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z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/6/18 2:32 p.m.

I drove an STi and SS 1LE last December, and I've been really interested in the '19 ND with the updated engine. I haven't driven one yet, but I've driven NA and NBs on track, and had an NC as a daily for a while (which is a great DD)........I have no doubt I'd thoroughly enjoy it.

 

I was looking around at other stuff just for fun, and found a base '18 Mustang GT, 6spd new at the dealer just a few miles away.

Now it's not the PP Lvl 2, but it's also nearly $20k cheaper.

I figure you could very easily make a car capable of handling track days safely and reliably for much less than that $20k difference.

 

How would you build one?

buzzboy
buzzboy Reader
10/6/18 3:18 p.m.

Vorshalg is kinda doing what you're talking about, but taking it to an extreme. They mentioned that it's 10k worth of dealer options to get the good PP2 seats!?

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8324

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
10/6/18 3:19 p.m.

If buying new, '19 PP1 with Magnaride.  Add sticky tires and drive it.

There are some discussions on the Mustang forums of the diff overheating with track use, but a clear problem/solution has yet to be defined.

We have a '17 PP1 manual which will be seeing some HPDE use.  My plans include some light suspension work (springs, shocks, camber plates, and a bracing kit for the IRS cradle) and a set of wheels/tires for the track.  And that's pretty much it.

The Performance Pack cars include not only bigger brakes, stiffer suspension and more rubber, but have additional chassis bracing and different programming in the stability control.  IMHO, a PP car is a good buy over a standard GT.  I do think the PP1 is a better value than the PP2... the gap is smaller between them than the gap to the standard GT, and most of it is the tires on the PP2.

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
10/6/18 3:29 p.m.

In reply to buzzboy :

That looks like an interesting thread, thanks for posting.  yes  

One other thing to note, the stock Mustang PP wheels are HEAVY...  Using a square setup usually requires a spacer in front because of the very different offsets.  Also, the stock rear is almost 28" tall, so most track options will radically shorten the gearing.  With the 3.73s that come in the PP cars I can already start in 2nd if not going uphill...

Stock PP rear tire (275/40-19) next to a Miata tire (225/45-15)...

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/6/18 4:04 p.m.
Rodan said:

If buying new, '19 PP1 with Magnaride.  Add sticky tires and drive it.

There are some discussions on the Mustang forums of the diff overheating with track use, but a clear problem/solution has yet to be defined.

We have a '17 PP1 manual which will be seeing some HPDE use.  My plans include some light suspension work (springs, shocks, camber plates, and a bracing kit for the IRS cradle) and a set of wheels/tires for the track.  And that's pretty much it.

The Performance Pack cars include not only bigger brakes, stiffer suspension and more rubber, but have additional chassis bracing and different programming in the stability control.  IMHO, a PP car is a good buy over a standard GT.  I do think the PP1 is a better value than the PP2... the gap is smaller between them than the gap to the standard GT, and most of it is the tires on the PP2.

You may have misread the post. I'm not talking about going and ordering a specific one. 

Im saying a dealer has an '18 base GT, not a performance Pack, heavily, heavily discounted. Like they are advertising it for $7000 off MSRP and I bet I could get some more off. So with the difference between that and a Lvl 2 PP, you could make something safe and reliable for much less than the $20k difference.

I know all about the extra stuff, I had a '13 track pack GT. And the Level 1 PP is the same.

dj06482
dj06482 GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/6/18 4:38 p.m.

My friend at work has a '15 GT without the PP.  He added the PP wheels/tires for a song from Craigslist, and then added the PP 6 pot Brembos/rotors/master cylinder/brake booster.  He recently did a two day session at Grattan and judged it as a success.

His other mods are very minor and OEM+ like an improved shifter and the PP bracing up font.

The GTs are a great value, I was tracking some base model GTs that were selling new for $26-27k last year.  That's a very capable car for that money!

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/6/18 4:47 p.m.
dj06482 said:

My friend at work has a '15 GT without the PP.  He added the PP wheels/tires for a song from Craigslist, and then added the PP 6 pot Brembos/rotors/master cylinder/brake booster.  He recently did a two day session at Grattan and judged it as a success.

His other mods are very minor and OEM+ like an improved shifter and the PP bracing up font.

The GTs are a great value, I was tracking some base model GTs that were selling new for $26-27k last year.  That's a very capable car for that money!

That was kind of my thinking :)

STM317
STM317 SuperDork
10/6/18 7:30 p.m.

I'd budget 10k:

GT350 brakes for all 4 corners are $2800

GT350 trans cooler is $630

GT350 Diff cooler is $2000 (wtf?!)

Wheels/Tires maybe $1800ish on the low end?

Give the rest to Maximum Motorsports or somebody.

Maybe recoup a little selling stock wheels, tires, and brakes?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/6/18 8:20 p.m.

I like it! 

 

I'm thinking take off PP1 front brakes, ducts. Find a torsen someone traded for a clutch diff, wheels and tires?

 

And a roll bar, seats, harnesses, and an oil cooler.

 

Does that sound reasonable?

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
10/7/18 11:44 a.m.

I maintain that you're better off holding out for a PP1 car, if tracking it is your intention.

I spent some time reading the thread posted above, and it appears a PP1 brake swap is not as simple as it first appears, requiring the PP1 master and booster as well as the front calipers and rotors.  In the thread, they never posted the cost of those parts, but I bet it wasn't cheap.

As I mentioned above, the PP1 isn't just wheels, tires and suspension.  You get a bigger radiator, torsen diff, different programming in the vehicle stability and abs, etc.  There's been a fair bit of discussion on the Mustang forums about this, and it's pretty expensive to bolt on all the PP1 parts after the fact, and you still won't have the stability programming.

There are deals out there on PP cars as well, just takes some looking.

My formula (budget version) for HPDE would be a discounted (or low mile used) PP1, then add:

19x11 wheels w/ 305/30-19 NT01s - $2500-3000

Ford Performance "track" shocks - $600

BMR SP083 springs - $250

Camber plates - ~$250-300

IRS cradle braces - $250

Brake pads of your choice and fluid upgrades

Rear diff cooler - ???  If needed, this looks to be pretty expensive, but the aftermarket hasn't really got moving on it yet.

The above is pretty much exactly what I plan to do.  Ours isn't going to be tracked more than a couple times a year, since our Miata is the primary track car, so I want to keep it streetable - thus no roll bar/seat/harnesses.  The above list is ~ $5k, and we were OTD for under $30k on our '17 PP1 (bought used w/4k miles).  Still well under sticker on a new PP1/2.

My biggest problem is we recently drove an '18 PP1 with the new A10 transmission... both the wife and I really liked it (and we both prefer manuals...).  We're considering trading up to a '19 next year if we can find a a really good deal on a PP1 with the A10, magnaride and active exhaust.  It's a good thing Grabber Blue isn't an available color for '19... cheeky

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/8/18 7:43 a.m.

The ABS/Vehicle Stability/EPS tuning is really the only thing that gives me pause. Torsen is nice as well, but since it's a Mustang and not something else, pretty affordable compared to other cars.

Oil cooler, changing the suspension, and different wheels (so you can go square) negate most of the rest of the package. 

 

 

modernbeat
modernbeat Dork
10/11/18 3:26 p.m.

The guys covered most of what you'd want to do to a base GT to track it and make it fun for the street without going too hardcore.

19x11 wheels with 305/30-19 tires, something like a Hankook RS4 works really well and has good longevity versus some of the more competition oriented tires.

Ohlins R&T and camber plates. This is good right out of the box. Has fairly stiff spring rates but low speed valving is setup for street comfort. It's the best all-arounder suspension we've used on the S550.

15" 6-Piston OEM brakes. These still fit under some of the 18" wheels, and are lighter and cheaper than the 15.5" GT350 brakes. And they are vented from the backside so you can run brake vents, unlike the 4-Piston 14" base GT brakes. Use a 600 degree brake fluid and run different street and track pads to get the most out of the brakes. Eventually you will have to add ducting to cool them.

The base seats are on par with what BMW was selling in the E36 M3, but they aren't as good as modern OEM Recaro seats. For a car that mostly sees street time, pay the bucks to buy the Recaros used and bolt them in. For a more track focused car, use a FIA seat, harness and rollbar.

Next on the list would be an LSD. We're about to test an inexpensive Auburn diff and see how it works. The new 8.8 IRS uses 34 spline axles, so not all the old diffs will work.

And that's it. No braces are needed. No myriad of GT350 parts. Once you really start pushing, yes, you will want a real oil cooler, and may eventually need help with the transmission and diff. Mishimoto already make a decent 2015-17 oil cooler than can be modified for the 2018-19 models. 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
10/11/18 3:42 p.m.

Can someone translate these acronyms? 

PP1, PP2 Lv, B-52, OMGWTFBBQ, etc...

I don't speak Mustang. 

 

dj06482
dj06482 GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/11/18 4:01 p.m.

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/2018-mustang-gt-performance-package-level-2

PP1 = Performance Pack 1 - basically a similar package to what's been available since 2011 on the Mustangs (was called the Track Pack earlier before the lawyers got involved)

PP lv2 - Performance Pack Level 2 - introduced on I believe the '18 Mustang, basically takes the PP1 car and cranks it to 11.

Dave M
Dave M New Reader
10/11/18 4:30 p.m.
dj06482 said:

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/2018-mustang-gt-performance-package-level-2

PP1 = Performance Pack 1 - basically a similar package to what's been available since 2011 on the Mustangs (was called the Track Pack earlier before the lawyers got involved)

PP lv2 - Performance Pack Level 2 - introduced on I believe the '18 Mustang, basically takes the PP1 car and cranks it to 11.

PP2 is brand new...a response to the Camaro SS 1LE, which would smoke the GT PP1.

Driven5
Driven5 SuperDork
10/11/18 5:09 p.m.

Does a stock base S550 GT actually need anything more than good brake pads/fluid to handle track days safely and reliably?

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS GRM+ Memberand Reader
10/11/18 5:26 p.m.

Are you paying all cash or financing?  Can you afford a romp through a tire barrier or. a rollover?  Sure the odds are low, but can you afford it?  If so, rock on.  

If not, I’d strongly consider something else for track use.  I guess seeing so many Mustang driver’s sack the tollway retaining wall at the DFW cars and coffee has scarred me.  Really youtube mustang cars and coffee and enjoy.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/12/18 8:58 a.m.
Driven5 said:

Does a stock base S550 GT actually need anything more than good brake pads/fluid to handle track days safely and reliably?

For my own sanity, an oil cooler and possibly diff cooler. Many guys are getting a light "Diff Overheat" on track in any temperatures that would be considered "summer." The diff isn't as big of a concern, because I never bother going to the track in Oklahoma in July/August. It's just too miserable. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/12/18 8:59 a.m.
AnthonyGS said:

Are you paying all cash or financing?  Can you afford a romp through a tire barrier or. a rollover?  Sure the odds are low, but can you afford it?  If so, rock on.  

If not, I’d strongly consider something else for track use.  I guess seeing so many Mustang driver’s sack the tollway retaining wall at the DFW cars and coffee has scarred me.  Really youtube mustang cars and coffee and enjoy.

Lockton Affinity. 

The idiots you see at C&C crashing their cars are NOT the guys who are taking their cars to a road course.

turtl631
turtl631 HalfDork
10/12/18 9:10 a.m.

I'm sure you realize this, but an ND2 will be a very different experience from a built Mustang GT on track.  since I started doing track days over a decade ago, I have to say that one of the things that impresses me most of all is how fast the modern Mustangs and Camaros are, in addition to the overall rise in speed of cars at track days.

 

That said, having tracked about half a dozen different cars of all flavors, I certainly have had more fun in smaller lighter more raw cars.  I have only driven an automatic ND1 but it was a lot of fun, and on a tighter track I imagine an ND2 with some mild mods would be a blast. Are your local tracks more tight or more flowing horsepower tracks?  The Mustang will be way faster anywhere, but I don't know that it will be that much more fun.  I think that, along with consumable costs, are probably the main considerations here.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/12/18 10:35 a.m.

^That's a good point. And it's part of why I'm wrestling with the ND2 vs Mustang. I've only ever tracked Miatas and sportbikes. 

Hallett is my local track and it's a tight track with roughly ~95 ft of elevation difference from top to bottom with a few blind corners. I received many point-bys in my 1.6 Miata there from faster machinery.

 

In reality, I wouldn't go to the track THAT often (and I want to try autocross finally). So convertible vs V8 roar. It's a tough one as I've owned a Coyote mustang before an both an NA and NC Miata. 

Both are very enjoyable in different ways. smiley

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
10/12/18 10:44 a.m.

For us, the Mustang is a more enjoyable daily driver than our NC PRHT was.  More power, more comfortable, quieter ride, decent handling and that Coyote V8.  We test drove an ND1 a while back, but the lack of a PRHT kept it from being a real consideration as a DD, and most of what we really loved about it was missing in the RF (not a roadster).  

There's no question the ND2 is a capable track choice, but on the road it will have the same drawbacks as all Miatas, and you know what those are.  Miata consumables are a lot cheaper, though.

 

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
10/12/18 11:32 a.m.

Another data point, since I just paid for HPDE insurance for our '17 Mustang for next weekend's trackday... through RLI it was $191.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/12/18 12:19 p.m.

What's the deductible on that? I think I haven't seen anything lower than $3k.

Driven5
Driven5 SuperDork
10/12/18 12:49 p.m.

How much cheaper than a (lowest spec you would consider) ND2 do you think you could get that Mustang for?  As much as I'm loving my recent (S197) Mustang acquisition, If kids weren't a consideration, for me persionally I think it would almost have to drop into a different price class entirely...Where the alternative would be waiting for used ND'2 to become a thing.  

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