Thredsurection. Random Friday afternoon insanity musings.
So this thread has been mulling over in the back of my mind since we talked about it here a few months ago. I was also thinking about it while at Indy last weekend.
Let's look at this slightly differently. I think we established that it's not really practical for a bunch or organized amateurs to build a car for any recognized National or International road racing series. But what could a bunch of GRM's do to enter a top line series?
This is quite an interesting article on the Cahill Racing team in (dark days of the split)IRL racing in the late 80's and early 90's that really got the mental juices going about a small enthusiast team taking on the big boys on a shoestring against the odds. They managed as high as 3rd at Phoenix in 2000 and an 11th at Indy in 2001. Now I’m sure he was receiving some of the hundreds of millions that Tony George is supposed to have siphoned into the small teams in a desperate attempt at killing open wheel racing, but still, they did it.
Say I win the mega millions tonight (difficult without a ticket I know) and decided that it's way too late for fantasy of being the next Nigel Mansell, although I've got the whining and complaining down! and instead decide to live out one of my other fantasy’s (well, the ones I'll talk about in public) of being the next Rodger Penske.
Do you think if I lost my mind and bought a race shop and one or two used Dallara DW12's it would be possible to get a bunch of you guys and gals together, say half a dozen or so full time and a few more part timers and convince Chevy or Honda to lease us engines and go Indy car racing? I know we've got people on here with pro racing experience. We could choose a couple of up and coming open wheel pro drivers, one British and one American and offer them a free drive for one year if they paid their own travel and covered self-inflicted damage. Many (most) drivers are having to pay big money to buy their way into Indy Car, would anyone want to risk their reputation on going with a bunch of unproven yahoo's for a shot at an essentially free drive? We keep hearing of could have been drivers if only given the chance, but were unable to raise the $$’s for the next step.
Would Indy car even allow us in or would they say go down the ladder to Lights, Pro Mazda, USF2000?
What would it cost? Some interpretation and guestemation says the costs for a full season are approx.:
US F2000 $200-275K
Pro Mazda $400-600K
Indy Lights $1M+ with the new format introduced last year with cheaper engines, tires etc.
Indy car $3M+++
The first three are to run competent efforts, the Indy car one is to get on the grid.
I think one of the biggest issues with modern open wheel racing is it has no idea how to promote itself. I say that some of the key people on the team would have nothing to do with prepping or running the car, they would purely be out promoting the team. Social media, TV, print, schools, youth organizations, charity events anything and everything to get the word out. Tow a car in the Detroit thanksgiving Parade with the spirit of Detroit on the side! Make a film about the insanity of what I/we/you were doing and let it be seen everywhere for free. Beg Netflix to take it for free then spread the word on every automotive forum and website around the world. Get the name out then go all out begging for sponsorship from 1,000’s of sources for later years.
Disclaimer: I'm making this post only because I think my 2 cents is worth contributing. I don't really watch racing on TV or know anything at all about classing and the money-politics about getting into the big leagues.
Here in the states, even seeing all the examples posted earlier, it's a royal pain in the ass to get into racing at all unless you live in one of the epicenters. I think that is a bigger pushback than even the money, rules, vehicles, etc. Lack of opportunity to even go out and fail.
For the first 25 years I lived where I am now, ALL there was for racing that anyone actually knew about was low end Nascar at Jennerstown, and crappy drag strip in New Alexandria, and I guess Pitt Race, but until VERY recently, even me who WANTED to get into racing didn't even know about it. I have now found out there is 1 dirt track, and a smaller Nascar style track also relatively close, and they both have pretty much the same rules. You're looking at a $50k(after safety and stuff) vehicle just to get on the field. That's just not realistic for a lot of people who want to do this kind of stuff, particularly if they've been doing it on the streets and have had to pay for it already.
SCCA and NASA, and Rally America with what they can, aren't even really getting the word out like the could be to let people know they can actually go and race. My autocross region comes to mind, 3 counties pushing 2 million possible people, and yet our largest turnout so far this season was 24, with me being the only new person. Apparently, track distance from home doesn't factor in to the "suggested" region they tell you, because I found completely by a accident, my region that's roughly 30 minutes from home. My suggested, and everyone else who lives in my county, area to race is at Pitt Race, which is 2-3 hours EACH WAY for 10 minutes of seat time. That pushes far more people away than it brings out. It got to the point I was going to say screw the SCCA and sanctions and just start doing small things with local businesses to try to draw up interest and get people competing somewhere level and legal instead of just talking E36 M3 and hopping on the highway to run it out.
Particularly though, I hope to someday drive stage rally. Pennsylvania gets the Waste Management Rally every year, and that's ALL I've been able to find on ANY organizations website for stage rally in the entire state. This means that I have to move to somewhere else entirely or tow for days on end to get to events, and both options are prohibitively expensive. Especially knowing that I'm not nearly as good of a driver as I used to think I was, it's easier just to burn money in the grill. There is rallycross not 2 hours away thanks to the DC region of SCCA, but good luck finding any information about it at all unless you're already looking at the DC region.
Chump, LeMons, give me hope that wheel to wheel stays accessible to the "average" gear head, but honestly, the safety gear for the cars that isn't tied to that pretty $500 budget prices it out of reach, at least as a wannabe amateur racer.
It surprised me at first when I found out Dave Mirra, Tanner Foust, Bucky Lasek, and others are Nascar and or rally drivers now. A strange jump from BMX bikes and skateboards, but I don't think they'd have ever had the chance without all the money they made being on top of the world in their fields back in the 90s.
You guys have mentioned building vehicles in the garage and taking them to the track, for anything mainstream or high end, that's just out of the question. you guys knowing far more about it than me, have already gone over rules, manufacturing costs, R&D, etc. that means the closest I'll get to the running the Indy 500 is on Forza.
On the other coast, when I was living 45 minutes from Sonoma/Infineon, Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, and everything else in the bay area, outside of the drivers, no one really had any info at all. No one, generally, could tell you about track nights, or prep levels, or even what cars you could run. Just "Oh theres a WTCC race this weekend" or "F3 was just here, there's racing". Sure, racing to go watch, but how about to compete? I can't build an F3 in my garage and just show up.
TL;DR: Exposure and access to information seems more a problem than even getting vehicles or having the skills. When even official sanctioning organizations seem to be pushing people away or trying to draw crowds instead of filling grids, it put's a damper on it for everyone that would rather sit on grid that in the stands.
I know this is a bit of a tangent from the discussion, but maybe not, even though it is a critique of the forums here. But with the size of the forum membership and magazine readership .... why don't we have a sub-forum dedicated to actual racing events/series/participation? The "Grassroots Motorsports" forum does have more of a general purpose feel to it, and that's the closest we have.
What would it take to have a dedicated "Actual Racing Activities" sub-forum here to have some discussions about actually grass roots racing?
-Hans
In SCCA Club Racing the sports racers, P1 and P2 are near the pointy end of lowest lap times along with formula Atlantic and formula B or 1000. I campaign a P2 car about as cheaply as possible while being remotely competitive. What it takes is a burning desire to do it, because the time and infrastructure required are ridiculous. I already had a machine and fab shop and lots of composites experience. I bought the only set of body molds in North America and made my own molds for everything else. I built jigs and fixtures to make suspension uprights and spent an unimaginable amount of time when the old CSR class became P2 and had to find a way to legally integrate the mandated restrictors while gaining torque and favorably moving power below peak. There are still a few oddball/old/flat-bottom 90's cars in P2 but more and more it's all Stohrs and Wests, which start at $35k for a decent used car and it goes up quickly from there.
It's possible to build a car from scratch and win. See Scott "Mister Payday Loans" Tucker and his $1,000,000 quest to win the SCCA runoffs in the DSR class and be the first under 2'00" at Road America. And he bought West Cars (the company) rather than doing it from a clean sheet.
What about the drivers? Couldn't there be a grassroots movement to identify emerging talent and foster their skills? There are potential top-tier drivers out there going unrecognized. I see really talented kids come into autocross limited by budget that could get a leg up and move further up the ladder, but it just becomes a hobby. Why not a GRM scholarship for emerging talent? If we can't build a grassroots race car, why not build a grassroots race driver?
Im hearing a lot about how the tracks are few and far between. I live in a very rural area of Ohio. Any form of organized racing is at least an hour away. That sucks, but it's a supply and demand thing. Entry level drag racing is probably the cheapest form of racing you can get into. In the 60s when lots of people were drag racing, there were two dragstrips within 15 minutes of my house, also a dirt track ten miles from here. When the cars stop showing up the tracks go away. If it takes 30 cars to make it worth opening the gate's on Saturday, and the closest track is getting 32, would you build a track to try to compete? Of course not. There isn't enough demand. Maybe we can change that. Take a buddy to autocross or rallycross or the dragstrip. Show them how cheap it is to get started. When I bought my rallycross car I would tell people I bought a racecar and they thought I went crazy and mortgaged my families future. Then I told them it was $100, and all I need is a helmet. They had no idea such an option existed. So my point is get more people to show up and pay the entry fee and more opportunities will open up.
As to the question of could normal guys be competitive at top level racing of we had an unlimited budget? I don't think so. If I practiced basketball and worked out ten hours a day, and had been doing so since I was a kid, I still wouldn't be able to beat an nba player one on one. The talent gap is too wide. I don't know if iroc races are still a thing, but say it were something like that. Everyone gets identical cars. You get to race against Helio, and Tony Stewart, Jimmy Johnson, Ryan Hunter-Reay, all the best. You may turn some good laps, but to go hours all out, without making mistakes, and still be able to make moves to pass the best in the business. There is a reason why people pay big bucks to watch these guys on Sunday.
I've played poker against some great players. Even when you have the cards your money disappears and you walk away wondering what happened. Don't dismiss the talent gap.
In reply to johnnie:
Let's reframe this question.
what is the motivation to build a grassroots driver pool? these race series aren't charities, and although many of the people who run them (racing leagues) love the sport, if the money dried up most would be gone in a second.
this is a business. No different from the NFL, MLB, MLS or anything. The advantage of this business is they get money coming and going.
The fans pay, the drivers pay, the teams pay. Everyone pays.
motomoron wrote: In SCCA Club Racing the sports racers, P1 and P2 are near the pointy end of lowest lap times along with formula Atlantic and formula B or 1000. I campaign a P2 car about as cheaply as possible while being remotely competitive. What it takes is a burning desire to do it, because the time and infrastructure required are ridiculous. I already had a machine and fab shop and lots of composites experience. I bought the only set of body molds in North America and made my own molds for everything else. I built jigs and fixtures to make suspension uprights and spent an unimaginable amount of time when the old CSR class became P2 and had to find a way to legally integrate the mandated restrictors while gaining torque and favorably moving power below peak. There are still a few oddball/old/flat-bottom 90's cars in P2 but more and more it's all Stohrs and Wests, which start at $35k for a decent used car and it goes up quickly from there. It's possible to build a car from scratch and win. See Scott "Mister Payday Loans" Tucker and his $1,000,000 quest to win the SCCA runoffs in the DSR class and be the first under 2'00" at Road America. And he bought West Cars (the company) rather than doing it from a clean sheet. The whole, sick, amazing story...
Thanks for the link. I've listened to it and it's worthy of a whole new thread I'll start. I'd heard some of the story before, but that was fascinating.
You'll need to log in to post.
