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JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
8/11/23 8:56 a.m.

There’s been a lot of buzz lately about Hyundai’s recently unveiled Ioniq 5 N. Yeah, it’s generating lots of chatter over Hyundai’s claims that it’s a truly track-capable EV, with full-session capabilities and quick charging for multiple shots at those apexes during that track day. 

[Hyundai debuts Ioniq 5 N at Goodwood]

Until more of them are out in the …

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z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/11/23 9:07 a.m.

Absolutely it can. 

Power-assisted brakes, power-assisted steering, etc, aren't those all artifical enhancements? But I also embrace DCT's, ABS, etc. I know I'm not Hammy or Alonso or Senna.

Colin Wood
Colin Wood Associate Editor
8/11/23 9:19 a.m.

I'm completely on board with EVs, and I'd even buy one today if I was more confident in the charging infrastructure.

I just hope, like J.G. said, that I can have some kind of ICE car for fun weekend drives or track days.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/11/23 9:25 a.m.
z31maniac said:

Absolutely it can. 

Power-assisted brakes, power-assisted steering, etc, aren't those all artifical enhancements? But I also embrace DCT's, ABS, etc. I know I'm not Hammy or Alonso or Senna.

I am reminded of the Douglas Adams quote where everything that existed before you were a certain age was just how the world worked, everything introduced after a certain age was something ruining the world.

 

I'm in your camp.  I'm endlessly amused by the idea that an automatic transmission, or ABS, or some weird artificial sound effect, dissociates one from the driving experience, but feel-numbing power steering or power brakes are A-OK.  Of course it isn't an all-or-nothing affair, but the hills people choose to die on are kind of interesting.

 

I like to call ABS, stability control, automatic transmissions, etc. "technology banned in Formula One".  It's all about the spin!  And speaking of which, if someone is going to do an artifical V8 soundtrack, make mine a DFV.

Colin Wood
Colin Wood Associate Editor
8/11/23 9:35 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Oh I like that idea. I'd love to be able to download all sorts of different engine sounds.

Why stop at cars? If you can make my Ioniq 5 N sound like a P-51 Mustang, sign me up.

gearheadE30
gearheadE30 Dork
8/11/23 9:37 a.m.

You'll never win me over on an automatic being more fun. *eyes the 4HP22 in the corner distatefully* But I'm sure glad they're trying, and I'd love nothing more than for them to prove me wrong. 

gearheadE30
gearheadE30 Dork
8/11/23 9:43 a.m.

The google wormhole into specs and whatnot led me to the N Vision 74, which somehow I'd never seen. I think the 5 N is pretty good looking, but if they make it look like this, and let me program it to feel and sound like I want it to sound....I'd definitely check it out. Yeah, make it sound like it has a feisty 07K in it with a good flappy paddle gearbox, and I bet it could coax a smile out of me. 

Berck
Berck Reader
8/11/23 9:56 a.m.

I'll throw some fuel on the fire with this Tesla exhaust system.  That one is even more interesting to me because it's aimed at those outside the car... I'm not even sure it's about having an authentic experience, it's about producing one for others?

I'm not sure asking whether it's an "authentic driving experience" is the meaningful question.  If you're having a fake driving experience it's not authentic--but if it's the driving experience you want, are you allowed to enjoy it?  I mean, that's up to you, not me.

For some of us, simply the knowledge that it's fake makes the experience less enjoyable.  I disabled the fake engine noise on my Focus RS because the obvious fakery of it detracts my driving experience.  Yet, if the noise were real, I'd enjoy it.

I think this is actually a totally separate discussion from driver assist technologies.  There's nothing un-authentic about automatic transmissions, ABS and power brakes.  One of the things I love about my Formula Vee is that it has none of those things.  It's got 4 wheels (that you can see from the cockpit!), a (terrible) manual steering box, (near-useless) unassisted brakes, and ridiculous Beetle swing-arm suspension.  It provides a fantastic driving experience; it's raw and poorly engineered and I love it.  But there's certainly nothing unauthentic about driving my Miata on the track with it's (by comparison) space-age suspension technology that insulates me from the track surface and makes me feel numb by comparison.  I have no idea what it's like to drive, say, a modern 911 on the track, and I'm not really interested, but whatever that experience is, it's still authentic.

But what if you start piping fake noises into a track car?  And maybe it has a purpose--  Maybe you think the tire feedback isn't good enough, so you pipe in some fake tire screaching.  Maybe the fake engine noise from your EV allows you to better modulate the "throttle" on corner exit?  Maybe you put the seat on hydraulics so that it gives you the sensation of the brakes locking up before they actually do so that you can better modulate the brakes?

You can see a path there that starts to seem more like sim racing in a real car on the track--and that's a less authentic experience for sure.  I'm not saying it's bad or de facto less enjoyable, but it's not authentic and it's not the experience I'm looking for.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
8/11/23 10:31 a.m.
z31maniac said:

 

Power-assisted brakes, power-assisted steering, etc, aren't those all artifical enhancements? But I also embrace DCT's, ABS, etc. I know I'm not Hammy or Alonso or Senna.

No, those are methods of controlling the vehicle.  I don't have any problem with automatic transmissions.  Whether controls are power-assisted or not is irrelevant.  They provide whatever mechanical feedback they provide, and that is authentic.

But anything that adds artificially-generated feedback is NOT authentic.  And not enjoyable to me.

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/11/23 10:38 a.m.

In reply to Duke :

Without devolving into a Morpheus-Matrix, Plato's Cave chin scratch of a discussion, I have driven fairly crude video games/sim setups (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Logitech Formula Force GP wheel) that had better steering feel and feedback than some rack-mounted electric power steering setups.

 

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
8/11/23 10:51 a.m.

Authentic or not it I find it completely pretentious.

It's like Jack in the Box changing it's name to Jacque En Le Boîte and having burgers named Le Grande Vache

The manufacturer is telling us they think we are so fragile that our minds will implode if we drive a car without an exhaust note.

If people like it or find it fun, that's fine but it doesn't make it any less pretentious.

 

 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
8/11/23 10:52 a.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Duke :

Without devolving into a Morpheus-Matrix, Plato's Cave chin scratch of a discussion, I have driven fairly crude video games/sim setups (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Logitech Formula Force GP wheel) that had better steering feel and feedback than some rack-mounted electric power steering setups.

I'm not arguing that point at all.

They may very well be better.  But they are not authentic.

 

chandler
chandler MegaDork
8/11/23 11:22 a.m.
Duke said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Duke :

Without devolving into a Morpheus-Matrix, Plato's Cave chin scratch of a discussion, I have driven fairly crude video games/sim setups (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Logitech Formula Force GP wheel) that had better steering feel and feedback than some rack-mounted electric power steering setups.

I'm not arguing that point at all.

They may very well be better.  But they are not authentic.

 

Sorry; if they exist, they are authentic.

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/11/23 11:27 a.m.

A slightly different take, maybe, just occurred to me.

 Any time and effort spent on mimicking something else detracts from the ability to discern and improve what the thing really is.

Time spent chasing something else's character is time wasted wandering down the wrong trails. Like Peter Brady looking for his personality, stop doing a bad Bogart impression and be a better whatever you are.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
8/11/23 11:40 a.m.
chandler said:
Duke said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Duke :

Without devolving into a Morpheus-Matrix, Plato's Cave chin scratch of a discussion, I have driven fairly crude video games/sim setups (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Logitech Formula Force GP wheel) that had better steering feel and feedback than some rack-mounted electric power steering setups.

I'm not arguing that point at all.

They may very well be better.  But they are not authentic.

Sorry; if they exist, they are authentic.

I disagree.  Fake wood grain is real fake wood grain, true.  But it is not authentic wood.

But it's pointless for me to belabor it further.

Jesse Ransom said:

A slightly different take, maybe, just occurred to me.

 Any time and effort spent on mimicking something else detracts from the ability to discern and improve what the thing really is.

Time spent chasing something else's character is time wasted wandering down the wrong trails. Like Peter Brady looking for his personality, stop doing a bad Bogart impression and be a better whatever you are.

This. ^^^^^^

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/11/23 11:44 a.m.
Tom1200 said:

The manufacturer is telling us they think we are so fragile that our minds will implode if we drive a car without an exhaust note.

A moderate skimming of anti-EV arguments suggests that they aren't entirely wrong.  Heck, half the reason people seem to hate CVTs is they don't hear the engine revving up and down, which makes them think they aren't actually accelerating.

As pointed out in the article, auditory feedback is visceral, and oftentimes subconscious.

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/11/23 1:06 p.m.

Also, and unrelated to the question of synthetic feedback...

"Corner Rascal?"

"Grin Boost?"

 I'm genuinely taken aback at this display of marketingspeak off the rails.

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
8/11/23 1:21 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Why not a simple whine or whirring noise; the faux exhaust still seems pretentious to me.......

ConiglioRampante
ConiglioRampante New Reader
8/11/23 1:41 p.m.

I'm all for the fake noise, make it sound like a WWII fighter plane, an 1800's steam locomotive, a V8, or a screeching cat...as long as it's JUST FOR YOU, piped into the interior of the vehicle for YOUR ears only.  
 

The aftermarket Howitzer-esque "pops-n-bangs" t00ner-boyz have really ruined automotive sound for me, surprisingly, much more than any fart-can exhaust on a 90's Accord ever did.  
 

 

 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/11/23 1:45 p.m.
gearheadE30 said:

You'll never win me over on an automatic being more fun. *eyes the 4HP22 in the corner distatefully* But I'm sure glad they're trying, and I'd love nothing more than for them to prove me wrong. 

porsche configurator says 911 carrera S with sport chrono package is *seven tenths* quicker 0-60 with PDK vs manual.  so i guess it depends how we define "fun".  personally, i'd still take the manual, but i'd be lying to myself if i said it's because the manual is the higher-performace choice.

VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic GRM+ Memberand Dork
8/11/23 1:49 p.m.

I want turbo pop off valve noises every time I lift off the throttle.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
8/11/23 1:57 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Why not a simple whine or whirring noise; the faux exhaust still seems pretentious to me.......

Or worse (IMO) are when they add extra noise to ICE cars to "enhance" the experience. No.... It sounds great without your little speaker piping in fake noise. Let me enjoy that instead. 

As for whether the enhancements take away joy, depends on how intrusive they are and how much they interfere. The TCS on the forte is intrusive and affects the throttle mapping, so I turn it to the first stage off. IT's still on, but not as intrusive as it was. Some EPS systems imitate feel with weight. That's not an enhancement, just a placebo. But a good PDK/DCT, great ABS and good throttle mapping are definitely good. 

Oapfu
Oapfu GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/11/23 2:13 p.m.

This is either hilarious or going to get me kicked off the patio:

  • These "fake engine noise" threads always make me think of the meme about a subwoofer for use with airpods
  • As it turns out, similar devices already exist.  It also turns out the manufacturer of such devices fully supports developers with API, SDK, and documentation.
  • We all know about the Torque app which reads OBDII.  It also supports custom displays and outputs.
  • Therefore, it should be a simple bit of code to get the two working together.

It is all just a spectrum of human-machine interface, from a simple shift light to a custom Torque app plugin.

RadBarchetta
RadBarchetta New Reader
8/11/23 2:20 p.m.
Duke said:
z31maniac said:

 

Power-assisted brakes, power-assisted steering, etc, aren't those all artifical enhancements? But I also embrace DCT's, ABS, etc. I know I'm not Hammy or Alonso or Senna.

No, those are methods of controlling the vehicle.  I don't have any problem with automatic transmissions.  Whether controls are power-assisted or not is irrelevant.  They provide whatever mechanical feedback they provide, and that is authentic.

But anything that adds artificially-generated feedback is NOT authentic.  And not enjoyable to me.

 

So what you're saying is that artificially generated inputs are ok, but artificially generated outputs are bad?

PT_SHO
PT_SHO New Reader
8/11/23 2:22 p.m.
Berck said:....

For some of us, simply the knowledge that it's fake makes the experience less enjoyable.  I disabled the fake engine noise on my Focus RS because the obvious fakery of it detracts my driving experience.  Yet, if the noise were real, I'd enjoy it.....

^This.

I think all Teslas should come with a standard sound ("Jetsons" air car comes to mind laugh) that varies with speed, or throttle setting.  This could add to the usefulness and feedback the driver gets from tires singing.  Accept this: the next generation will grow up with electric propulsion, make it have a useful sensory input to the driver.

But any fake "combustion" sound added - looking at you, BMW / Jaguar - or hum tube to transmit more engine sound - Ford, Chevy I think and there are more - would be enough to cause removal, disabling, or worst case prevent a purchase, IMO.

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