a few autocross questions

Currently road race, which i love but have always been interested in autocrossing. Trying to learn more about the local/regional scene and what the costs are. Had the following questions:

Curious what people spend autocrossing a year of competition in the street classes (looking for a round about, i know it depends on the car/class). Do you need to constantly buying the newer model, or once you add all allowable upgrades you should have a competitive platform? The Street classes, on average how much over the car do the allowed upgrades cost? Anyone ever stop road racing and enjoy autocrossing more? and the finaly one (sorry havent done any research) is everyone invited to the nationals and how much on average do you usually spend for the week (guessing its cheaper than the runoffs lol). 

Figure the lower the class, the higher the churn to stay in a competitive model car.  If you're the sort that wants to buy a car and flog it for 2-3 years and buys something else, that usually works out fine.  But if you want the same car and some stability, consider stepping into something SP or higher.

Nationals is open to everyone and as much about the party/experience as it is the driving.  It can be done for under a grand.

I think of autocross as the ADHD of the two where it's always different and you have a very brief time to get it as right as possible.

Track work is more OCD where the corners never change and you have a near infinite number of times to get each element exactly right.

Definitely try out some autocross. 

So, some answers.

As usual, it depends. 

For a year of autocross, I figure event entry, travel, food and, for me, a set of two of tires. Tires can be the big cost, and it can vary widely. My STS-class Miata got a full year out of Falkens before they heat-cycled out. A big car running Yokohamas on concrete will go through more tires. Big expenses you likely won’t encounter: engine rebuilds and body repair.

To run at the top of the national scene in a Street class, yes, there is the general trend that new replaces old–not every year but as a trend over time. You can see it in the results. Locally, though, not nearly as much. Also, there are exceptions. Look at E Street where the ’99 Miata and MR2 Spyder still dominate at Solo Nats. Or look at A Street where a 2007 Corvette Z06 won. 

For Street upgrade costs, figure tires, shocks, brake pads and, likely, an anti-roll bar or two. Possibly wheels as well. 

To run at Solo Nats, you just need to be an SCCA member. 

David S. Wallens said:

Look at E Street where the ’99 Miata and MR2 Spyder still dominate at Solo Nats.

I joke that the E in E/Street stands for Economical. Buy an NB or an MR2 Spyder, install 200tw tires, and you've got a car that can likely get you pretty high in the standings. My first year with my MR2 Spyder and it just has wheels with 205/50R15 Bridgestones and a front sway bar and I'm sitting in fourth overal, higher than any of the previous 8 years of autocross in another car.

If looking to do a Street-class autocross car on a budget, a 1999 Miata or 2003 MR2 for E Street would be worth a look: smaller tires and a lower buy-in. Added bonus: a really fun car to run. These are also healthy classes, so I don’t expect the SCCA adding something that would upset the status quo. 

Any interest in a slightly modified car Solo Spec Coupe or one of the new Club Spec classes? 

NickD said:

David S. Wallens said:

Look at E Street where the ’99 Miata and MR2 Spyder still dominate at Solo Nats.

I joke that the E in E/Street stands for Economical. Buy an NB or an MR2 Spyder, install 200tw tires, and you've got a car that can likely get you pretty high in the standings. My first year with my MR2 Spyder and it just has wheels with 205/50R15 Bridgestones and a front sway bar and I'm sitting in fourth overal, higher than any of the previous 8 years of autocross in another car.

Ha, was typing the same thing at the same time. 

So, back to E Street. It’s right there in the rules that class stability is important. But I wonder what will happen when NB Miatas become 30 years old. :) 

David S. Wallens said:

If looking to do a Street-class autocross car on a budget, a 1999 Miata or 2003 MR2 for E Street would be worth a look: smaller tires and a lower buy-in. Added bonus: a really fun car to run. These are also healthy classes, so I don’t expect the SCCA adding something that would upset the status quo. 

Any interest in a slightly modified car Solo Spec Coupe or one of the new Club Spec classes? 

I would also add that the E/S cars can grow into a bunch of other classes where they are also competitive if/when someone gets bored in E/S. Miatas and Spyders have all been fairly good in STS, STR, C/SP, SSM, and XB.

David S. Wallens said:

So, back to E Street. It’s right there in the rules that class stability is important. But I wonder what will happen when NB Miatas become 30 years old. :) 

I wrote to the SCCA to suggest moving the NC1 there. It's awful in C/Street and STR and no one really runs them in classes higher than that. It's still heavier, wider, has a longer wheelbase, and has a worse power-to-weight ratio than the NB and Spyder, despite being more powerful and accomodating a larger tire. I got hit with a classic "Thanks for your input" and "We feel the NC1 is properly classed at this current time", which I would disagree with on account of no one really running them in C/S

David S. Wallens said:

So, back to E Street. It’s right there in the rules that class stability is important. But I wonder what will happen when NB Miatas become 30 years old. :) 

This page always gives me so much anxiety that the classes aren't in alpha order.

But, yeah, Street can be weird in that there's both too many and too few classes, but that's one of the complications when you try to create parity by applying the same ruleset to different cars. Most classes then become a flavor of the month affair, with variable amounts of stability.

ES is really kind of a success story here, though, as you can still win with a cheap, fairly available car on affordable tires. You don't need a unicorn or to be constantly cycling into the current model.

Trying to think of a reason why the classes aren’t in alphabetical order.

You might be interested in the new spec miata(not the w2w class) and spec mustang classses. It has the benefit of giving you a track class to run as well.

Street class is pretty cheap since there is very little you can do. Buy whatever the class favorite is and off you go. Depending on your region schedule 1-2 set of tires. Entry fees are around $60 for me and minimal fuel. Compared to track wear, its almost nonexistent.

The big x factor is just when classes get shifted around. Could be a new car gets released and is now the top dog in the class. Could be a car gets moved down from a higher classes and now its the top dog. SCCA seems to want to class newish and  popular cars favorably. I'd be surprised if they buried the miata somehow for example. Brand new cars might take a season or two to shake out, so can be risky if you want a class leader.

I like doing it once in awhile. I think as a track person first you may find the seat time ratio a little unpleasant. I'd highly recommend seeing if there is a school in your area. You'll get a lot more seat time and get a feel for the differences. I'd just bring whatever you have before you think about buying anything.

I started off in autocross and went to time trials at race tracks and (almost) never looked back. I never did a national type competition--just local. Sometimes I won the day in my class, but usually not--didn't matter to me either way. Autocross is a ton of fun, and you get thrown out on the course and are made to chase cones, or help at grid, or whatever. Everybody works. That's super cool. You also get a ton of time to just hang out and make friends. I never really felt like I got enough time behind the wheel though. More time than drag racing, but significantly less than road racing. We'd get four runs, usually... maybe a minute or so a piece? That's about four minutes of track time. If you're slow enough, you could almost match that on a Friday night at your local drag strip.

Autocross, for me, was significanly cheaper. I was just out of college and had no money to throw at motorsports, so scraping enough money together to do an HPDE or Time Trial event was harder than finding 40 bucks and signing up for an autocross. I ran a $100 Miata that I initially built up for the 2008 Challenge (but never ran there), so I had, you know... $2,008 in it. Including the tires that I ran at all of my autocross events. If I wanted to be more competitive, I would have done all of the modifications I was allowed to in the... probably H-Stock class that the car was in, but I didn't. Just Falken RT615 tires and some cheap shocks. Want to win at the national level? It's probably going to cost more than the pennies I threw at it.

I did get a chance to go back to my old club and do an event maybe two years ago in my A4. It was a good time to get back out there, and boy did I feel out of place--like a newbie in knowledge and skill, but like I'd been doing it for a long time and should have known better, too. But people helped me out and I had a good time. Try it out!

i ran the NHRA tour for a while when i first started drag racing, it was fun ,glad i did it. The four minutes of seat time obviously isnt great but i also understand its about meeting new people and hanging out with like minded enthusiasts. 

So in road racing we have regionals and super tour major events where the class entries are larger. Are autox events only local events or do regions have bigger events as well?

AC.SRF16 said:

So in road racing we have regionals and super tour major events where the class entries are larger. Are autox events only local events or do regions have bigger events as well?

Most regions don't hold like a divisional meet, but there are Pro Solos and National Tours held at different venues around the country. In ProSolo, drivers start side-by-side, drag race style with a tree and everything, and then race on mirror-image courses. In the Solo National Tour, drivers compete on a different course each day and get three runs on each course, kind of like Nationals.

In reply to AC.SRF16 :

regions don't, there is an scca national tour and pro solos

David S. Wallens said:

So, back to E Street. It’s right there in the rules that class stability is important. But I wonder what will happen when NB Miatas become 30 years old. :)

They'll do what is usually done... Write in a Miata-centric exception.

See also - "Very affordable older sports cars with an emphasis on low cost entry and acceptable availability. Class stability is a priority."

A car I like just got moved to G Street so I am thinking about prepping for autocross next year.

If I wanted to attempt a competitive finish at nationals (midpack for me), this is what I would do.  Max car prep involves shocks, rear sway bar, factory camber bolts/camber hubs, a lightweight exhaust, brake pads, and some alignment work.  This is pretty car dependent but I would expect around $4K in parts if you don't go crazy with the shocks.  A set of 200TW tires on lightweight wheels is $1500-2000 depending on the car.  If you want to stay competitive in the rain, you also need a good set of 340TW tires (Michelin PS4/5, Continental DW) probably mounted on stock wheels.

Event costs vary but this is what I budget:

• Local event: $125: ($50 entry, $50 gas, $25 food)
• Regional event: $500+hotel ($150 entry, $200 gas, $200 food, 2-3 day hotel stay)
• Nationals: ~$2-5K: Costs here really depend on how long your drive is to nationals and whether you are towing.  For me it would be a 22 hour drive each way and 6-7 hotel nights.
• Tires last for about 100 runs in my camber limited car and events average 5 runs.  You could get away with one set of tires for the year but I would probably buy a second set for nationals.

So to prep a car, run 15 locals, 2 regionals, and the national championship (on fresh tires), the total cost would be around $10-11K the first year.  Paying event and tires costs on subsequent years would be $5-7K not counting the car cost or depreciation.

Nationals isn't realistic for me because it is at the beginning of the school year.  To compete locally, I would buy a set of 200TW tires, wheels, and a rear sway bar.  I should have 99% of the fun of a full effort build.  If the tire rollover is bad enough, I will either get camber plates and bump up to street touring or buy the expensive crash parts.

In my experience, rally is fun because the dirt changes a little bit every time you drive the road.  Wheel to wheel is fun because the track changes as you drive around other cars.  Autocross is fun because the course literally changes.  In each one, you are chasing perfection but perfection is a moving target.  Maybe autocross scratches the same itch, maybe it doesn't.  The event cost is similar a stage rally or about 2 lemons/chump races per year.  The difference is you are competing 25 days a year instead of 4.

Here's some recent experience that might be helpful. I bought a 2014 Ford Fiesta ST in 2014 for $19K. I was able to get a full season out of a set of tires, running with 2 clubs and a lot of events. Figure $250 per tire, so $1000 a year in tires. Entry fees averaged $30/event, so another  $600 in entry fees.  Food and gas was another few hundred. It was the car to have in HS and I won a lot of stuff.  Over 3 years, I bought a set of RFP1 wheels, upgraded the shocks to Konis, added a rear sway bar, swapped out the brake pads, and threw in a K&N filter. 

After 3 years, I threw some money at the car and went to STH. Coil-overs, front sway bar, cold air intake, a tune, and some misc stuff.  The car was competative in STH and I did well for another 3 years. Tires still lasted a season, fees were the same, gas and food remained consistent. I sold the car for $10K, probably could have got more but didn't want the hassle of selling it myself. 

In 2020, I changed to an Elantra N and went to DS.  For $35K, the car is AMAZING out of the box, great for track nights and autocrossing without any mods needed. I picked up a set of lighter wheels for $1K, and ran my first year on one set of tires for another $1K. In year 2, I added a rear bar and upgraded the brake pads, about $800. In year three (2024), I am running more track nights, so I went through 2 sets of front tire and 1 set of rears. I run different tires front and rear, so I don't rotate front-back. 

I have not gone to Nationals, despite much prodding from my friends, so I can't speak to that, other than saying that if you can go, you should. 

ojannen said:

A car I like just got moved to G Street so I am thinking about prepping for autocross next year.

If I wanted to attempt a competitive finish at nationals (midpack for me), this is what I would do.  Max car prep involves shocks, rear sway bar, factory camber bolts/camber hubs, a lightweight exhaust, brake pads, and some alignment work.  This is pretty car dependent but I would expect around $4K in parts if you don't go crazy with the shocks.  A set of 200TW tires on lightweight wheels is $1500-2000 depending on the car.  If you want to stay competitive in the rain, you also need a good set of 340TW tires (Michelin PS4/5, Continental DW) probably mounted on stock wheels.

Event costs vary but this is what I budget:

• Local event: $125: ($50 entry, $50 gas, $25 food)
• Regional event: $500+hotel ($150 entry, $200 gas, $200 food, 2-3 day hotel stay)
• Nationals: ~$2-5K: Costs here really depend on how long your drive is to nationals and whether you are towing.  For me it would be a 22 hour drive each way and 6-7 hotel nights.
• Tires last for about 100 runs in my camber limited car and events average 5 runs.  You could get away with one set of tires for the year but I would probably buy a second set for nationals.

So to prep a car, run 15 locals, 2 regionals, and the national championship (on fresh tires), the total cost would be around $10-11K the first year.  Paying event and tires costs on subsequent years would be $5-7K not counting the car cost or depreciation.

Nationals isn't realistic for me because it is at the beginning of the school year.  To compete locally, I would buy a set of 200TW tires, wheels, and a rear sway bar.  I should have 99% of the fun of a full effort build.  If the tire rollover is bad enough, I will either get camber plates and bump up to street touring or buy the expensive crash parts.

In my experience, rally is fun because the dirt changes a little bit every time you drive the road.  Wheel to wheel is fun because the track changes as you drive around other cars.  Autocross is fun because the course literally changes.  In each one, you are chasing perfection but perfection is a moving target.  Maybe autocross scratches the same itch, maybe it doesn't.  The event cost is similar a stage rally or about 2 lemons/chump races per year.  The difference is you are competing 25 days a year instead of 4.

I ran GS nationally in a Focus ST for several years and this is a good estimate. The nice thing about GS cars is that they typically have enough space inside to bring your extra wheels and tires. Smaller street class cars either tow a tire trailer or get towed on a trailer. 

The other street class trick is to try to time the cycle such that you buy the car to have right after or shortly after it is moved to the new class. ES Miata/MR2 is one exception to that, but talking to folks in the class and keeping an eye on fastrack publications let you know what proposals are out there for the coming year or even the year after that. Some classes have 2 or more cars that can get it done. If they're dissimilar in how they make their speed, conditions and course design can have an effect. If being disadvantaged to your competition sometimes is going to be a large source of frustration, focus on classes where it's really only 1 car, like CS (or 2 cars that are very similar, like FS).  

Another thing to consider in all this is that with autocross, the marginal benefits of certain improvements/modifications, especially within the limits of street class are relative low vs road racing. Ex: wheel weight, sure, we all want light wheels but saving a pound there isn't going to make as much of a difference on an autocross run as it will on a lap on track (not to mention the compound effect of multiple laps in a race). Same thing for a few hp difference - matters on a track much more than autocross. What does become more important is how forgiving the car needs to be such that you can get at/near the limit consistently in just a few runs each event. 

Then there's tires. Some pointy-end folks buy multiple sets and test a bunch. Others pick a proven choice and stick with it. Thankfully there's really only 2 choices right now at the top of the 200tw game for auto-x, but when new stuff is introduced it can make last year's tire obsolete. IIRC they moved the cut-off date up from 4/1 to 1/1, but still if you bought fresh tires for nationals then planned to use them the early part of the next season for important events, there's a chance they'll be 2nd tier. 

In my most competitive years (2013-2016), after the initial investment for STF (we miss you STF!) of coilovers, sway bar, intake, exhaust and tune for a non-normal car, I knew I would burn through one set of tires a season, and would take a new set to nationals to use for the following year. Rinse and repeat. I always brought my lunches, drinks etc to local/regional. My most expensive year was being at Wilmington twice and nationals (hotels), but I drove the car so it was just hotels ~$100/night, entry fee ($40-100). I think my last year of solo nats in 2016 the entire season cost me ~$2000. 

YMMV, I have always ran street drivable vehicles in ST classes, usually small-ish (sub 3k lbs) and on 225 width 200TW tires on the widest wheels allowed.