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BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/15/16 10:06 a.m.

Specifically the MkII, back when LeGrand called it a Cheetah?

I've been toying with the idea of getting a "real" race car instead of fiddling with street cars with a time trials flair for a while, and I'm specifically drawn to sports racers for some reason. Plus, I'd prefer to go vintage racing instead of modern club racing.

An early LeGrand/Cheetah has come up for sale locally. Know I remember GRM had a bike powered LeGrand for a while (Per's, wasn't it?), but this one is much, much older and might also allow me to snaffle an entry into the Rolex Monterrey Historics due to its age.

That said, I don't know and can't find much about the early ones on the Internet. There are a couple of pages with a paragraph or two, but that's about it.

Anyway, this is the car.

And yes, that fuel cell placement gives me the willies.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/15/16 10:13 a.m.

Yes, Per had one that I believe belonged to his dad at one point.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/15/16 10:15 a.m.

I'd get it just for the steering rack it has! You ever driven one of those Autotopia cars?? Lol

T.J.
T.J. UltimaDork
7/15/16 10:17 a.m.

I was amazed when I saw that the ad lists the car for $1500. I was thinking either scam or deal of the century. Then when I got to the bottom of the description and it said $15,000 it made more sense.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/15/16 10:20 a.m.

Yeah, $15k sounded about right if it's complete and running. I'd like to avoid spending $15k on it and then another $15k to fix it up...

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/15/16 11:44 a.m.

I wish I could help- but that looks really cool. Love the idea of HM, with that sub 1.0l motor.

That's also the time frame that I've been curious about Alfa powered sports racers, but the most common one I've seen are Bobsy and Ausca.

motomoron
motomoron SuperDork
7/15/16 1:42 p.m.

If you're planning on racing with SCCA club racing, aka the only game in town, trying to race that will be like bringing a spork to a global-nuclear-war fight. It's an interesting vintage car though. Here's a great way to start in regional P2 class. I've been developing one of these cars for 5 years and can state with confidence this is a SCREAMING good deal.

Radical Prosport w/ all the good stuff, $12k!

fasted58
fasted58 UltimaDork
7/15/16 2:02 p.m.

Good site for all things sports racer:

http://sports.racer.net/index1.html

http://dsr.racer.net/chassis/legrand/history.htm

Vintage/ H-Mod forum page:

http://dsrforum.yuku.com/forums/4/Vintage-H-Modified/Vintage-H-Modified?page=1#.V4kxnPkrK_4

posts are older but may find something useful, maybe contacts

intrepid
intrepid New Reader
7/15/16 2:47 p.m.

Love old sports racers. Looking for a vintage-eligible project myself. I assume the price on this car is $15,000 not $1500...

In any case, cool car. I don't know much about the history of LeGrand, but I would assume this is a fairly early car and possibly historically significant. I don't see many H-mod cars running in the vintage races I attend, though I do know of several people who have converted H-mod cars to B sports racers using a slightly warmed over formula ford motor.

From my limited knowledge, it seems that H-mods ran a variety of oddball motors from modified outboards to old Saabs (mostly two strokes). This is one of the few that I have seen with a four stroke, and it seems like a cool motor. Still, the formula ford conversion would probably entail less headaches and would certainly be more economical.

I have seen some H-mod cars advertised in the 30-40K range, though I don't know if there are many people really willing to pay that much for one. 15K is a bit high for a car that probably needs significant work to be race ready, though it is difficult to assess value when dealing with vintage race cars.

It would be interesting to keep an eye on this car and see what happens with it.

-chris r.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/15/16 3:05 p.m.

From what I've been able to piece together so far it is a very early car (the Mk1 was a Formula 4 car so this might be the first sports racer LeGrand built). I know it's in no way competitive with modern cars (especially proper DSRs) but being slower its also likely to be more manageable for my limited skill set.

I emailed the seller, let's see if I hear back from him. And thanks for the links to the various forums, I'll have a poke around there, too.

intrepid
intrepid New Reader
7/15/16 4:10 p.m.

Here is a link to an old BAT auction for another H-mod car. Some interesing information in the comments:

http://bringatrailer.com/2010/08/21/unrestored-h-mod-1963-shirdlu-sports-racer/

-chris r.

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/15/16 8:49 p.m.
motomoron wrote: If you're planning on racing with SCCA club racing, aka the only game in town, trying to race that will be like bringing a spork to a global-nuclear-war fight. It's an interesting vintage car though. Here's a great way to start in regional P2 class. I've been developing one of these cars for 5 years and can state with confidence this is a SCREAMING good deal. Radical Prosport w/ all the good stuff, $12k!

Damn, that does sound pretty rocking!

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/15/16 9:56 p.m.

It looks like the car has been listed on Bring a Trailer auctions.

fasted58
fasted58 UltimaDork
7/15/16 10:17 p.m.
Kreb wrote:
motomoron wrote: If you're planning on racing with SCCA club racing, aka the only game in town, trying to race that will be like bringing a spork to a global-nuclear-war fight. It's an interesting vintage car though. Here's a great way to start in regional P2 class. I've been developing one of these cars for 5 years and can state with confidence this is a SCREAMING good deal. Radical Prosport w/ all the good stuff, $12k!
Damn, that does sound pretty rocking!

Sold

somebody got a helluva deal there

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/16/16 12:37 p.m.
Slippery wrote: It looks like the car has been listed on Bring a Trailer auctions.

Yeah, that's definitely the same car. That at least answered some of the questions. Currently waiting for a call back from the seller to see if this is going anywhere. My experience with old race cars very much suggests I need to check it out in person and see if I can fit the thing with my bad knees and all that. No point in buying it blind only to find out I can't get in and out.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/16/16 12:38 p.m.

And yes, that Radical was a screaming deal.

fasted58
fasted58 UltimaDork
7/16/16 3:35 p.m.

gonna follow that auction

.... interesting car

Tom1200
Tom1200 Reader
7/16/16 7:22 p.m.

Tim in my run group with VARA (small bore production, formula & sports racing cars) we have 3 or 4 sports racers and a couple of them are powered by Fiat motors. They go pretty well and I'll admit to being a bit jealous as I know I can win overall with one.

As for a modern DSR, yes they are a jump up in performance; the vintage sports racers are anywhere from 2 seconds a lap slower to 3 seconds a lap faster than I am with the Datsun dependent on car driver etc. By contrast when I had the single seat Yamaha powered DSR I turned lap times 30 seconds a lap faster than I do in the Datsun. I've driven when of the newer DSR Sthors with downforce and those are 3-5 seconds faster than our DSR was, so again its a reeeeeeealy big jump in performance.

Good luck on your bid.

Woody
Woody GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/17/16 10:06 a.m.

Vintage racing seems to be more enjoyable than actual racing.

stroker
stroker SuperDork
7/17/16 10:12 a.m.

Assume you were going to build a replica of that LeGrand. How much do you think it would cost?

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/17/16 10:37 a.m.
Woody wrote: Vintage racing seems to be more enjoyable than actual racing.

That's pretty much my thinking as well. Plus even if people are racing hard, they have more respect for each other's machinery (probably enforced by the crumple zones being peoples' legs and the fuel cell(s)).

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/17/16 10:39 a.m.
stroker wrote: Assume you were going to build a replica of that LeGrand. How much do you think it would cost?

Less than a real one for sure if you have the skills to build the space frame and body. It's not a complicated car.

Anyway, I'm about to take off to check it out in person. The seller seems to tinker with old race cars for fun/as a retirement job so he actually has a couple of others for sale that might even be more interesting.

I have a sneaking suspicion that I might come home rather broke from this trip.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
7/17/16 10:51 a.m.

Mark Cory is a guy in my car club that was a vintage racer for decades, with his brother. I think they both raced Mini's, or maybe one had a Sprite. His brother rolled his recently and they finally both decided to retire.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Reader
7/17/16 8:41 p.m.

Tim vintage is indeed a lot of fun and people are mindful of the cars value.

I drive pretty aggressively but I give people racing room; a couple of years ago I had a Vintage Formula Vee pull a slide job on me on the second apex of a double apex corner for 5th overall. It was fantastically timed and had we been in moderns I might not have left as much room. When I say room, I mean room for 3 wheels, I used to do much the same at SCCA regionals but only with people I knew could be trusted. The Vee driver is someone I trust.

I'm guilty of pulling slide jobs on a couple of Porsches at me last event; basically finishing the passes within about 5-10ft of the apex. Of course I'd rather spin my car or it in the dirt rather than make contact with someone's 2.0 911 that's now worth more than my house.

Vintage racers also know that swapping paint is going to be an instant black flag.

Vintage is about competing in a neat old car whereas moderns are often about be competitive in a beat old car. Note I seem to be fulfilling both with my less than pristine Datsun.

Hope hear you came back with a vintage race car.

Tom

Woody
Woody GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/17/16 8:45 p.m.

Soooooo........?

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