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Saron81
Saron81 HalfDork
10/22/20 11:15 a.m.

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) :

I agree with the dealer suggestion too. It may be a little more expensive initially, but they will stand behind their work, and they should be able to fix it correctly. For all the badmouthing that dealers get, they have factory training, equipment, and access to info and assistance nobody else has. When your independent place can't figure it out... that's where they go. The dealer can call Subaru for tech support if they're really stumped. Nobody else can do that. 

jharry3
jharry3 HalfDork
10/22/20 11:16 a.m.

Even if everything was bolted together properly every modification that is done to the intake or exhaust of the subaru turbo cars requires a re-tune.    You change to an after market air intake and it needs a re-tune.    I liked my WRX but decided not to go down that rabbit hole so kept it totally stock.

   Cobb makes money on their re-tuning Accessports for this reason.

Slippery (Forum Supporter)
Slippery (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/22/20 11:20 a.m.
Saron81 said:

I can't see that part of the intake (or any part before the airbox) having any effect on the cars drivability. You have something else going on. 
I'd still want it back however. 

I agree. 

Lots of shady shops and many shops with great owners have below average techs that do not care and just clock in and out. That's why I do as much as possible myself. 

Why is the oil level or coolant related to all this? Was that something he messed with in order to change the up pipe?

Also, none of the piping upstream of the turbo should cause the huge difference in boost levels, that is something downstream of the turbo. The up pipe by having no cat for example will have a effect and will probably yield higher boost than stock, doubt it will double but it will be a couple or so psi. 

Dont drive the car if its producing so much boost, its impossible to use your foot as a wastegate and you will end up with a burnt piston or a blown headgasket. Find the problem. 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
10/22/20 11:37 a.m.

Doc,

Sorry to hear of your troubles.  Similar personal experiences and experiences like yours are the reason I'm into my son's E39 530i up to my elbows.  What I don't know I can learn on the internet, but in this case, nobody gives more of a E36M3 than I do.

einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/22/20 12:20 p.m.

This is EXACTLY why I'm going to spend this weekend putting a suspension refresh in my wife's Accord myself, even with a bad back, vs. taking it anywhere to get the work done.  It will probably take all weekend, frustrate me at times, maybe hurt a bit, but I have confidence in the workmanship of the dork spinning the wrenches.  If nothing else, this thread validated my decision.

itsarebuild
itsarebuild Dork
10/22/20 1:04 p.m.

If it were me I would write a letter describing what conversations occurred, what you have seen and why that makes you concerned about the other items you can’t see. Explain your concern for possible damage from the boost spikes and unseen fasteners and explain that you therefore do not have appropriate use of what you paid for. Write all of this with no emotion... just facts and a request for what the shop will do to remedy the situation and a deadline for that response.

 

once that letter is clear concise, and well constructed to document your case, you can decide whether or not you can relate it verbally calmly and effectively.  If you can, call, if not, send. If you call and the shop owner puffs up at you first sentence politely hang up and send the letter registered mail.

 

even if you get nothing out of this transaction,  someone just like you is currently looking at their ad and considering hiring them. Getting your documentation and the shop’s refusal to correct our to BBB or other watchdog groups may save that other you.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/22/20 1:07 p.m.
pointofdeparture said:

In reply to EvanB (Forum Supporter) :

when I tried to find common ground by talking about rallying, got into a heated argument with a walking Ken Block/Monster Energy advertisement about how the famous Group B Audis couldn't have a five-cylinder engine because that was "physically impossible."

Well heck, that means I drove an impossible engined car to work today, and I have two impossible Audi and two impossible Volvo engines in my garage....

Saron81
Saron81 HalfDork
10/22/20 1:31 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
pointofdeparture said:

In reply to EvanB (Forum Supporter) :

when I tried to find common ground by talking about rallying, got into a heated argument with a walking Ken Block/Monster Energy advertisement about how the famous Group B Audis couldn't have a five-cylinder engine because that was "physically impossible."

Well heck, that means I drove an impossible engined car to work today, and I have two impossible Audi and two impossible Volvo engines in my garage....

This would've blown his mind:

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo SuperDork
10/22/20 1:36 p.m.

That missing intake duct isnt the cause of your surging....

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf Reader
10/22/20 2:29 p.m.

In reply to itsarebuild :

VERY good advice. And the OP already has written some of said letter here. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/22/20 3:13 p.m.
93gsxturbo said:

That missing intake duct isnt the cause of your surging....

Yeah, you're probably right. The theory from the shop in this discussion is that it's a missing or incorrectly sized boost restrictor pill. I just pulled the hose and probed it with a screwdriver. It's not missing. I'll be picking up a new hose assembly with what is supposed to be the correct restrictor pill for my pill when I get my inlet duct from him on Monday.

I called, voiced my complaints, got the "bring it by, I'll work on it myself." No, I'm not bringing it back. I'm not even driving it now. I told him that I feel like I'm going to need to have the parts removed and re-installed. I declined his offer of doing it himself. I can't trust this business.

I'm not done.

As for the boost surge, the precat was replaced with a non-cat up-pipe. That and the missing air inlet are the only deviations from stock. I was told that it wouldn't need a tune if I had the up-pipe replaced, but (and I realize how useless internet information is) the consensus on changing the intake is that would require a tune. The airflow volume and characteristics (turbulence, temperature, etc.) certainly would be different without the intake duct.

I'm really going to be stuck if the boost surge continues after changing the restrictor pill and replacing the air inlet. I don't know what do to after that, and I don't know who will be able to help me.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/22/20 3:16 p.m.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Turbulence is the big one.  Affecting how air enters the air filter will affect how it flows from the filter to the mass airflow sensor.  Airflow is not homogenous, and anything that affects the geometry before and after the sensor sample tube will affect how much of a percentage of the airflow is going through the sample tube.

 

i have seen getting a MAF clocked improperly cause huge issues. My favorite however was an air cleaner that wasn't clipped properly, and the car would run poorly or even stall when the radiator fan kicked on.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/22/20 3:20 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Thanks, Pete. That's encouraging. The air is pulling from a hole in the inner fender right now, so that's going to be affected by whether or not the fans are running, underhood temperatures, etc.

No Time
No Time Dork
10/22/20 3:24 p.m.

After reading Pete's post:

I wonder if the shop put the MAF in the wrong direction for flow?

Combine that with the missing ductwork sucking in warm air from the engine bay (and fans), and readings could be all over the place. 

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/22/20 3:28 p.m.

Boost spikes or "surge" is typically caused by a massive change in exhaust backpressure on turbocharged cars.

Put a stock up-pipe on it or put a different restrictor in the wastegate hose to improve its ability to control the boost.

Worth a try to experiment with different sizes.  It will either make things better, worse or not change at all.

 

TED_fiestaHP
TED_fiestaHP HalfDork
10/22/20 5:04 p.m.

  Sounds like you have no boost control, some just use the spring in the waste gate actuator to control boost.    But some use a pressure switch and a air control valve.  The pressure switch, will trigger the air control valve.  If the little hoses are not connected correctly to the little air control valve, you might have no boost, or no boost control.   This system has no pressure going to the waste gate actuator, until the control valve shifts.

LifeIsStout
LifeIsStout GRM+ Memberand Reader
10/22/20 7:13 p.m.

Also, I wouldn't sell the car for things like this, there is too much good left in it.  I had a Legacy GT and did have to get a tune after I did the catless uppipe (good call on doing that).

 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones HalfDork
10/22/20 8:04 p.m.

Don't let it go over the 60 day dispute window, all your power goes out the window. 
 

That being said, if he offers to correct it and you refuse, he will probably win the dispute. He's offering to fix it himself, at no charge, that's reasonable, maybe the shop just had a bad day. 
 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/22/20 8:47 p.m.

I don't think this qualifies for disputing the charges, so I'm not going to bother. 

I'm going to pick up the missing part and the restrictor pill on Monday. I could take the car back there, but I'm done with him. I'd rather pay someone else that I can trust than take back there for free.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/29/20 10:47 p.m.

I got the missing intake part installed. Boost was still erratic, but definitely smoother. The shop owner had the theory that the boost restrictor pill was the wrong size, so he had picked up a Pill that was sized correctly for my VIN.

Today, I installed the different pill, which did indeed have a visibly larger orfice, and tightened a couple of clamps while I was at it. That seemed to do the trick, it pulled smoothly. I don't have an aftermarket boost gauge, I'm using a readout from the ECU with a Scan gauge.

It's reading 20+ pounds at full throttle, which I don't think is possible. I've got to get a boost gauge so I can see what is truly going on. It's going to stay parked for the time being, both because I don't know if I'm overboosting and because it's got a power steering leak. Also, I still don't have confidence in the timing belt replacement. I'm going to have it pulled apart and redone.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/29/20 10:48 p.m.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:
Lof8 - Andy said:

I hope his name is not Ken either

Or Alan, apparently. 

 

docwyte
docwyte UberDork
10/30/20 9:46 a.m.

Hmmm, I wonder if it's adding atmospheric pressure?  The boost gauge on my VW will give me a 35lb reading, but I have to subtract ambient pressure, so 14.7 from that number to get the "true" positive boost pressure reading.

A little research will tell you that, or the easy button is a cheap mechanical boost gauge...

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/30/20 9:52 a.m.

In reply to docwyte :

Good question on the atmospheric pressure. I suspect that, but haven't been able to confirm it. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
10/30/20 10:48 a.m.

In reply to Saron81 :

How much of your life do you want to spend before accepting that like tens of thousands of others you've been screwed by a mechanic?  
 

it's your life. Spend it anyway you want. You won't get even,  you'll never get ahead but  sooner or later he will get  what's coming to him.  

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise UltraDork
10/30/20 10:49 a.m.
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

 Boost was still erratic,

. It's going to stay parked for the time being, both because I don't know if I'm overboosting and because it's got a power steering leak. Also, I still don't have confidence in the timing belt replacement. I'm going to have it pulled apart and redone.

What a headache!

WOW this is turning out to be one expensive subaru.... 

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