lot of sensors etc to GM the injectors will all be GM. (6.0 flex fuel ) Pretty sure I'll be using the Trailblazer injector line too (x2) I may even use a crank trigger instead of the Hall effect crank sensor on the back side of the distributor rotor.
*they even used SAE sizes rather than Metric. Right up to the point they were bought by that foreign car company? Ford?
I was thinking of the V12 as simple from a control perspective. It doesn't matter if it's OHV or OHC or what size bolts it uses from an engine management stand point. What matters is the cams don't change so there's no dealing with VVT. No throttle body control, no alternator control, maybe not even an idle speed valve. I don't know what your ignition system will be but you might even not have to deal with that if you're running a dizzy. It's basically a lawnmower engine.
That's how you have to generalize your thinking. Pushrods are irrelevant. What are your controls, and what are your required inputs?
Maybe not SAE, maybe they used those Imperial measurements that came from the UK in the first place.
Theres more than one Echlin book, I've seen them online as well. If you're looking to find out what the range of a temp sensor is, or what sensor has the right thread and measurement range, that's where you get it.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Oh, on line? That's helpful. I'll look for it.
Yeh, you're right, the v12 is very early EFI. Just squirt some gas in a batch and let the valves sort it out.
Ignition? Aw, let the whirly gig in the center deal with that.
Since the Lucas unit doesn't have a single chip in it. It's not adjustable. Hence the Mega Squirt.
But I've seen countless guys attempt to work with the Megasquirt without success. I've only found one guy who actually has it working.
My thinking is those Lucas sensors are all analog. The Mega squirt was designed for a GM and thus digital so if I use GM sensors they are at least speaking the same language.
You'll find that most sensors are analog. A temp sensor is just a resistor that changes value with temp. TPS is usually something similar. Engine speed is likely pulses in the Jag, which is basically digital. The MS might turn these into digital information so it can work with them but they're analog coming in.
What you're really doing is looking for sensors that are similar to the defaults, but you should be able to adjust the system to read just about anything. You just need to know what the signal looks like.
I'd approach this by starting with "what do I need to control (fuel only, apparently) and what information do I need to do it?" Probably engine temp, air measurement and a precise engine speed with a TDC indication. You can add more but that's about the minimum. Engine temp is cake, if you have a functional electric gauge you have that. Airflow is just plumbing. Engine speed and TDC means a cam sensor or a crank and a cam sensor. Heck, I think you can get away without TDC if you do batch injection.
So I have experience tuning on Haltech, AEM Infinity, EMU Black, and Megasquirt 3. Realistically, I don't think you need a tuner that specializes in one specific unit as they all boil down to the same tables and settings just with a different UI. Select a good tuner that's reputable, has a load bearing dyno (no, you can not effectively tune on inertia rolls), and preferably has a motorsports background (as the quality and refinement of their work needs to be that much higher than someone with a street only background).
kb58
UltraDork
9/30/22 4:13 p.m.
Another dimension of switching to an aftermarket ECU is how to display that information, as in, a dash. That's more $$$$ and yet more interfacing to learn. Back when I switched to an AEM Infinity ECU, they didn't offer dashes, so I had to go with another "compatible" brand. Getting the two to talk was not fun at all, as the ECU was incapable of sending several rather important system variables. It was VERY frustrating having to feed the dash both CAN messages from the ECU, and analog sensor inputs, and having to redundantly scale and offset them in the dash. Point being, expect to spend a lot of both time and money to get it all working right, whether you or someone else sets it up.
MegaSquirt has it's own custom configurable dash in Tuner Studio.
MS has to be the most versatile system because it is open, however that is a detractor.
Just because you CAN do things, doesn't mean you should use certain hardware as it is problematic.
Bosch sensors work fine, the GM sensor thing comes from the dark ages of MS1 < (don't even bother so clunky and antiquated )
MS2 is good for getting the groceries and some hot rod 4 cyl stuff, anything else or beyond getting groceries get a MS3.
I have MANY successful MS installs under my belt, the ones that failed were poor choices like a GM TBI for instance, but have won a track championship with MS.
One is a 760 Volvo with 20# boost on pump gas run by an MS2 that has to be the most fun to drive.
It is hard for a newb to sus out what's old and stale and what hardware is problematic.
First is Firmware, no one uses the B&G firmware, use Extra Firmware.
Second go on the extra forum before you spend money and put your plan up for scrutiny.
95% of MS install issues are poor installs or mistakes made (shortcuts taken).
bentwrench said:
95% of MS install issues are poor installs or mistakes made (shortcuts taken).
Megasquirt is by least expensive option by a fair margin, so people are inclined to take shortcuts usually go with an MS.
I went close to a decade on a fuel only BG code v1.01 box, daily driven, so it is certainly doable.
The RX-7 has a fuel only MS2/Extra mainly because you cannot get computer controlled ignition to start as quickly as a distributor can. I like being able to quickly bump start from a stall.
The Mini has a MS3Pro Evo on the shelf. Funny story. Alldata's wiring diagram for a WRX instrument cluster suggests that everything goes to the ECM and then the ECM gives that info to the cluster by CAN. Which is only annoying because we want a functional fuel gauge, everything else is simple gauges. I was looking into the WRX MSPNP and noticed that it didn't do any CAN outputs? Looked at the OEM wiring diagram, and found the cluster does not use CAN, it is all discrete inputs including the fuel gauge. Well that makes it easy.
Question #1: Do you like to ram yourself into a teabag?
Question #2: Does learning a new computer language as a hobby for the next 10 years sound fun?
Question #3: Do you want to DIY EVERYRHING from today forward?
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
I went close to a decade on a fuel only BG code v1.01 box, daily driven, so it is certainly doable.
I did not say they were junk, clunky works and can be very reliable.
There is still good forum support for a product that is well over 10 years old also.
