'91 C4 vs '04 GTO as track toy

Like the title says, I'm looking for a track toy. I have a $10K budget for the car. I've narrowed my choice to the two referenced cars.

The '91 Vette has 55K miles, 6-speed, perf axle, cooling and suspension. All stock, very clean. No LT1 Optispark issues.

The '04 GTO has 90K miles, 6-speed and LS1. Minor performance upgrades.

The Vette has the superior suspension, the GTO has the superior engine. I'm not looking for the fastest track car. I am looking for a car that I can drive to the track and more importantly, drive home. Sebring is my home track. I'm not that young any more and getting in and out of the Vette is a lot harder than the GTO.

I'm looking for opinions from drivers with experience in both cars. I've read threads about each car individually, but couldn't find and head to head comparisons. Either car would get SS brake lines, race brake pads and full fluid changes. Suggestions on any other required upgrades appreciated. Those necessary upgrades could influence my choice.

Thanks!

Thanks

gto all the way

GRM did a Supercar vs a Budget-car piece a few years back. The GTO was the budget alternative to a Vette. IIRC, consumables and the like were cheaper, plus, as you mentioned ingress and egress are all more favorable in the GTOs case. However, you do trade off some racecar-for-the-streets advantages the Vette has like aero, suspension, weight etc. Its a compromise to be sure, but the GTO is going to check more boxes in the drive it to the track category IMHO. Ive only ever driven a Vette, never a goat. The Vette I drove was a convertible, so getting in and out was a snap. Drop a hardtop on her, and at 6'1", it wouldve been more of a chore.

GTO. Being a former C4 owner they are the most uncomfortable car to sit in for more than 30 minutes at a time if you have feet that are larger than a size 7 boys. They're hot, they're hard to get into/out of and if you're over 5'10" wearing a helmet is an interesting trick with the top on.

Now... with that said, the C4 is an absolute ball to drive hard. Being so close to the rear axle you get plenty of warning when it starts to step out and keeping a large slip angle is pretty easy. The brakes are fantastic (with the Z51 setup) and overall grip is great. Bearings do not like the abuse and OEM bearings are all gone so you're left with aftermarket crap that would likely be OK for 3-4 events on street tires but any form of serious grip will have you scrambling for spares on a regular basis.

If it were me.... I'd be looking for an older Z51 C5. They're getting down in price and they click all the right buttons.

In reply to Bobzilla:

I have not seen a C5 around here under $10K, that I would drive on the street let alone track. A C5 that cheap is definitely an automatic and has a rebuilt title at best.

I had a 1988 C4 for track days. Car handled well and was easy to drive. Mine was a roadster, so I can't comment on helmet room. Found the car comfortable otherwise though. A '91 will have the L98 engine, cheap to fix, but it won't break.

I strongly recommend a C5 front brake upgrade though. It's not very expensive if you get reman calipers instead of new. The pads and rotors are cheaper(and bigger) than the J55 C4 stuff. Use brake ducts for the front and you'll never have any issues.

This is a tough call. The GTO is the better driving car for sure, but the C4 is probably a better track experience. Consumables will be a wash (Vette will have more expensive tires, but less expensive nearly everything else). The GTO has a pretty decent suspension, but it will require more mods to handle like the C4. Depending on which C4, the GTO will also be outright faster.

I'd say go drive both with your helmet on and see which one fits you better.

Neither. The C4 is too old and a C5 is such a quantum leap forward as a track car base that I couldn't spend the cash on the C4.

The GTO is too heavy and is extremely limited in the size of tires you can run.

Get an E36 M3 or an E36 325is.

I'd save up a bit more for a C5 as well.

I had an 87 Z51 4+1 Corvette and it was an absolute riot. Might not be the fastest car out there but you're very connected and its a very visceral driving experience. C4 all the way!

What type of racing are you planning on doing? I vote GTO regardless of the answer, but definitely would rather have a C5 vette instead of a GTO for track work.

I've had both. Provided you aren't too long in the torso, the C4 is an easy pick.

Consider changing the Corvette's steering rack for a Z51-spec unit to get a faster ratio if you find the steering slow. This is more of a consideration for autox than track use.

The GTO has less tire and fewer tire options. Weight is a concern as well. The suspension will unfortunately need maintenance and upgrades for track use - '04s especially are tough on struts, strut bearings and suspension components generally They also have smaller brakes that beg for an '05-6 swap. Suspension goodies are available but costly.

Both cars benefit from a shifter upgrade, the goat moreso. The throws on the C4's are a bit long, is really all. The GTO uses rubber isolators to reduce NVH, with a great loss of precision. Even with practice, I often missed upshifts in the GTO before installing a short-stick mod. A full-on shifter upgrade offers even greater improvement but is more expensive than for a C4.

By far, the GTO surpasses the Corvette as a GT touring car. If the C4 has sport seats, and you are not too wide across the bottom, they are excellent for track use, surpassing the GTO's in lateral support, but the GTO's seats are more comfortable generally. The base C4 seats are not especially comfortable or supportive.

The Corvette's torquey L98 will pull like crazy down low but does not make power at higher revs like the LS will. You will definitely not be chasing down competitors on Sebring's back straight in it. However, the Corvette will be far faster through the corners. While neither car is light by Miata standards, the Corvette is a far more capable dance partner. With the L98 it is a momentum car that will reward finding the best lines and maintaining the most speed. The GTO will be much more point-and-shoot, giving up speed through corners and making it up once the wheels are pointing straight again.

Drive both, see how they fit you, and take your driving style into consideration. Whichever you choose, happy hooning.

I do DE events primarily at Sebring. I have tracked my FRS there so I know something about momentum cars and not chasing down anyone on the back straight! I know the L98 isn't that powerful but I'm used to being relatively slow. It is fairly bulletproof in stock form and there a a million cheap performance upgrades if I ever felt the need. From my observation, the faster you go, the more stuff wears out or breaks. The wheel bearing issue is of some concern however. I was not aware of that and will have to investigate.

I was not a fan of the GTO seats. More like a love seat. Did not feel like they would provide any lateral support and the cockpit is so wide there isn't much bracing there either. The one I just looked at had oil film and dirt all over the motor and the shifter felt like stirring pudding. The seatback would not tilt, and it had a crummy repaint. I'm giving that particular GTO a pass.

I owned a DD C6 and have driven a C5. They aren't in the toy budget. You got to stick to your budget 'cause once it starts creeping up, it's hard to stop. There is always something a little better for just a little more money...

To the BMW lovers, I gave serious thought to doing a E21 320i or an E30 325is. I've owned an E46 330i ZHP. I'm selling a 944 Turbo because the costs are just too high, first to make the car track worthy and second to keep it on the track with consumables. I know the BMWs are far less costly than the Porsche, but they are not in the same league with the Vette.

In reply to maj75:

If you think a 951 has too high of track costs, a GTO or a C4 won't be any better!!!

There's really only one answer left...

You're talking a 500 pound difference between the two cars, the Corvette is going to be way more fun on a road course but the GTO will be more comfy getting there. It's entirely personal preference at that point, overweight muscle car versus sports car.

But I would go C5, and I've seen a number of manuals in that price range. I don't know where you're at but I would be checking this one out if I was in the market:

http://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/4112770111.html

FWIW, Timken/SKF bearings are good quality. You can save money on the fronts by buying a 4th-gen Firebird or Camaro bearing and modifying the bolt holes slightly. I did a write up many years ago which is saved as a sticky in the C4 tech section of the CorvetteForum. The parts are otherwise identical, all you do is wallow out the threads on the bearing to change the direction of the mounting bolts. How often you need to replace them depends in part on whether you run stickies or streets. It's an infrequent bit of maintenace for autox regardless of tire, but I can't speak to road course use.

I ran Timkens and cheap Kumho street tires (275's). I needed new bearings after 6 events and 3k miles of street driving.

In reply to dculberson: I'm in South Florida. Not one manual C5 under $10K in Florida. The auto ones have 150K miles on them...

I wouldn't be too scared of miles on a corvette.

In reply to Javelin:

I've had 3 Miata. 1990, 1992 and 1999. I really love the cars but they are a tight fit for me. I really can't safely fit under a roll bar, and I can't even get into a Spec Miata with a cage. All accademic, because if I wanted to track an open car I would have kept my '00 Boxster S. There isn't another car anywhere near the price that will do what a Boxster S can on the track. However, it's open so it's not going to be my track toy.

As i read the thread i kept coming back to 'neither'. They both seem too full of compromises.

The Gto is heavy, soft, you dont like the seats, it's limited on tire size, and has suspension durability issues.

The C4 is a pain to get into, a pain to be in, a pain to get out of, space-limited as far as helmet room, and while it's probably much superior to the GTO as a track car, i personally cant get excited about it.

Was there anything else on your list that you had crossed out but might be worth taking another look at? I would consider the e36 m3 although you weren't specific about how you felt about your previous 330 ownership.

How about a MKIII Supra? They are very well built, not hard to make fast, not much heavier then a 'Vette, lighter then GTO, easy to work on, easy to get in and out of, will easily fit big guys and cheap.

If I had a GTO I'd probably track it, but I'm not sure I'd go through the trouble of buying one for that job.

Vigo wrote: Was there anything else on your list that you had crossed out but might be worth taking another look at? I would consider the e36 m3 although you weren't specific about how you felt about your previous 330 ownership.

I liked the 330i except that it was a 4 door. I would have traded my 944 Turbo straight up for an E36 M3. I can't find any decent ones around here. Tons of convertibles (violates the prime directive regarding lack of roof) and 4 door automatics. They have a bunch of issues with waterpumps, radiators, vanos, vacuum leaks, not to mention subframes that detach themselves from the body. I have a couple of friends who DE their E30 M3 and E36 M3 so I would have a good resource there.

If one showed up that hadn't been beaten like an old mule, I might give it a try.

As I said, I have an E21 320i and an E30 325is locally that would make tasty track cars with a little work and probably keep the budget well under $15K. My hard budget is $10K for the car and $5K for the prep.

93EXCivic wrote: How about a MKIII Supra? They are very well built, not hard to make fast, not much heavier then a 'Vette, lighter then GTO, easy to work on, easy to get in and out of, will easily fit big guys and cheap.

Had a 70K mile '87 Turbo Supra with the 5 speed. Nice GT car, but I can't imagine tracking one. They weigh a bloody ton, brakes are marginal and there is a lot more drag racing support than road racing. Don't get me started on the crispy wiring harness/connectors that are irreplaceable... I have yet to see one at Homestead or Sebring.